My issue with Odyssey Engineering

While I continue to play this game, I can't help but notice what I regard, in my own opinion (ie not pretending everyone thinks this way), is a serious design issue with Odyssey engineering.

On one hand you have a major fault with Odyssey engineering where you are not allowed to remove or re-apply different engineering mods to suits and weapons; and on the other hand you have a system that now allows people to gather Odyssey engineering mats by simply purchasing them. I propose that both of these systems devalue the associated Odyssey engineering game-play because the primary problem is with the inability to alter suit and weapon engineering mods and now the purchasing of Odyssey materials appears to be a quick fix for the issue that does not address the core problem but instead undermines the whole relationship between engineering and materials.

If we look back at the launch of Horizons ship engineering, the major problem with the initial implementation was the randomised outcomes of blueprints, however a lot of people reported initially that the issue was with the difficulty gathering mats (just like they are now doing with Odyssey). While Frontier did implement ways to make it somewhat easier to gather these Horizons mats, they eventually realised that the main issue was in fact the result of randomised outcomes for engineering blueprints, not necessarily the material gathering. They fixed this by making Horizons blueprints deterministic instead of semi-random. I propose that this initial same issue is present within Odyssey engineering but in a slightly different way. What I essentially mean is that it is the 'destination' that is the problem, not the 'journey'.

Just like Horizons initially, I propose that the real problem with Odyssey is not material gathering but instead the process of applying engineering because not being able to replace suit and weapon mods leads to an exponential grind for materials as well as making experimentation difficult on a grade 5 item. Now, instead of fixing this, they have essentially devalued the material gathering game-loop by allowing commanders (and especially new commanders) to simply bypass the whole process and purchase them. Due to money being easily made very quickly, along with the application of INARA, this is concerning.

While no one is forcing me to purchase mats instead of gathering them traditionally, I still point out that instead of correctly analysing the actual problem, Frontier have simply created a bigger one and in the process devalued Odyssey engineering.

I would also add that the ability to purchase pre-upgraded suits and weapons (with potential random mods) does in itself recognise that the issue is the non-removability of engineering mods by trying to apply a 'fix' while not addressing the key problem. Meaning that they try to make it easier for you to bypass the actual problem without addressing the actual problem.

In my opinion the combination of the above two issues undermines Odyssey in a serious way and my response to this is not to engage with Odyssey engineering, other than to upgrade my suits and weapons to Grade 5. I will engage with Odyssey engineering when I have the full ability to experiment with the application of a combination of mods in my grade 5 suits and weapons. This will then allow me to build and mod other Grade 5 suits for different purposes with confidence.
 
tl;dr Annoyed not everybody has to spend as much time gathering materials because you can buy and sell them now, yet apparently unaware people were able to trade them manually beforehand anyway.
Indeed I was aware of the ability to trade, however, as I indicated in my post, I believe the problem is not so much with the material gathering aspect but the limitations of engineering. My comments regarding material gathering/trading/buying relate to the fact that Frontier appear to be trying to fix with problem without actually fixing the problem.
 
Many theorycrafted these issues before engineering came out, but actually it's not that bad in practice. Some mods are 'obvious' (scopes and silencers on sniper rifles, night vision on scavenging suits), and others make little difference compared to the grade (so a G5 weapon will be effective whatever you put on it). So most will complete a couple of suits and settle on that.

Might be nice to be able to destroy a mod to free up a slot, but that's about all. Allowing swapping of mods around would change the meta - if that were allowed then the 'best' way to do engineering would be to find pre-engineered suits - strip them of mods and you are done. I can't see that happening.

Plus : Engineering is about the only end-game for EDO content at the moment - there is nothing after other than CZ and now supplying FC bars. So cutting it down just for the grinders ... no thanks.

(Pre-engineered items in shops were almost definitely added because people kept asking for them on ships. And I think it works well, there's a nice thread grown up around sharing finds.)
 
Regarding the inability to remove modifications; there was a time when a number of players (me included), bemoaned the lack of "consequence" in Elite Dangerous. I like the idea that our Cmdrs have to live with the consequences of our choices. Its hardly a huge consequence to live with either - personally, I don't think we should be simultaneous rank in Federation and Empire, but that's a whole other story.
 
Thanks for the thoughts Factabulous. I would be happy if we could simply overwrite mods and not swap them between suits/weapons. It would still take a new set of mats to perform a new engineering mod and that would preserve the material grind.
 
Regarding the inability to remove modifications; there was a time when a number of players (me included), bemoaned the lack of "consequence" in Elite Dangerous. I like the idea that our Cmdrs have to live with the consequences of our choices. Its hardly a huge consequence to live with either - personally, I don't think we should be simultaneous rank in Federation and Empire, but that's a whole other story.
I understand what you mean regarding consequences and mostly agree. However in this case, I prefer the philosophy of 'Power to the gamer', so that we may have the power to do the things the way we want to (assuming there are no exploits).
 
Indeed I was aware of the ability to trade, however, as I indicated in my post, I believe the problem is not so much with the material gathering aspect but the limitations of engineering. My comments regarding material gathering/trading/buying relate to the fact that Frontier appear to be trying to fix with problem without actually fixing the problem.
You did however mention "devalue" three times throughout your post. And if your theory is correct that FDev are trying to fix a problem, that's more than we can usually expect from them anyway.
 
You did however mention "devalue" three times throughout your post. And if your theory is correct that FDev are trying to fix a problem, that's more than we can usually expect from them anyway.
Devalue, as in devalue the gameplay - not materials.
 
FDEV need the insane grind for on foot equipment, because that essentially is the whole of Odyssey. It's filler content. Once you have all the gear you want, it's only ground combat zones and exobiology that's left. Unless you enjoy the on foot missions so much that you want to keep doing them, even after you already did them ad nauseum for the material grind. I am at the point in the game. I have every piece of ground gear at G5 and fully modded. I had to redo the Dominator suit, because I left out a mod on the first one that I now consider essential. While I could do even more specialized suits and weapons I neither want nor need to. The Dominator is fit for all things combat, the Maverick is fit for everything else settlement related, the Artemis has little build variety anyway. And on the weapon side I have some for silent sniping and some for heavy battle, good enough as well.Since being "done" I have returned to almost exclusively ship and space gameplay, I rarely disembark for anything anymore, except for exobiology and ground combat zones. And that, quite frankly is way too little for a full price expansion.

I know how FDEV work, ED vanilla was pretty barebones as well and got enriched over time, same with Horizons. Odyssey will go through a lot of fleshing out as well before FDEV even start to work on lessening the the ground gear grind. Once they have more of an actual game there, they'll lessen the requirements, but not before.
 
they just need to make the mods physical . so you can switch from weapon to weapon (kenectic mods be compactible with each other exepct for lazer weapon mods) and add hte ability to remove them from the weapon without destroying it .
 
Bypassing the "grind" by purchasing mats is now possible in theory, but rarely works in actuality (and is a long way from doing so).

There's a massive supply/demand imbalance. Few people can successfully buy. My Odyssey account is in the Colonia region at the moment, which is the best place for Engineer access (all mods available from 4 Engineers with relatively easy unlocks), but hardly anyone sells anything, and whatever is put up for sale disappears instantly. Not sure how much better that might be in the Bubble, with more sellers, but also more buyers.
 
Gotta say, I enjoy Skyrim's, Fallout's, Cyberpunk's, Conan's, Dragon Age Inquisition, Greedfall, (Insert any FP gameplay crafting system here) crafting more than EDO.

I will be blunt, If I want FP gameplay, I play those games and not FPS EDO.

I don't think EDO FPS crafting is recoverable.
 
Think of your suit as a ship, and weapon mods as ship modules.. Would make it a lot more fun to experiment with weapon and suit mods!
That's a fair point of view, however this game has a very tight focus on material gathering as a significant part (or purpose) for the gameplay. While this is unfortunate, I think the only option for fixing the lock-in suit and weapon mods is to allow us to overwrite or delete them. That way Frontier get to keep the grind aspect and still allow us to experiment and change our minds without loosing our heads :)
 
Sorry to necro this thread but better that than to start another.

I'm having a nightmare with gathering the materials / data for engineering suits and weapon mods. There are some that are really hard to find, Topographical Surveys, Ballistics data, Chemical Formulae, Mineral surveys, chemical inventory, weapon inventory etc...

I've tried taking missions to corresponding Odyssey settlements like chemical plants, munition sites, mining settlements and finding crash sites, irregular markers, but in all that time I've only gathered a couple of each type.

Now I'm seeing that I can just buy these materials / data?

Is this through FCs and the bartender? If so how does that work and how can I tell if an FC has what I'm looking for?

I know this thread is about not taking the easy route but honestly, the way engineers work in ED, the scarcity of certain materials & data, the repetition, counter intuitive game play, relogging...in short the grind, I'll take any shortcut I can get.
 
Relogging is sadly the reliable way to get a lot of stuff. Impact sites with beacons will drop Topo surveys. The dead skimmer in IRs will drop Ballistics data. Chemical formulae is a mission reward and you (can) get more if you can haggle for it. Same with inventory data.
chemform.jpg

Edit: Just found this at my station on load.
 
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Relogging is sadly the reliable way to get a lot of stuff. Impact sites with beacons will drop Topo surveys. The dead skimmer in IRs will drop Ballistics data. Chemical formulae is a mission reward and you (can) get more if you can haggle for it. Same with inventory data.View attachment 308550
Edit: Just found this at my station on load.
Thanks for the tips.

Having looked into it further and using Inara to find FCs selling the bits I need, that seems even less reliable an avenue. Most of the Inara data is days or weeks old and even the ones showing less than 1hr old info were empty when I arrived.

Looks like it's going to be the grind.

Did FD learn nothing from Engineers in Horizons? They've made the same mistakes again plus a bunch of new ones...I just...nevermind :rolleyes:
 
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