The lack of CGs has meant there is no place for pvpers to congregate. Deciat seems to be the defacto point now which leads to a lot of murder of people just trying to visit the engineer. Shinrarta is also but many PvPers are uninterested in pve so have not obtained an elite rank to get the permit.
Murder rates increasing
- Thread starter Chromezero
- Start date
Yep.
My assumption is that, in the absence of anything more interesting to do, more and more players just try shooting at any other CMDR they spot.
Literally, almost every other CMDR that I've encountered in the last few months has interdicted me.
My Two Credits:
I dig the...lively debate...around defining 'senseless', but let's just call it an uptick in unprovoked, non-consensual PvP. Which is generally just called piracy.
I've seen an uptick in threads about it, but without any data it's hard to measure. One of my favorite features in EVE Online is also quite simple: the galactic map displays many statistics including ship traffic and ships destroyed in the last 24 hours. Really handy if you're looking for fights...or trying to avoid them. Anyways...
If there IS an increase in piracy - and we did argue that may be problematic - I'd say it is likely because the game lacks outlets for controlled or incented PvP. Power Play PvP is a joke, for example, but if tuned correctly could provide an excellent outlet for PvP oriented commanders. CQC is also broken, another feature for PvP commanders.
That said, it's important to remember that there will always be commanders who are PvP-oriented as a gankers, seeking soft-targets for various purposes ranging from the pleasure of triumphing over a target (regardless of its actual thread) or seeking goods or roleplaying a psychopath that targets unnamed ships because he or she thinks ships are people and deserve names to live.
The quantity of these gankers (and I don't use that term to be insulting, it's just another play style) is largely dependent on how the game supports or hinders their actions. The perception of these gankers is dependent on the quantity of targets available. i.e. If more commanders move to solo or pg, gankers will seem more prevalent simply because the pool of targets is smaller - increasing the percentile affected by their actions. Vice versa, while there are literally hundreds of gankers in EVE Online - for which it is well known - your chances of being ganked are actually quite low, because the population available 'to be ganked' is generally quite high.
An instance of Elite doesn't support many players - even at popular stations such as Jameson - which means the ratio of gankers to targets is obscenely high. Gankers won't stay in the same instance with each other usually (out of fear for each other, or simply to have more targets to themselves, or any other reason really), so they tend to naturally spread across instances. Pirates are generally the same, but they are more likely to operate in packs - further unbalancing that ratio. Again, the limitations of instancing in Elite creates an environment that amplifies the presence of illegal activity.
If you were to organize a wing of anti-pirates - enforcers as I call them - you'd quickly run into a simple but frustrating problem: finding targets. If there are four of you, you've already eliminated 50% of the available pool of potential targets (not necessarily what you're looking for) just because of the limitations of the instance. A pirate - let alone a pirate group - will very likely not end up in your instance, you'll never meet, and they'll happily pillage away. But for the seven or so commanders in the instance with the pirate, his or her presence seems highly amplified when it isn't 'actually' that big of a deal relative to the total population.
Way, way off-topic...but consider the gun debate in the United States: if you eliminate Chicago, Detroit and Washington D.C. from gun crime statistics you also eliminate well over 75% of gun crime in the nation. Yet 75% of the population is obviously not in these cities. In the gaming environment, this same effect shows with piracy and ganking around major areas. Elite's spread-out nature where CGs and Jameson and Engineers are the sole focal points creates a perception of heightened illegal activity, when in fact it's just all concentrated in a few areas but still represents a tiny fraction of the total population.
Just some food for thought.
I dig the...lively debate...around defining 'senseless', but let's just call it an uptick in unprovoked, non-consensual PvP. Which is generally just called piracy.
I've seen an uptick in threads about it, but without any data it's hard to measure. One of my favorite features in EVE Online is also quite simple: the galactic map displays many statistics including ship traffic and ships destroyed in the last 24 hours. Really handy if you're looking for fights...or trying to avoid them. Anyways...
If there IS an increase in piracy - and we did argue that may be problematic - I'd say it is likely because the game lacks outlets for controlled or incented PvP. Power Play PvP is a joke, for example, but if tuned correctly could provide an excellent outlet for PvP oriented commanders. CQC is also broken, another feature for PvP commanders.
That said, it's important to remember that there will always be commanders who are PvP-oriented as a gankers, seeking soft-targets for various purposes ranging from the pleasure of triumphing over a target (regardless of its actual thread) or seeking goods or roleplaying a psychopath that targets unnamed ships because he or she thinks ships are people and deserve names to live.
The quantity of these gankers (and I don't use that term to be insulting, it's just another play style) is largely dependent on how the game supports or hinders their actions. The perception of these gankers is dependent on the quantity of targets available. i.e. If more commanders move to solo or pg, gankers will seem more prevalent simply because the pool of targets is smaller - increasing the percentile affected by their actions. Vice versa, while there are literally hundreds of gankers in EVE Online - for which it is well known - your chances of being ganked are actually quite low, because the population available 'to be ganked' is generally quite high.
An instance of Elite doesn't support many players - even at popular stations such as Jameson - which means the ratio of gankers to targets is obscenely high. Gankers won't stay in the same instance with each other usually (out of fear for each other, or simply to have more targets to themselves, or any other reason really), so they tend to naturally spread across instances. Pirates are generally the same, but they are more likely to operate in packs - further unbalancing that ratio. Again, the limitations of instancing in Elite creates an environment that amplifies the presence of illegal activity.
If you were to organize a wing of anti-pirates - enforcers as I call them - you'd quickly run into a simple but frustrating problem: finding targets. If there are four of you, you've already eliminated 50% of the available pool of potential targets (not necessarily what you're looking for) just because of the limitations of the instance. A pirate - let alone a pirate group - will very likely not end up in your instance, you'll never meet, and they'll happily pillage away. But for the seven or so commanders in the instance with the pirate, his or her presence seems highly amplified when it isn't 'actually' that big of a deal relative to the total population.
Way, way off-topic...but consider the gun debate in the United States: if you eliminate Chicago, Detroit and Washington D.C. from gun crime statistics you also eliminate well over 75% of gun crime in the nation. Yet 75% of the population is obviously not in these cities. In the gaming environment, this same effect shows with piracy and ganking around major areas. Elite's spread-out nature where CGs and Jameson and Engineers are the sole focal points creates a perception of heightened illegal activity, when in fact it's just all concentrated in a few areas but still represents a tiny fraction of the total population.
Just some food for thought.
You're delusional, because you have difficulties with distinguishing fantasy from reality.(Please take this as a teutonic attempt at humour...) In this case, a mugger would be an extremely social person, as he chats up people ("Gimme your money, dude, or else!"), and not only that, he also re-distributes wealth...
Thing is, in my experience it's not just PvPers who're at it.
Yesterday I got interdicted by somebody in a Python who was very aggressive but barely managed to scratch my shields... and then, when I fired at him I took his shields out and knocked his hull down to 1% (I was quite chuffed with my restraint) in about 5 seconds.
Then I jumped out.
It's like people are going stir-crazy with nothing else to occupy their attention in-game.
This seems like a reason to participate in Power Play. It gives PvP'ers a reason to hunt each other and in a semi-legal way. If I'm killed by someone from an opposing faction, I chalk it up to the price of playing politics.
This is what I would call murder or "ganking". Piracy would involve robbery or making demands of some sort. This is, of course, just my opinion.
I nearly killed a guy the other day.
I opened comms with him to get him to understand what the problem was, and give him a chance to explain.
But he had zero clue that what he was doing made him a target.
He was in Gateway with no PowerPlay pledge running missions for cash and, I guess, his own entertainment.
Fortunately the targets of his mission were NPCs of a faction I don’t like. So I let him be. But I think (like a lot of people) he didn’t realise that in Gateway you are either hurting or helping the Alliance. I should have killed him a few times to make him take his rando mission running elsewhere.
He would have thought I was a senseless murderer. But he would have deserved a bunch of Rebuy.
I opened comms with him to get him to understand what the problem was, and give him a chance to explain.
But he had zero clue that what he was doing made him a target.
He was in Gateway with no PowerPlay pledge running missions for cash and, I guess, his own entertainment.
Fortunately the targets of his mission were NPCs of a faction I don’t like. So I let him be. But I think (like a lot of people) he didn’t realise that in Gateway you are either hurting or helping the Alliance. I should have killed him a few times to make him take his rando mission running elsewhere.
He would have thought I was a senseless murderer. But he would have deserved a bunch of Rebuy.
Hmm.
This is the second time I've heard this tale from you... Who you trying to convince?
Sorry, I don't buy it. Ask yourself, what's special about Deciat? There are two obvious reasons for ganking there:
(1) It's the first engineer players unlock, so you can find inexperienced pilots to attack.
(2) There's a good chance that someone arriving there has just trogged all the way from Maia with one meta-alloy on board: max salt if you destroy them.
I just don't think people who are attracted to inexperienced victims and salt will be at all interested in a place where real PvP is on offer. Providing PvP content therefore won't change the situation in Deciat at all.
(1) It's the first engineer players unlock, so you can find inexperienced pilots to attack.
(2) There's a good chance that someone arriving there has just trogged all the way from Maia with one meta-alloy on board: max salt if you destroy them.
I just don't think people who are attracted to inexperienced victims and salt will be at all interested in a place where real PvP is on offer. Providing PvP content therefore won't change the situation in Deciat at all.
Hehe, ok ok...'my opinion' so we can add fuel to the fire!
Assault: illegal aggression that presumes intent to murder
- Technically, assault doesn't necessitate intent to murder
- Assault is simply illegally engaging in aggression with a target
- Target must be legal
- Target can be inferior, superior, or matched
- Mass Murder will likely involve ganking, but doesn't necessarily have to
- Mass Murder can involve griefing, but usually does not
- The goods don't have to be illegal, just their transportation
- Destruction or aggression play no role in smuggling - instead, they elevate it to piracy
- Target can themselves be illegal, too
- Piracy is defined by the possession of the goods - the goods do not belong to the pirate, in other words
- Pirates technically cannot 'pirate' other pirates. That's just repossessing already stolen goods
- Piracy can involve destruction, as is typical for salvaging pirates - what matters is the illicit pursuit of goods
- Piracy doesn't require the actual acquisition of goods, just the illegal attempt to acquire goods
- The above does, however, differentiate 'good' pirates from 'stupid' pirates. All pirates are bad, so the point is moot.
- The action must be illegal
- The target must be considered inferior: unable to reasonably defend or escape aggression
- 'Why' the ganking occurs has no bearing on the action - you can be both a ganker and a pirate, for example
- The skill or lack thereof of the target has no bearing on the action
- Repetition is what makes griefing different from piracy or ganking
- Griefing does not apply to many targets: that is just mass ganking or piracy, as it isn't repetitious to the individual targets
- If target repeatedly encounters griefer willfully they are consenting, and therefore not being griefed
- Given the above, Mass Murders usually don't usually involve griefing because targets will either intentionally subject themselves - consensual - or will avoid conflict, and thus repetitious targeting, both of which nullify griefing
- Camping does not require destruction or even direct interaction
- Camping is merely the threat of murder or assault, not their actual actions
- Camping only occurs if it actually restricts the movement of the target - if the target ignores the threat and escapes the camp, they weren't being camped
- Camping is 'illegal' in game rules, but not actual in-game laws because it can't be reported to in-game authorities
- Given the above, if there were no 'rules' for the game...Camping would not be illegal, unless the threat was enforced with an illegal action
- Typically, but not always, Camping is established after illegal actions have already occurred.
- Given the above, Camping is usually only effective before illegal actions if the Camper has a reputation that reinforces the validity of their threat to target
- Technically, Camping is an act of Griefing as it is a continuous - and therefore repetitious - illegal action against a non-consenting target
Not sure what I'm missing...I think that's all of it.
I recycle tales a lot.Hmm.
This is the second time I've heard this tale from you... Who you trying to convince?
This is currently J-47 in the anecdote jukebox. I’ll get tired of it soon, but not before you do.
Why?
Unfortunately your definition of “griefing” matches my definition of “area denial”.
It doesn’t matter WHY someone chooses to make an area hot. There are lots of reasons. “Area denial” just means ANYONE who goes there is a target.
“Don’t go here - or be ready to fight”
have been telling you guys all along, alliance is the same scum as feds and imps, just poorer.
sorry, mr self entitled, to happen to be running missions in your own private galaxy like a filthy infidel!
actually, things being different you would be giving me a good motivation to do exactly that. but i bet you must be already really enraged about cheats upsetting your precious bgs. there's an interesting thread about it, go take a look, and have your say
Thanks. I'm a fan of both KLF and the Illuminatus Trilogy, which has references to Bob Dobbs in it. My squadron title is Subgenius
As for lack of seeing other players, pretty much. A lot of the open experience depends on where you are, and i operate in the middle of alliance territory, which seems rather quiet a lot of the time. I've just done a run of half a dozen systems doing courier missions (in my 800+ m/s Viper Mk3 - so even if interdicted by a murder hobo i'd just laugh as they ate my space dust). I saw just 1 other CMDR, docked at a station. Didn't see anyone in SC in any of the systems i travelled through.
Of course, if i go somewhere like Shinrarta or Deciat, i will see other players most of the time. However, when i do, i tend to fly something fast, and strangely enough, i don't get bothered. I think the gankers know they would just be wasting their time.
Because it's not playing properly how I want people to play!
Elite: Dangerous, play it my way!
No no, area denial is more akin to camping than griefing - but it is a form of illegal restriction that isn't repetitive, and thus not griefing.
You see - if you restrict movement in an area, it can't really be griefing unless the target is stuck in said area. If, however, you kill the target (or run them off with an assault), you can't grief them as you can't repetitiously assault, murder, or restrict them illegally.
You can 'camp' a station - which is an act of griefing for those stuck inside or required to get inside (like with a mission destination). But the odd commander who just wants to dock there for fuel, or to shop parts or what have you...he isn't being griefed because it can't be continuous unless he chooses it to be. Which makes it consensual, and thus not griefing.
The catches to griefing are non-consensual, illegal, and repetitive. If any of those three are missing, it isn't griefing.
For me, I think it's two reasons...
One - The redundancy of seeing Asp Explorer / Asp Explorer when I scan them
Two - It's bad luck to sail a ship without a name...if you're superstitious
It's certainly bad luck in Deciat.
Also, keep in mind that repetition is defined by the individual target - not many targets. If your area denial affects many commanders, but none of them repetitively over a short period of time, it isn't griefing - it's just illegal restriction of movement, which will just be mass murder and/or mass assault.