Maybe FDev could decide whether Painite is special or not?

[Stealthie]

If we look at the price of something like, say, Water on EDDB, we see that there's a whole heap of places you can sell it for ~Cr1,900 per ton.
This makes sense because it's obviously a common item and there's a large market for it, thus there's a whole heap of places that buy it and the market is pretty stable.

If we do the same for something like Gold, again we see that there's a heap of places that buy it for ~Cr67,000 per ton.
Gold is, apparently, more valuable than water but there's still a large, stable, market for it.

Platinum is, currently, more valuable than Painite and if we look at EDDB we find that there is, once again, a whole heap of places that buy it for ~Cr290,000 per ton.
So, even though Platinum is a rare commodity, there's still a fairly broad, stable, market for it.
For the sake of accuracy, the difference between ALL the top selling places listed on EDDB is only 2.8%.

So, now let's look at Painite...

On EDDB, the list of top places to sell Painite show prices ranging from Cr214,000 to Cr289,000.
That's a difference of up to 35% - more than ten times as volatile as Platinum, which is more valuable.

In fact, let's take a quick look at upper market spread for a few mining commodities comparable to Painite.

LTDs: Cr335,097 - Cr358,698. Spread of 7%
Platinum: Cr287,823 - 296,138. Spread of 3%
Osmium: Cr259,373 - Cr269,893. Spread of 4%
Painite: Cr214,034 - 289,126. Spread of 35%

So, the question is, if Painite is now a not an especially desirable commodity, WHY are the prices still so volatile?

Yes, I get that prices and demand are influenced by player activity but it doesn't explain why there are far fewer systems buying it for a reasonable price or why the selling price varies so much.
It seems like FDev have nerfed the value of Painite to bring it into line with comparable commodities but they've left the variables that control supply & demand as they were when it was super-valuable.


Thing is, I enjoy laser-mining, so if I'm going to do it I might as well mine Painite.
I don't really mind that I can now only expect to earn ~Cr280,000 per ton for it, instead of ~Cr900,000 per ton.
What I DO mind, however, is going to one market after another and finding the buying price is nowhere near the top end of the market price.
And if I resort to EDDB to locate a good selling market, it stays that way for, literally, a couple of minutes and then the bottom falls out of the market.
And, due to the huge price-range, the next-best place will be 20% less, and then 30% less etc.
The faff of hunting around, looking for a market with a reasonable selling-price just makes me think I might as well not bother.

It either needs for the price to be extremely high and the market to be volatile OR for the price to be more modest (as it currently is) and the market to be stable (like other, comparable, commodities).

Pick a lane, FDev.

 

[Stabby_Dave]

If you're selling using a cutter or T9, prices will be lower. They vary depending on how much is in your hold. Not sure of the actual figures, but I think it's linked to what percentage of total demand you're carrying.

 

[efoo]

I suspect there are still a lot of commanders mining and selling painites, thus when you check Inara for stations buying painite at high prices, many have zero to low number demands, that's why painite is not a good material to mine now compared to those other high priced metals and minerals. Maybe if all the commanders stop mining painites and then over time the supply will dry up, the demand and price will come up again. But as long as many commanders keep mining painites, the price is going to stay low.

 

[Stealthie]

I suspect there are still a lot of commanders mining and selling painites, thus when you check Inara for stations buying painite at high prices, many have zero to low number demands, that's why painite is not a good material to mine now compared to those other high priced metals and minerals. Maybe if all the commanders stop mining painites and then over time the supply will dry up, the demand and price will come up again. But as long as many commanders keep mining painites, the price is going to stay low.

It's not the price that's really the issue, so much as the volatility of the market.

I mean, I'm pretty sure that there are at least as many people mining LTDs as Painite but they're only seeing a 7% spread in selling price.
You mine LTDs, you find a decent market to sell them and you're likely to get within 7% of the highest possible price.

With Painite, there'll be ONE place offering the highest price, a couple offering roughly 20% less and the majority of "good" markets offering up to 35% less.

Something's badly out of whack.

 

[Stealthie]

If you're selling using a cutter or T9, prices will be lower. They vary depending on how much is in your hold. Not sure of the actual figures, but I think it's linked to what percentage of total demand you're carrying.

We're not talking about my personal experiences, although I use a Clipper with a maximum capacity of 128t to take stuff to market.

We're talking about comparing the prices logged by EDDB - and comparing like with like across different, comparable, commodities.

You're likely to be able to sell LTDs, Osmium and Platinum for around 95% of the best possible price.
With Painite, you're only likely to get 65% of the best possible price.

 

[Eshackleton]

I guess you could view painter as a very valuable material that is only needed occasionally for niche purposes. When it is needed for whatever its used for the value skyrockets. when its not needed there is demand at lower prices.

 

[efoo]

It's not the price that's really the issue, so much as the volatility of the market.

I suspect the demand also has an influence on the volatility of Painite price. Maybe the buying price of many stations are around 300K, but so many commanders are keeping a keen eye on the market price so when a station starts offering 300K, that station is immediately swamped with sellers, so many of these stations have demand filled and their prices immediately drop to 200K. When you check Inara or EDDB prices, you only see one station offering 300K because that station only just been offering that high price not long ago, all other stations who were offering 300K earlier have their demand filled, so their prices now drop to 200K. Often when you rushed and flied to that one station offering 300K price, by the time you got there, its demand has been filled up nearly full, its offering no longer near 300K.

P.S. Basically it is not worth concentrating on painite mining as your main and only source now. Better concentrate on other metals and/or minerals.

 

[metatheurgist]

This is good. The price variances shouldn't be that high anyway. Let's return to the days when having a refinery with more than one slot was useful and more than one thing was worth mining.

 

[Jmanis]

Inlcuding Painite and LTDs (laser mined commodities) into the same price variance group as core minerals and for the purposes of hotspot generation was a completely bizzare move by FD. It feels like a hangover from when your could even hotspots for things like Bauxite or Indite, but people complained about that...

WRT the water/gold markets, I've found at least historically they tend to make sense; a single trader can exhaust a palladium/gold market and nix that run, but it's very difficult if not impossible to exhaust the market for water... so the tradeoff has always been:

• Higher margins, harder to fill your hold; vs
• Lower margins, easier to fill your hold

... from markets.

What completely befuddles me then is commodities like Methane Clathrates, Methanol Monohydrate, Hydrogen Peroxide and the like; mining-only commodities which are worth around the same as water, but are as difficult if not moreso to get than things like painite, LTDs and such. People say "Oh well some things are simply worth more than other things"... yes, but "worth" or "value" are created as a combination of demand and scarcity.

These cheaper mining-only commodites are in way bigger demand than things like Painite and LTDs, and are (arguably) more scarce, so how can they be so worthless by comparison (and nobody mention De Beers; market manipulation and "fake demand" are abberations of normal market influences and are not present or represented in the game whatsoever).

If FD want to keep low-value mining only goods in the game and to have any relevance, there needs to be ability to rapidly harvest these materials in substantially larger quantities than their more expensive counterparts.

(and nobody mention "Oh but I stash them in my FC and just feed to missions either"... this has been an issue since well before FCs appeared... retrospective justification is no justification whatsoever, and the ability to easily complete a solo "fetch me 45t of Methane Clathrates for 2m reward", common on many markets, should not be dependant on a 5b credit asset).

 

[Eraden]

I can't recall seeing any hot spots other than Painite in metallic rings. Does anyone out there know if Osmium or Platinum hot spots actually exist in the game?

 

[Jmanis]

I can't recall seeing any hot spots other than Painite in metallic rings. Does anyone out there know if Osmium or Platinum hot spots actually exist in the game?

I think they do. Would need to double check. Bauxite and other types did exist, but they got patched out.

 

[efoo]

Platinum hotspots yes.
Osmium hotspots no.

 

[Jmanis]

Platinum hotspots yes.
Osmium hotspots no.

I swear I've seen Osmium at rocky belts or something. I'm probably wrong though.

 

[Oytis57]

I can't recall seeing any hot spots other than Painite in metallic rings. Does anyone out there know if Osmium or Platinum hot spots actually exist in the game?

Platinum yes,Osmium never seen one.

 

[Oytis57]

If we look at the price of something like, say, Water on EDDB, we see that there's a whole heap of places you can sell it for ~Cr1,900 per ton.
This makes sense because it's obviously a common item and there's a large market for it, thus there's a whole heap of places that buy it and the market is pretty stable.

If we do the same for something like Gold, again we see that there's a heap of places that buy it for ~Cr67,000 per ton.
Gold is, apparently, more valuable than water but there's still a large, stable, market for it.

Platinum is, currently, more valuable than Painite and if we look at EDDB we find that there is, once again, a whole heap of places that buy it for ~Cr290,000 per ton.
So, even though Platinum is a rare commodity, there's still a fairly broad, stable, market for it.
For the sake of accuracy, the difference between ALL the top selling places listed on EDDB is only 2.8%.

So, now let's look at Painite...

On EDDB, the list of top places to sell Painite show prices ranging from Cr214,000 to Cr289,000.
That's a difference of up to 35% - more than ten times as volatile as Platinum, which is more valuable.

In fact, let's take a quick look at upper market spread for a few mining commodities comparable to Painite.

LTDs: Cr335,097 - Cr358,698. Spread of 7%
Platinum: Cr287,823 - 296,138. Spread of 3%
Osmium: Cr259,373 - Cr269,893. Spread of 4%
Painite: Cr214,034 - 289,126. Spread of 35%

So, the question is, if Painite is now a not an especially desirable commodity, WHY are the prices still so volatile?

Yes, I get that prices and demand are influenced by player activity but it doesn't explain why there are far fewer systems buying it for a reasonable price or why the selling price varies so much.
It seems like FDev have nerfed the value of Painite to bring it into line with comparable commodities but they've left the variables that control supply & demand as they were when it was super-valuable.


Thing is, I enjoy laser-mining, so if I'm going to do it I might as well mine Painite.
I don't really mind that I can now only expect to earn ~Cr280,000 per ton for it, instead of ~Cr900,000 per ton.
What I DO mind, however, is going to one market after another and finding the buying price is nowhere near the top end of the market price.
And if I resort to EDDB to locate a good selling market, it stays that way for, literally, a couple of minutes and then the bottom falls out of the market.
And, due to the huge price-range, the next-best place will be 20% less, and then 30% less etc.
The faff of hunting around, looking for a market with a reasonable selling-price just makes me think I might as well not bother.

It either needs for the price to be extremely high and the market to be volatile OR for the price to be more modest (as it currently is) and the market to be stable (like other, comparable, commodities).

Pick a lane, FDev.

Painite (and some other stuff) was artificially "inflated" at a certain point for reasons (allow people to buy FCs),now is back to normal,also economy (and markets behaviour) have never been done right in ED since start,nothing new under the sun.

 

[gooddoc]

Painite is now added to my 'ignore' list, as Stealthie explains, it's a lot more difficult to offload at stable high end prices in the market place, than Platinum & Osmium.
Those two are now my goto guys for mining in Metallic Rings..........so far, it's a better guaranteed return for my Exploromining trip I'm doing.
Exploration is my main activity, however I'm set up to scan all Metallic Rings I encounter & mine a Cutterload from Platinum hotspots I come across, for Platinum & Osmium - this is only to part offset the cost of refuelling my Carrier for it's next trip.....& the results are quite good for my laser mining.
Not bothering with Icy Rings yet, well not until I need to boost my Tritium supply, which so far I'v not needed to do. So not certain whether Mining for LTD's is still a viable option for me.
As for Core Mining, well I'm out Exploring with Mining as a secondary activity, so unless I stumble across a Core, I'm not going to bother looking.

Until the selling price for Painite stablises & almost guarantees a price variance that's more useful to me, I'll leave it alone..........Painite was useful to me 18 months ago, it funded my Carrier with billions to spare.
Now I really can't be ARX'd travelling from one disappointing selling Station to another, just to hopefully get a decent price for it.

 

[K Olley]

I swear I've seen Osmium at rocky belts or something. I'm probably wrong though.

Osmium and Samarium can be found in rocky belts and rings but neither have hotspots that I have seen recently.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

LTDs: Cr335,097 - Cr358,698. Spread of 7%
Platinum: Cr287,823 - 296,138. Spread of 3%
Osmium: Cr259,373 - Cr269,893. Spread of 4%
Painite: Cr214,034 - 289,126. Spread of 35%

So, the question is, if Painite is now a not an especially desirable commodity, WHY are the prices still so volatile?

In terms of the game mechanics behind it...

1. Primarily, very different state tables. Platinum and Osmium prices are especially boosted by Boom, which is very commonplace, and not much else. So the top end of the market is all in Boom, all with similar prices. Painite and LTDs are boosted moderately by several different states, with Painite additionally boosted heavily by Public Holiday or Pirate Attacks - states which can only last a couple of days. LTDs best major combination seems to be Boom+Expansion - rarer than just Boom, but still common galaxy-wide - with Pirate Attack helping a bit.
2. Secondarily, Platinum has ten times the demand of Painite/LTDs, Osmium has ten times the demand of Platinum. That means all else roughly equal, 10x and 100x faster demand regeneration for Platinum and Osmium. So even if most people aren't mining Painite, there won't be 100x as many people mining Osmium. Because of the above state table differences the Osmium/Platinum sales will be more spread out, and the LTD sales will still be more spread out than the Painite

Commodities with heavy state table dependence will look volatile on the metric you're using, regardless of whether they're "desirable" or heavily used by players.

Ceramic Composites now: Cr5,445-Cr10,515. Spread of 93%
Ceramic Composites on a good day where its super-state combination exists anywhere: Cr 5,445-Cr27,000. Spread of 496%

...even more basic goods than that:
Power Generators: Cr3,649-Cr4,492 (23%)
Water Purifiers: Cr3,060-Cr4,628 (51%)

So, the volatility [1] you're looking at is basically "does the top state combination occur at >25 stations at once, or <25 stations at once"

Having some goods with reliable prices, and some goods which are occasionally a bit better but usually lower, is needed to make the markets interesting - the trade side of things has had plenty of examples of this for a while now.

[1] One issue of the "spread" metric is that on days where the super-rare combination doesn't occur at all, the spread looks lower despite the good actually being even more volatile, as in the Ceramic Composites example. (It's possible that this is also why LTDs look so low, not sure)

WHY are the prices still so volatile?

In terms of in-universe logic [2], Osmium and Platinum are valuable commodities with important industrial and technological uses, so they behave similarly to the other cheaper metals, with mainly economic states boosting the price.

Painite is a gemstone useful only for decoration, so it behaves similarly to the core-only gems with mainly event states boosting the price. As the Painite market has famously been a bit saturated, it's "last season's" gem and so less valuable than the others, though.

[2] Which is deteriorating rapidly as far as the relative prices of trade goods goes. Non-minable goods pricing is now a complete mess. But that's a separate complaint...

 

[K Olley]

Painite is now added to my 'ignore' list, as Stealthie explains, it's a lot more difficult to offload at stable high end prices in the market place, than Platinum & Osmium.

I don't go too far out into the black, but I now treat Painite the same as some as the better priced laser mined commodities, throw it in the carrier hold and offload it by the cutter full and say thank you rather than running around for top price

 

[Stealthie]

I don't go too far out into the black, but I now treat Painite the same as some as the better priced laser mined commodities, throw it in the carrier hold and offload it by the cutter full and say thank you rather than running around for top price

That doesn't work well, though, due to market volatility.

Basically, even if Painite has a theoretical value of, say, Cr300k/t, chances are you're only going to get around Cr200k/t when you sell it, unless you're prepared to hoof around the galaxy at a time when everybody else is asleep.