Mr. Brookes please confirm this lore change.

[Allen Stroud]

Thanks Allen. I've managed to listen to it now, took a long old while to get around to main subject!

You sheepishly admit that you knew pretty much knew about this "lore change" for two years, that's a very well hidden elephant in the room! :x I've no issue with you knowing about it and not telling anyone, I think that's fair enough, as you say it's FD's responsibility to do the "reveals". I'm very surprised that it appears that Drew Wagar and Dave Hughes didn't know about this (at least that's my interpretation from their websites), so maybe a lot of other things have happened since you made the discussion documents. It's Frontier's right to decide what is "official"for ED, but I feel they also have a moral responsibility to respect other people's efforts, i.e. not telling Dave Hughes what he's written is rubbish, having let him stay on this track for 2+ years - I'm sure he didn't have 100000 words just based on the FFE ending and there are other backstory changes yet to be revealed.

Okay. Firstly Drew Wagar was not involved in the history development process. He is one of the official fiction writers, but didn't take part in the development of the guides.
Secondly, Dave Hughes was introduced to the process by me (which Frontier graciously accepted). His work was (and is) excellent, but he worked on very specific sections.
T James was brought into the process by Frontier to work on one specific guide. So, the three writers who were involved were Me, T James and Dave.
Thirdly, Dave Hughes' development process with Frontier is between Dave and Frontier. I consider it an absolute privilege to be Dave's friend and to have met him and worked with him through all of this, but I'd be careful (and I think Dave would agree with me) to make the assumptions you've made in terms of development feedback. Bear in mind, up until his recent reply from Frontier, I was editing the Elite Encounters RPG for him and sent feedback literally a day before they did (I think).

In the stream you and the others talked about something that has been requested many many times in the past and even more so since DJTruthSayer's unofficial reveal - yes we need full and complete history/backstory guide. I would love to see your compilation from the early days, but from FD's refusal of this, and Drew's and Dave's pages, it sounds like they're still not interested in sharing a detailed, leaving it to our imagination instead (like everything else). However, won't new licensees need this information? So maybe Frontier have updated your original contribution.

I am absolutely sure they have, they would need to to manage the vast amount of content being generated by the continual existence of the game. The point I made with regards to releasing lore information (which I think is most important) is seeing the business case for this from Frontier's point of view. I actually think there's a great case to be made, but you are unlikely to see direct sales based on a downloadable lore guide. However, if it was written correctly (see my work on Chaos Reborn) you can aim to try to help people stay engaged with your franchise for longer by giving them things to try to find and explore, which takes us all the way back to generation ships and the like in the original game.

I agree with you, (although I've needed time to work through the academic process and ramifications of this) that it would be better to release a history document. However (and this is part of my thesis and attached to the business case point above) once you do that, you solidify that information and we end up right here again when someone decides to change something. What you actually need is a carefully thought out process of lore development that ensures you maintain your step ahead of the released material.

I've certainly made posts in the past related to 'the main behind the curtain.' If you think its irritating when something is changed, it's even more irritating and disappointing when you find there's nothing beyond what you know and people are making it up as they go along. That's not me suggesting this is happening here, but you only have to look at Lost (The TV series) for a good example of that.

You offered to help us through this grieving process! Can you tell us which of the FFE journal entries are valid? Which parts of the gazetteer, novellas, tales from the frontier, etc. Like I said to Michael in an earlier post, we don't want spoilers, just to know what's what. I daren't ask about ships, I dread what I might hear (I personally don't see the point of saying they never existed, but I'm sure it'll happen).

Okay, I can say the journal entries from Mike Cook's site are something we used in developing guide material. Andrew Gillet introduced the website link and I have personally thanked Mike several times for maintaining his site as the information there was invaluable for compiling what we did.

I can't go through each entry and tell you what is 'true' and what isn't. I'm sorry, there's just too many. Some things I can say. 1. Hengest Duval's age probably hasn't changed (as far as I know). 2. The Antaraes Incident has already been referenced in current Elite: Dangerous news, 3. The missing artefacts plot was one of the hardest things to get my head around when reading it. 4. Jjagged Bbanner are still rocking out there somewhere. 5. The Rast family is mentioned in the current fiction.

However, you will find some of the entries were included and added to in Lave Revolution. The 'Soholian Fever' entries were used as part of the plot for my book.

Off topic - Ages since I've had time to listen to Lave Radio, when did it start being a livestream? Still entertaining but personally I preferred it when you recorded then edited offline before release, I have even less time to listen to these unedited versions than I did the shorter ones.

Yep, I don't like being live either, but I'm outvoted. We've been live for a long while.

That is an interesting option, that list of journal entries is a very interesting read, there's a lot in there that I don't remember seeing before. Is it reliable? Is Jades list of broken missions complete?

Jade's site gives you a speculative idea on what was supposed to happen. I've no idea if that's everything, but its what I looked at to understand how it should have worked.

 

[Allen Stroud]

Oh and Commander J. Saunders is also mentioned in the current fiction. His first name is revealed.

 

[SeeZaa]

If it's not things that should be public knowledge then fair enough, but this is currently failing a basic foundation of storytelling in an RPG situation - and Elite undeniably has RPG elements.

We need clarity - we can't take sides in the dark.

im not so sure frosty, my initial thought was similarly.. WHAT! but i think in terms of RP, this is actually better for us, not only are we in a position of role playing uncertainty, it is genuine uncertainty, what we thought was lore (history) has now become rumour.. which is a good thing, we get to experience it 1st hand as we all learn the truth, and no spoilers.

i think some people are using language that makes this out to be a far more sweeping change, than maybe it is. our understanding of the past is always open to interpretation, and new discoveries sometimes mean that interpretation has to change.

wizards 1st rule - people will believe something because they fear it is true, or want it to be.. kings, queens, pharaohs, emperors, popes, governments etc.. have all been guilty, some 'are' still guilty, of manipulating the people under their governance to further personal and political agendas, why should elite fiction be any different?

in the same way that a civilisations story is the sum of it's entire existence, this story is far from over. i think the way this is being done is great from a story telling perspective, we just have to look at it through our characters eyes. we will all experiencing the story as it happens 1st hand, for some it will be the only story they know, for the rest it is a redressing of what is known, assumed, or been encouraged to believe. either way, we are all in it together. i will welcome any alien, whether it is with an open hand, or primed heavy cannons, i'll leave for them to decide.

regards

S

 

[Garbarrage]

Yea... this needs some explanation. Just changing it with little or no explanation. Writers getting cynical. Ongoing storylines which people have been following seemingly put on hold. The stories move slow enough as it is. And no explanation?

I think Frontier have dropped the ball here. As others have said, the lore is a huge part of the game. I could let the whole "it's an mmo but not an mmo" thing go, because Elite is something different. That difference is the story. To then go messing with the entire lead up to the present, and scrapping ideas making huge swathes of the backstop meaningless, and then announcing it through a stream watched by (what?) a hundred people, seems a tiny bit bonkers and sort of 2 fingers in the face of anyone who bought or wrote the books.

Frontier need to settle on a storyline and release a proper canon guide. This piecemeal approach is not really on.

 

[frostypaw]

DJTruthSayer might be a lovely chap but I hadn't heard of him until very, very recently - literally only because that one interview with MB is the only information we've got.

That's bonkers when you think about it for a game with a 1.5million strong ownership who would probably be interested - they will be assuming the lore is as they can find it on the net repeated ad infinitum. Surely this kind of change needs to be on the launcher so people can know the background that they would have learnt at school, what their grandparents would have told them. It doesn't even have to be in huge detail in any hurry - just a timeline would be good - then it can be fleshed out as part of ongoing storytelling to keep players engaged while the preparations for a change in season continue

 

[SeeZaa]

DJTruthSayer might be a lovely chap but I hadn't heard of him until very, very recently - literally only because that one interview with MB is the only information we've got.

That's bonkers when you think about it for a game with a 1.5million strong ownership who would probably be interested - they will be assuming the lore is as they can find it on the net repeated ad infinitum. Surely this kind of change needs to be on the launcher so people can know the background that they would have learnt at school, what their grandparents would have told them. It doesn't even have to be in huge detail in any hurry - just a timeline would be good - then it can be fleshed out as part of ongoing storytelling to keep players engaged while the preparations for a change in season continue

a rumour always starts with 1 person would it really matter if that 1 person only has an audience of 1, 5, 10 or 20? information of interest to small groups, larger organisations, even cultures, has a habit of being disseminated surprisingly quickly through informal channels, frequently even quicker than formal channels. this thread is a good example of that, i read about the changes here, which led me to the source of this discussion, likewise, i wonder how many other players have viewed this thread and done the same thing? how many also visited drew's page? how many tuned into lave radio? all very functional routes of distribution.

we cant as players validate our desire for more information, by trying to reason our position using 'stock' role play tropes. because everything we knew as a character, prior to this change, IS still what we knew as a character.. we just have new rumours now, new speculation, and many many unanswered questions.. whether we like or dislike the way it is being distributed.. it is working.

for those who like to rp, or simply enjoy knowing exactly where their character stands, relative to the fiction, they are still pretty much stood in the same place as before. that will only change as new game play, rumours, and reliable information become available to our characters, which is exactly how we are now experiencing this story as players.. i do like the symmetry.

in terms of elite lore, i would be highly surprised if even 1/3 of the player base, followed the full fiction behind elite, not for any other reason than.. not knowing it is there, or the draw of great cinematic, and game play trailers, and we can't dismiss the magnetic appeal of 'blazing ones own trail in space(tm) previous understanding of lore not require'. i can genuinely appreciate what you are saying, but this to me is more of an opportunity than a problem.

it is actually more likely, that someone who has created and maintained an index of fictional lore, would continue to do so, regardless of any legitimate changes. if a person is passionate, or ocd enough to create a reference, they are probably just as likely to be passionate, or ocd enough to continue doing so. especially if we consider that, there is a big difference between 'there are changes' and 'everything has changed' and a simple introduction or preface can be added to avoid confusion -

*please note there are some changes being introduced to the existing lore in relation to Elite: Dangerous. these changes will provide frontier developments with artistic freedom, in developing future content for Elite: Dangerous, that can focus on current game play, and mechanics.*

this is what we currently know, what we have always known. our history, the immutable knowledge of our past, is today, not so convincing. what we know.. knew.. what we knew, what we have been led to believe is.. is.. it isn't just rumours, information is emerging, there are things that may.. that will, forever change our.. .. .. . .'

would that kind of thing not provide enough to avoid issue? i do love history, but i live in the present. in the same way i would rather write about what i have just done, than be told about everything i am going to do.. i am happy to accept the history i know, until such time as i can reason, or can be shown that what i accept is wrong.

regards

S

 

[Allen Stroud]

SeeZaa,

Well said. I wish to subscribe to your magazine...

If I could give you more rep, I would.

 

[madbilly]

Hi Allen, thanks for the comprehensive reply.

Okay. Firstly Drew Wagar was not involved in the history development process... Thirdly, Dave Hughes' development process with Frontier is between Dave and Frontier... I'd be careful (and I think Dave would agree with me) to make the assumptions you've made in terms of development feedback.

You're right, I jumped to hasty conclusions and made assumptions that fit with the rest of my feelings.

I am absolutely sure they have [maintained the history documents], they would need to to manage the vast amount of content being generated by the continual existence of the game. The point I made with regards to releasing lore information (which I think is most important) is seeing the business case for this from Frontier's point of view. I actually think there's a great case to be made, but you are unlikely to see direct sales based on a downloadable lore guide. However, if it was written correctly (see my work on Chaos Reborn) you can aim to try to help people stay engaged with your franchise for longer by giving them things to try to find and explore, which takes us all the way back to generation ships and the like in the original game.

I agree with you, (although I've needed time to work through the academic process and ramifications of this) that it would be better to release a history document. However (and this is part of my thesis and attached to the business case point above) once you do that, you solidify that information and we end up right here again when someone decides to change something. What you actually need is a carefully thought out process of lore development that ensures you maintain your step ahead of the released material.

Nice to be agreed with I think my main gripe is that I don't think we've made any unreasonable assumptions, and considering how ED has been developed and promoted I don't think there were any alternative assumptions that were reasonable to make. Here's why I think that:

• Elite, FE2 and FFE all came with history, stories and supplementary detail to flesh out the universe. Elite and FE2/FFE histories were merged, reconciled (almost) and were open to the players, there were no secrets (that I remember).
• ED starts 50 years after FFE starts, it's made by the same company and called the next game in the Elite franchise, so we reasonably assume that it will continue chronologically from FFE and that the FFE history and storyline will not change. We know there are some universe changes for ED like non-newtonian flight, FSDs, etc, but we already know about them.
• ED came with almost nothing history and story-wise, and there's not much in game either. GalNet was used for a short while to flesh out the history but that stopped, which was a mistake. In the absence of any ED history that contradicts FFE we reasonable assume we can rely on FFE.

But now we hear that we can't rely on FFE! Therefore the absence of ED history is AN ENORMOUS issue, and one I hope FD will address asap. It's probably forlorn hope though.

Re reading about things then trying to find them in game, I think that for the current state of stories in ED it would be a bad idea to put the equivalent of generation ships in the the literature. Why? Because I believe that the current glacial pace of the stories in GalNet is because FD don't have the resource to actually put things in game, i.e. can we really find Jaques at the moment? Were barnacles really in the Witchhead and California nebula in 2.0? etc.

I've certainly made posts in the past related to 'the main behind the curtain.' If you think its irritating when something is changed, it's even more irritating and disappointing when you find there's nothing beyond what you know and people are making it up as they go along. That's not me suggesting this is happening here, but you only have to look at Lost (The TV series) for a good example of that.

Yes Lost is awful, I desperately hope that FD aren't making up the ED stories as they go along and that there's a really really really good story reason for these lore changes that we're only recently hearing about (but were perhaps decided years ago).

Okay, I can say the journal entries from Mike Cook's site are something we used in developing guide material. Andrew Gillet introduced the website link and I have personally thanked Mike several times for maintaining his site as the information there was invaluable for compiling what we did.

I can't go through each entry and tell you what is 'true' and what isn't. I'm sorry, there's just too many. Some things I can say. 1. Hengest Duval's age probably hasn't changed (as far as I know). 2. The Antaraes Incident has already been referenced in current Elite: Dangerous news, 3. The missing artefacts plot was one of the hardest things to get my head around when reading it. 4. Jjagged Bbanner are still rocking out there somewhere. 5. The Rast family is mentioned in the current fiction.

However, you will find some of the entries were included and added to in Lave Revolution. The 'Soholian Fever' entries were used as part of the plot for my book.

Oh and Commander J. Saunders is also mentioned in the current fiction. His first name is revealed.

So lots of small history stuff is continued in the ED franchise, but the 500lb gorilla may well turn out to be a mirage (II?). Thanks for the clarifications.

Jade's site gives you a speculative idea on what was supposed to happen. I've no idea if that's everything, but its what I looked at to understand how it should have worked.

I'm tempted to scour the exe file myself, but I think I'd rather carry on searching for J3 materials and wait for the official confirmation!

Yep, I don't like being live either, but I'm outvoted. We've been live for a long while.

Well I still enjoyed it, so please keep up the good work and I'll try and find time to listen!

 

[SeeZaa]

SeeZaa,

Well said. I wish to subscribe to your magazine...

If I could give you more rep, I would.

i wish i had a magazine for you to subscribe too

thanks for the kind words and the rep Allen.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

At least for me it was obvious that there's incredible amount of uncertainty about Thargoids and other major story elements within ED universe. First of all, Dark Weel as novel has been nuked. There are quite a lot of things calling back to it in ED design - and it is awesome - but there's certain amount of it that doesn't count as lore in ED continuity. Considering this, I never fully thought FE2 and FFE are complete cannon.

As for story change I am ok either way. I will guess Alliance players feel annoyed as kinda cool element for their superpower is gone, but it felt a bit too much of cope out.

As for *anything* lore from the past - without official FD document I guess we started to fill in gaps ourselves and that's hardly an issue. That doesn't mean FD has to align with that. *However* I certainly would welcome some vague history document, outline if you will. You can leave certain things a mystery, so you have creative freedom, or just pin it to historical bias. Just give players something to chew on.

Uncertainty certainly doesn't destroy my RP. Other commanders might feel otherwise.

 

[Allen Stroud]

Just an additional thought, which builds on my musing on the Lave Radio episode and might set this situation in context with some of SeeZaa's thoughts.

Imagine if a player in Elite Dangerous found a canister that contained a sleeping pilot. That canister could be unloaded at a station and the player would find out the man had been playing an alternative reality immersion that took actual events from a newsfeed receiver but then augmented them into a hero plot where the sleeping commander saved humanity from the Thargoids, etc. This information gradually leaked onto the news feeds. Then more canisters were found with a similar program, each covering the alternate and truncated endings of Frontier: First Encounters.

Further canisters would then be found with answers to some of the great mysteries of the game, like the final co-ordinates Augustus Brenquith was supposed to have journeyed towards, hints about what happened to missing ships back in the 3100s, etc.

Okay, so it's not a great retcon, but if you had all found out about changes to the backstory of the game via a means like this, would you have felt it was more palatable?

 

[madbilly]

Isn't this what happened in Dallas when JR came back to life? Or was it Bobby?

 

[Allen Stroud]

Curse you, you may have unravelled my analogy...

It was Bobby. He suddenly appeared in the shower.

 

[frostypaw]

Okay, so it's not a great retcon, but if you had all found out about changes to the backstory of the game via a means like this, would you have felt it was more palatable?

I'm not sure answers are really want's wanted, just to know how many arms we have.

Quite happy to have huge amounts of editing and changes done for a good reboot personally, but if the rough timeline that we all would have grown up in and learnt at school changes it'd just be nice to know - currently we've not really got an answer whether this is just "end of FFE didn't happen" or "Elite didn't really happen" - which is quite possible if this is meant to be first encounters now. The last thing we want is easy answers to the mysteries - we just want to see the shapes of the gaps where they fit once answered so we can ponder life on the Mayflower, question whether our grandfather's stories were true or look for the Tionisla graveyard - so our imaginations can fill in for all the bits that may be to come

Just the recent Missing related galnet is great, we know some of that story is still alive albeit not about the mayflower - but with the worrying cuts of over a third of the RPG's guide I'll remain unsure what else is left for a while I fear

 

[madbilly]

I'm not sure answers are really want's wanted, just to know how many arms we have.

Quite happy to have huge amounts of editing and changes done for a good reboot personally, but if the rough timeline that we all would have grown up in and learnt at school changes it'd just be nice to know...

Ditto. Emphasis on good reboot, like FE2 was a good reboot of Elite (I think this is generally accepted now). One good reason FE2 was a good reboot is because the info that came with and was in the game blatantly contradicted Elite. I'm sure there was disappointment at the time that the FDL was no longer available and the Thargoids had disappeared etc, but the game lore was clear. ED game lore is not.

 

[Privata]

That's one of the unofficial points of contact that have occurred.

Michael

As in , unofficial - not canon
Or unofficial - off the records

Will there be some form of basic lore guide , or a list of books that are canon and not?

I just have no clue what to think anymore , what is canon what is not.
Its hard to role play when you have no clue how the universe you are in functions.

So the thargoid wars are not canon? but us helping them is?
Can we please have a basic run down on what is canon and some form of basic lore guide even if its unfinished and has half the content censored

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Ditto. Emphasis on good reboot, like FE2 was a good reboot of Elite (I think this is generally accepted now). One good reason FE2 was a good reboot is because the info that came with and was in the game blatantly contradicted Elite. I'm sure there was disappointment at the time that the FDL was no longer available and the Thargoids had disappeared etc, but the game lore was clear. ED game lore is not.

Elite dangerous's lore is all inhouse.
None of it has been given to us and its starting to make me wonder if there is any of it.

David braben talks about it from time to time on livestreams but I think we need some lore info and basic guide for RPers

 

[Allen Stroud]

Actually it isn't. The current fiction is canon.

Just to return to my analogy above. I guess then what people on this thread are asking for is effectively a Council of Nicaea? Would that be accurate?

 

[madbilly]

Actually it isn't. The current fiction is canon.

Just to return to my analogy above. I guess then what people on this thread are asking for is effectively a Council of Nicaea? Would that be accurate?

Something like that but maybe without causing so much controversy over the next 2000 years!

 

[Jaiotu]

Actually it isn't. The current fiction is canon.

Just to return to my analogy above. I guess then what people on this thread are asking for is effectively a Council of Nicaea? Would that be accurate?

Wasn't the Council of Nicaea convened to decide on the nature of the Trinity and not on a list of what was or was not considered 'canon'?

But yes ... something along the lines of:

"The Dark Wheel" - Not canon though it does contain some canonical material. Much of what is retold in "The Dark Wheel" can be considered as legend some of which has it's origin in history but separating fact from legend has become impossible across the intervening decades.

"Imprint" - Mostly history though some elements should be considered as embellishments. Discount anything inconsistent with Frontier: Elite 2, Frontier: First Encounters or Elite: Dangerous.

"Stories of life on the Frontier" - Canonical history.

"Further stores of life on the Frontier" - Non-canonical. Fictional accounts that some have retold as though it was actual history.

"Elite: Dangerous official novels" - Mostly canonical though specific statements regarding elements of game play that were changed prior to the release of the game should be taken into account.

Stuff like the FFE journals and mission text would be more difficult to categorize but providing something like the above list would go a long way toward alleviating some of the confusion as it would be a statement regarding the major works of fiction that underpin the Elite universe.

 

[madbilly]

As Jaiotu says, this is what we need. I'd prefer a comprehensive timeline and reconciliation of contradictions, but a written summary would probably suffice so long as it was maintained online. I don't think a video on YouTube would work, mainly because it won't be as clear and will be a pain to refer to.