Engineers My concerns on splitting Human/Thargoid combat

... or why I think that we need engineerable and gimballed guardian weapons.

As most people probably know thargoids are mostly immune to human non-AX weaponry, as in zero (or at least by far not enough) damage is caused to hull and thargoid hearts. The guardian weaponry however, the shard cannon, plasma and gauss cannon can tear apart thargoids very eficiently. They are, however, vastly inferior to human guns in terms of human-ship-damage, especially when compared to engineered human tech weapons.

The consequence of this is that both combat modes are completely split. You will only be 20% as effective vs. human ships with guardian weapons, making them a bad choice in any activity outside of thargoid battles.
On a side note the guardian plasma accelerator seems to be the only weapon that doesn't underperform vs. human ships compared to an un-engineered PA.

It would be really great if the combat gameplay would not be so split. It's Ok for human weapons to be ineffective versus thargoids, but we get new hybrid-toys from a technologically superior race and it can't compete with our standard weaponry. If a guardian gauss does rip one hell of a hole into thargoid armor which is resistant to our kinetic weapons, why doesn't it also show a heavier effect on human ships? If the shard cannon fires state-of-the-art ultra-hardened crystal shards that basically cut through a tharg, why doesn't it do the same to human ships?

It's disappointing to see that alien technology not being of much use for 95% of the combat gameplay going on in Elite. Thus I think they would greatly benefit from engineering. This does not mean giving them the same possible upgrades as the human tech, but having us kill thargoids with them and needing those mats to upgrade alien weaponry would still require players to engage the content that guardian weapons are made for and create the motivation to actually go out and kill goids to get better stuff.

And while I understand that there shouldn't be gimballed gauss or PAs, I don't get why the shard cannon isn't availible as gimbal when normal fraggos are. This would actually give it some sense to be equipped because gauss still outperforms it vs. hearts. But a gimbal shard cannon would have given heavy ships a greater flexibility versus those speedy xenos and made it more useful as the only no-falloff frag cannon vs. humans.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely acknowledge that thargoids need different tactics and more advanced equipment. I just feel like said advanced equipment should have more use in the normal gameplay, after all it's one hell of a grind to acquire it and alien weapons are just quite fancy.

Thanks for reading.
 
It seems we aren't getting any gimbaled anti-thargoid weapons anytime soon. Because "balance" and "challenge". Many people repeatedly ask for them (including myself), but so far, FD is silent. Which is a bad move IMO - it effectively cuts the majority of player base from big Thargoid-related content (Scouts are fine, since they can be damaged by conventional weapons).
 
When I have watched videos of thargoid killing with fixed weapons, they are rarely anywhere near the leading targeting reticule when they fire, but still hit. I think these larger thargoids are a bit like a barn door.
 
It seems we aren't getting any gimbaled anti-thargoid weapons anytime soon. Because "balance" and "challenge". Many people repeatedly ask for them (including myself), but so far, FD is silent. Which is a bad move IMO - it effectively cuts the majority of player base from big Thargoid-related content (Scouts are fine, since they can be damaged by conventional weapons).
Well, to be fair Interceptors are easy to hit with gauss because it's hitscan. This is also why gauss outclasses the rest of the weaponry, and because of the incredible damage vs thargoid hull. Nobody multicrews for tharg hunting if he can get a wing, so turreted plasmas and shard cannons are nonsense in the first place, they also deal less damage.
Scouts are fine, yeah. You can even kill four of them with an asp. They are like the low-end way to enter thargoid combat, but the pay is worse than headhunting or CZs.

It would be a good first step to make the already availible weapons better vs. human ships. Either by a simple buff or by making them engineer-able.


When I have watched videos of thargoid killing with fixed weapons, they are rarely anywhere near the leading targeting reticule when they fire, but still hit. I think these larger thargoids are a bit like a barn door.
It's the petal that is vulnerable, not the glowing spot it seems. It just indicates which petal has to be shot.
 
Well, to be fair Interceptors are easy to hit with gauss because it's hitscan. This is also why gauss outclasses the rest of the weaponry, and because of the incredible damage vs thargoid hull. Nobody multicrews for tharg hunting if he can get a wing, so turreted plasmas and shard cannons are nonsense in the first place, they also deal less damage.
I don't have gauss cannons, and I do not intend to pass through this awful grind to obtain them.
 
I do agree on wishing that Thargoid weapons where a little better all arround but..

Honestly i Wish we had more LARGE and some HUGE power play/Guardian weapons .

But consider the *split* I dont care.. i have a FLEET of ships ( not just 1 ship to do it all )



FAS: pvp
Corvette: PvE
Anaconda: Cargo/trading + passenger + Out the bubble travel
Type 10: Thargoid hunter
ASP explorer: Exploring ( road to riches) + prospecting (planetary landing)
Chieftain: PvE
Python: Asteroid Mining
 
I do agree on wishing that Thargoid weapons where a little better all arround but..

Honestly i Wish we had more LARGE and some HUGE power play/Guardian weapons .

But consider the *split* I dont care.. i have a FLEET of ships ( not just 1 ship to do it all )



FAS: pvp
Corvette: PvE
Anaconda: Cargo/trading + passenger + Out the bubble travel
Type 10: Thargoid hunter
ASP explorer: Exploring ( road to riches) + prospecting (planetary landing)
Chieftain: PvE
Python: Asteroid Mining
Yeah, more weapons size variation for those and future weapons could also do wonders.

The split refers to the equipment eficiency discrepancy between thargoid and human targets, which ship you use and what roles those ships have has nothing to do with that (weapon-stat wise).
 
Yeah, more weapons size variation for those and future weapons could also do wonders.

The split refers to the equipment eficiency discrepancy between thargoid and human targets, which ship you use and what roles those ships have has nothing to do with that (weapon-stat wise).
well considering the Op wished Thargoid Weapons did better vs Human ships it has everything to do with that.

only reason you would want Thargoids and guardians weapons to be good vs Everything is to have a All round do it all ship witch is countered by having a fleet of ships.

I dont want thargoid weapons to be better VS human cause then having a Thargoid hunter would be useless.
 
Last edited:
For such a huge part of the games history, they’ve sure locked the ‘goids out behind a lot of tedious grind ... which I think makes them largely pointless to the vast majority of players. That’s a great shame. Rather than making Guardian weapons more effective against human ships, I’d like to see a more accessible way to engineer / upgrade standard weapons for use against Thargoids: say a new Experimental Effect that can be attached to existing weapons by existing engineers ... would get a lot more of the galaxy engaged in defending against the Thargoid threat.
 
well considering the Op wished Thargoid Weapons did better vs Human ships it has everything to do with that.

only reason you would want Thargoids and guardians weapons to be good vs Everything is to have a All round do it all ship witch is countered by having a fleet of ships.

I dont want thargoid weapons to be better VS human cause then having a Thargoid hunter would be useless.
I never said anything about thargoid weapons having to be more effective vs. human ships... I was talking about guardian-hybrid-tech weapons that are availible at the tech broker and how they are underwhelming vs. human targets.

And if you want an all-around ship you can engage 100% of content with you got the conda.

I really don't get what you'd like to say, can you elaborate, please?

For such a huge part of the games history, they’ve sure locked the ‘goids out behind a lot of tedious grind ... which I think makes them largely pointless to the vast majority of players. That’s a great shame. Rather than making Guardian weapons more effective against human ships, I’d like to see a more accessible way to engineer / upgrade standard weapons for use against Thargoids: say a new Experimental Effect that can be attached to existing weapons by existing engineers ... would get a lot more of the galaxy engaged in defending against the Thargoid threat.
It would also heavily trivialize Thargoid encounters if everyone could just make his normal weapons work on thargoids. As you said, the guardian weps are hidden behind one hell of an atrocious grind that Fdev should be pretty much be ashamed for. I think it's reasonable to make guardian tech the way to counter the goids, the way it is unlocked is just the problem. It should be more engaging or simply less grindy to an extent, but making our normal guns work on thargs would trivialize the whole matter too much and everyone would run off after a while because it would be just too simple. Additionally, when human tech was useful versus thargs who would even bother using this super-advanced alien tech? Guardian modules would be even more useless then.
 
Last edited:
e?



It would also heavily trivialize Thargoid encounters if everyone could just make his normal weapons work on thargoids. As you said, the guardian weps are hidden behind one hell of an atrocious grind that Fdev should be pretty much be ashamed for.
Took me about 3 hours to get Gauss , and count 900 ly trip in some underdeveloped piece of junk both ways . Not so much grind and you don't need any other guardian stuff
 
Took me about 3 hours to get Gauss , and count 900 ly trip in some underdeveloped piece of junk both ways . Not so much grind and you don't need any other guardian stuff
WeaponS, to acquire all of them you need 40 Bps, that's around 20 hours of grinding the same site + the guardian tech parts. Also Gauss really is the cheapest of all the weapons (luckily). Then there's modules and more stuff to come. Even if you just want to unlock half of the new guardian modules/weapons you'll be busy for around ... 15 hours? of grinding the same site. Getting module BPs takes even longer and to make it even less engaging FDev made it so that multiple players in a wing will have to re-activate the obelisks everytime after a scan and sacrifice a new relic. The data terminal can only be scanned by one person before disappearing underground.

Then there's the fact that all other guardian weapons pretty much underperform compared to gauss, which is even more sad.
 
if I read the OP correctly - the reasoning behind the very different combat needs is to generate further gameplay. Essentially a lot of older players were bored with their over engineered ships and beating new players to death repeatedly. So....any good developer gives them new foe to take their minds of clubbing seals which REQUIRES entirely new modules to do the task so all the previous effort would be more or less useless.

AKA the THARGOIDS.

As to not having Guardian tech work well on human ships - lets not give the seal clubbers bigger clubs eh....It might not be 'realistic' but then if every ship had insta-kill weaponry then Elite Dangerous would be a very short-lived experience for 95% of players and Frontiers back accounts would diminish exponentially...
 
Last edited:
Artificial difficulty is not fun to me.
Restriction to 4 AX weapons, no gimballed, no seeker raks, no cannons, it does not make sense.
Medusas and Basilisks wouls on solo be still a hard challenge.
 
if I read the OP correctly - the reasoning behind the very different combat needs is to generate further gameplay. Essentially a lot of older players were bored with their over engineered ships and beating new players to death repeatedly. So....any good developer gives them new foe to take their minds of clubbing seals which REQUIRES entirely new modules to do the task so all the previous effort would be more or less useless.

AKA the THARGOIDS.

As to not having Guardian tech work well on human ships - lets not give the seal clubbers bigger clubs eh....It might not be 'realistic' but then if every ship had insta-kill weaponry then Elite Dangerous would be a very short-lived experience for 95% of players and Frontiers back accounts would diminish exponentially...
Just to point this out: realism < game mechanics in a videogame.

What does this have to do with insta-kill weaponry? They just have to make them reasonably strong versus players/AI. All of the thargoid weapons would perfectly work as a sidegrade to existing gear on ships. Shard cannon is a fraggo with no damage falloff, the guardian PA has a charge mechanic but compensates this with less energy drain and heat, the gauss deals thermal damage instead of kinetic. All that keeps these guns from being viable is their straightout BAD stats in non-tharg PvE (and PvP?). If they all would just have combat stats according to their drain, heat and distri draw, they would make perfect alternatives for existing weaponry without being necessarily stronger, unbalanced or overpowered. I never asked them to be stronger, I asked them to be useful.

This would not take anything away from current thargoid combat and add to the other combat aspects of the game, making the grind worth it, because right now, gauss beats everything and other guardian weps have no place, not even in thargoid-gameplay...
 
The problem of the divide between Human/Thargoid fighting was most obvious when there were anti-Thargoid CGs. And some players went there to hunt for CMDRs equipped to fight the aliens. We were pretty much powerless. It was fun when one of such fun-spoilers got zapped pretty bad by the Thargoid he was allegedly rescuing from Humans.
 
The problem of the divide between Human/Thargoid fighting was most obvious when there were anti-Thargoid CGs. And some players went there to hunt for CMDRs equipped to fight the aliens. We were pretty much powerless. It was fun when one of such fun-spoilers got zapped pretty bad by the Thargoid he was allegedly rescuing from Humans.
Yeah, I got hit on Open once by a riefer close to a station, came back with 20% hull on my python and was killed right next to the mailslot without station turrets reacting on the assailant. With anti-tharg/AX weapons you totally get roasted, no chance. Ran some wing assasinations yesterday with a friend who wanted to try anti-tharg experimentals versus the target, we almost got roflstomped! Went out with 40% hull, luckily I had "real" weapons on my FDL.
 
Top Bottom