Management Matters

[matty b1]

Having said all this, I hope our assumptions are wrong and the management blows us away.

 

[Ghosrath]

Having said all this, I hope our assumptions are wrong and the management blows us away.

It probably will.

#InFrontierWeTrust

 

[Buffpuff]

I think people are getting more bent out of shape at the reaction of some in dismissing concerns or being condescending. Looking back through the thread it was very peaceful and civil in mentioning expectations don't look like being met. A couple of posters have taken it upon themselves to be less than helpful which has stirred the pot unecassarily.

I won't argue with that point. Compared to the RCTW forums this is about as a drama-free place I've ever been to.

 

[matty b1]

This is why I talk of "shortcuts". I'm all for adding choice and customisation to the management aspects, as long as it can safely be ignored by those people who aren't interested by it.

Very much agree. This is all we'd like, something the creative side of the game has completely.

 

[Curlyriff]

+1.

I've said it in this thread and others that management/simulation was the feature set I was looking forward to the most. The Devs have never given us ALL the goodies in the basket during a livestream so I didn't expect any less in yesterday's stream. Part of the fun with each build has been looking around and seeing what they didn't tell us. I'll reserve speculation on the topic until November 9th when the Beta goes live. I'm REALLY not trying to step on any toes here but it seems to me that some people are bent out of shape because the live stream didn't meet or exceed their expectations about management. We don't know what's in store for us in a week. Until then I'll keep my fingers crossed.

What Matty B said,

I am all good for giving feedback and have done so throughout, I suddenly say I am a little disappointed and so far it hasn't met expectations for management for myself and suddenly a few took offence that I say anything that may be slightly negative. And I was talking about things we have seen in management, the staff levels for instance is the biggest one with a rinse and repeat.

There is no going back stage for training, no time taken to do it, no feeling of the achievement that they have reached that level. Just a click, rinse and repeat system which many seem fine with but for myself and many others this is almost like a mobile game where you wait for energy (the month between allowing training again) and then clicking the button and poof, suddenly you now have a lvl.4 instead of lvl.3 janitor.

Going from 3 levels to 5 levels just prolongs this tedious clicking and does nothing to add to the game play. People are saying what does what we ask for add, well a sense of achievement, a sense of actually improving your staff, improving your park by doing something that feels meaningful.

What does clicking a button 'x' times over 'x' period add to the game other than a rinse and repeat button bash to get them trained just so they are done.

 

[tyczj]

Have you ever played Prison Architecture, you have to worry if the cell keeps them happy otherwise they will riot, if you give them extras it keeps them in check easier but can also lead to other things. There is a lot of depth with managing your prisoners and their AI is actually pretty good. Yeah it may not be at PC level but it is still impressive and they actually use a similar system to pathing the AI from place to place like when they are hungry and need to shower etc.


There is more to it than that though, stop talking rubbish. Yeah you can build a small cell with a bed and a toilet to get the basics needs but you can add more and it does make a difference to their stats in happiness and what they may do within the prison.

Sorry I play the game daily so there is that....try making a cell with lots of things in it for people who require a basic cell, they wont go in it.

There is a lot of depth with managing your prisoners and their AI is actually pretty good

yes the management stuff is good but because they had time/money to spend on it since their graphics obviously are not

 

[KoreBreach]

Oh, and before I get off my high horse...

Remember that the release date isn't the end of changes/additions to the game. Any future tweaks, expansions, etc. will certainly bring things that the majority of people want.

And yes... #InFrontierWeTrust.

 

[Curlyriff]

This is why I talk of "shortcuts". I'm all for adding choice and customisation to the management aspects, as long as it can safely be ignored by those people who aren't interested by it.

That is absolutly fine and happy with that but at the moment we only have the "shortcuts" version with no advanced option. Like everyone that wanted advanced move/rotate for everything and saying this is a must have because we are all super creative is no different really to me asking for some more advance management options that can be auto-toggled.

The problem with Management is some of it is more fundamental than other parts for it to either be there or not at all in that you can't often make say two versions of training work in the game because they would require two working paths compared to just not using a tool in the creativity side if you wished not to do so.

 

[Buffpuff]

What Matty B said,

I am all good for giving feedback and have done so throughout, I suddenly say I am a little disappointed and so far it hasn't met expectations for management for myself and suddenly a few took offence that I say anything that may be slightly negative. And I was talking about things we have seen in management, the staff levels for instance is the biggest one with a rinse and repeat.

There is no going back stage for training, no time taken to do it, no feeling of the achievement that they have reached that level. Just a click, rinse and repeat system which many seem fine with but for myself and many others this is almost like a mobile game where you wait for energy (the month between allowing training again) and then clicking the button and poof, suddenly you now have a lvl.4 instead of lvl.3 janitor.

Going from 3 levels to 5 levels just prolongs this tedious clicking and does nothing to add to the game play. People are saying what does what we ask for add, well a sense of achievement, a sense of actually improving your staff, improving your park by doing something that feels meaningful.

What does clicking a button 'x' times over 'x' period add to the game other than a rinse and repeat button bash to get them trained just so they are done.

I don't take offense for criticism. One man's treat is another man's poison. You like X brand. I like Y brand. Tis what makes us human in our differences. Considering the discussions that have spawned from this thread I'm hoping the Devs are taking notes. [up]

 

[xyphic]

Graphics =/= Gameplay

Artist =/= Programmer

What i'm trying to say is, great graphics and great gameplay can co-exist in the same game.

There's a huge level of interdependency between the two. In some aspects the relationship will solely exist between the UI and the gameplay logic and can probably be turned around quite quickly. In others, such as the implementation of vandalism and security, because of the high level of graphical fidelity there's a *lot* of animation work required to support what might be a relatively small amount of programming work (all the security guard and vandal animations, all the guest reactions, mascot reactions, art assets for broken benches, lights, etc., art assets for graffiti, animations for janitors when cleaning these up, or fixing benches, etc.).

Similarly, someone mentioned making the ride sequencer more complex by allowing customisation of segment length. But to do this realistically (i.e. without animation skips) you'd have to either create animations of different lengths (time-consuming for the art dept) or come up with a method of adapting the sequence to differing lengths (complex, probably involving both programming and art).

None of these problems are insurmountable, but given your resources you have to pick your battles. Frontier have chosen to go with a strong aesthetic, and that necessarily limits some gameplay freedom, sadly.

 

[Buffpuff]

Oh, and before I get off my high horse...

Remember that the release date isn't the end of changes/additions to the game. Any future tweaks, expansions, etc. will certainly bring things that the majority of people want.

And yes... #InFrontierWeTrust.

You forgot #InSamsBeardWeTrust

[big grin]

 

[Curlyriff]

Sorry I play the game daily so there is that....try making a cell with lots of things in it for people who require a basic cell, they wont go in it.



yes the management stuff is good but because they had time/money to spend on it since their graphics obviously are not

Why keep bringing up the graphics, they don't have to be separate and why should we only have half of what we as managers would like compared to the creative side.

In regards to cells in Prison Architecture, I have had no issues with that myself. Also not all prisoners need everything which means their AI is advance enough to know what they want to make them happiest and you have to tailor your cell to suit. Sorry but you are making an argument against yourself or missing the point we are all making.

 

[xyphic]

That is absolutly fine and happy with that but at the moment we only have the "shortcuts" version with no advanced option.

*as far as we know.

Not saying there'll be any more depth than has been shown, but it's hard to judge before we get our hands on it. I completely understand where you're coming from, and come beta-time if you don't find the game fun with the level of management depth that we're presented with, I'll happily get behind suggestions for improvement (as long as they can be shorted! [tongue]).

 

[tyczj]

Why keep bringing up the graphics, they don't have to be separate and why should we only have half of what we as managers would like compared to the creative side.

I keep bringing it up because that is extra time/money that is spent on something (or not) instead of another area (aka management). there are budgets and deadlines for games you know, even for self publishing companies

 

[matty b1]

tyczj, just keep in mind the main thrust of the discussion though. We were expecting 'simulation evolved' and it doesn't look like we're getting that. The graphics etc are secondary to this. I understand your point of limited time and money for the developers though.

This brings me to a fear I had many months ago actually. When I was seeing all the great stuff Frontier was doing on the creative side, I was amazed. Then, numerous threads would open up with people asking for many many things such as plazas (I was one of them) to changing the color of rides to lights that worked during the day to entertainers that would remove their costumes for breaks. I began to worry that management wasn't being spoken about and Frontiers time was running out until release. Of course I trust Frontier (they have done amazing work) and I assumed they had a plan they were working towards.

But I must say it does feel like management has not been given nearly as much attention and I wonder if it's a case of the squeaky wheel got the oil and because the creative side was shown first, almost every desire has been implemented for the creative side and there simply isn't time to do the same for the management?

I'm fascinated to know how things developed behind the scenes. Part of my love for management I suppose.

 

[Curlyriff]

I don't take offense for criticism. One man's treat is another man's poison. You like X brand. I like Y brand. Tis what makes us human in our differences. Considering the discussions that have spawned from this thread I'm hoping the Devs are taking notes. [up]

Aye [happy] and wasn't aiming at anyone particular, just a collective feeling I was getting from people for speaking my mind on what I feel could improve in the game for our particular 'Y' as at the moment all the feedback has been for 'X' as such.

We have seen our first real glimpse and it shows clearly that some things are not happening that was expected to be here. I don't understand why people feel the need to suggest it's not needed because they don't want it but was so vocal about say plaza's or stairs or water dynamics but asking for something in the same vein when it comes to management because we can see that it's not currently in because of any number of reason seems to cause such issue.

I am still chilled not grumbling at anyone or anything and know it's a discussion, however it does feel like some pick and choose when we are allowed to ask about it and say this feature seems missing when it suites them [sad]

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I keep bringing it up because that is extra time/money that is spent on something (or not) instead of another area (aka management). there are budgets and deadlines for games you know, even for self publishing companies

I do get that view point, however why make a game that is a tycoon game about designing and building and then managing a park if you are cutting the management side short. I don't believe this is the reason and feel it is more that they are happy with the management side of the game with what they are providing.

And why should then the visuals take center stage over the management which is how it's feeling to a lot of us at moment when we believed they were putting in as much love into both parts of the game. I am only saying that does not feel like management really matters to them in the same term as the design and creativity has.

 

[tyczj]

tyczj, just keep in mind the main thrust of the discussion though. We were expecting 'simulation evolved' and it doesn't look like we're getting that. The graphics etc are secondary to this. I understand your point of limited time and money for the developers though.

I do agree but "simulation" is a broad definition and means meany different things. they probably shot them selves in the foot no matter what they do by saying that

 

[KoreBreach]

I think that Frontier is keeping a lot of the basic management stuff, but also looking at management from another perspective that other games generally don't. There are some huge differences that make a theme park game different from the other types of games mentioned. There are a lot of differences between WHAT you manage.

PC is heavy on managing the perception of peeps. What interests them, the scenery, food, rides, etc. that they like. Nearly everything revolves around keeping peeps happy (so they spend money). There is a HUGE amount of management necessary to do that well.

PC *appears so far* to be less concerned about staff training (currently). While there are levels, we don't see (yet) if those levels are tied to what they can do, what tools they can use, etc. We know that the levels are tied to efficiency (in cleaning, entertaining peeps, etc.). We know that the levels (training), balance how they feel about their pay, how overworked they are, and the way they walk around the park. That, in turn, affects their effectiveness. Right now, your inputs to this system are not only "increase their level" (training) when they are unhappy, but also reducing their workload and adjust their pay. So, they need training, pay, and a fair workload. Eventually this also affects guest-peep happiness by keeping the park clean and the people entertained.

It isn't just a creative vs. management discussion. Peep happiness management is management also. Frontier has been excelling at this. Given enough time, this will likely influence more than the current three inputs into staff management.

Shop management is a whole other discussion. Shopkeepers follow "staff management" (including being overworked), but what they sell, and options available, are more about peep management.

 

[Curlyriff]

This was in another thread but thought it relevant here as shows another thing that I was hoping to see that does not appear to be implemented based on what the UI shows us.

I was just hoping rather than say selecting from a list of advertising campaigns that we would higher a marketing manager, we could train them specifically with an advance training panel, in a marketing building which is back stage which would then be able to unlock different types of advertisement such as the late show as shown in game or say Facebook advertising or tweeter feed etc.

That to me at least gives us options on what and who we train. How it interacts with the design of the park and a bit more depth into working with the stuff we already know.

However due to the way the game is set and what we have been shown then I can clearly see that more staff & advanced staff training are not going to be options at least certainly by launch and I would suggest that it would not happen after release because of all the changes that the game would require to account for this.

And this...

No problem and with this "- There is not enough things to unlock other things that unlock other things for you " yes in reality, it is that I want to go from A to B to C to D by achieving goals and similar. If management is really deep you could also then even go from A to C without needing B by side stepping it by say hiring a senior ride attendant for instance rather than training them

I would like to see the buildings so that we could select them to manage the relevant staff from there. It would add that we need to manage the backstage area to be efficient (don't want it miles away and staff take a week to get to the park but can't place it in the middle of the park and not expect it to affect how your guests view it.

From this it would allow you to control training of specific staff types. It could even be that the group training for say "waste management" is done as bulk from this building but you still get the 5 staff levels for their person. I would say though to have seen a "sims" system where they have attributes with points allocated and you train them by them doing 1 hour of "waste management" is also an option as this would then add say 1 skill point and their efficiency increases.

There are ways to add depth that feel meaningful rather than click button 'A' to get result 'B' and repeat this for all staff no matter what they are doing.

and yes you are right, being able to train those staff members already in the park as you are auto hired would have been great. To say train the cashier so they have better "customer relations" or "salesmanship" are for instance stats that the janitor would not need and so it feels specific and relevant that to me makes it just that little more involved and like I am managing and not button bashing till I can't anymore which I hated about RCT3 and really dislike that it has made a return with a longer grind time by just upping it to 5 levels form the previous 3.

 

[zmego]

All of you complaining about the lack of management detail would be terrible at managing a software development company.

Entertainment companies are here to make a profit, that is how they stay in business and are able to make us more games/sequels in the future. Do you think they make this profit by gearing the game towards the 5% that want it ultra realistic and overly complicated? Or do you think they make money by appealing to the 95% who want something fun to play where they can let their creative side run wild? In depth management is fun, but the "meat" of this game is creating a one of a kind theme park that guests will enjoy.

Frontier is truly unique because they are actually trying to do things that "most" of the community would like to see while trying to develop a game that will appeal to the masses and I for one think they have done an incredible job.

This community is great and large, but for the sake of success I hope that this community ends up only being 5 or 10% of the whole after release. And I can guarantee you that the other 90% who buy this game will be blown away.