My open letter to Fdev

[Nightshady]

Riddle me this: if you can just barge into Mobius and start murdering people whenever you want, then what is the point of Mobius in the first place?

Those players joined that group for a reason. Let them play the game, instead of using every excuse under the sun as a casus belli to invade them. When your solution to every problem is "invade Mobius", it stands to reason that you don't *really* care about any of the causes you are claiming to represent, but instead care about implementing your "solution" and will accept any cause as a pretext.

My ultimate goal was to enforce a blockade by any means necessary and with all tools at my discretion. We had members who had access to a server with 20K people. When there are no repercussions from doing so outside the wailing and gnashing of teeth seen here, why wouldn't we enforce the blockade there? Out of respect? For people who are aiding our enemies? Sorry, but no; I have no respect for those that aid my enemies. There was not a single ship in Mobius destroyed outside of the Segovan system. If we wanted to just cause chaos, we would have (and could have) killed players all across the Galaxy in the private server.

 

[Omgzzwtf]

Riddle me this: if you can just barge into Mobius and start murdering people whenever you want, then what is the point of Mobius in the first place?

Those players joined that group for a reason. Let them play the game, instead of using every excuse under the sun as a casus belli to invade them. When your solution to every problem is "invade Mobius", it stands to reason that you don't *really* care about any of the causes you are claiming to represent, but instead care about implementing your "solution" and will accept any cause as a pretext.

I agree, you see this a lot in these types of games, and in real life too. People will convince themselves they want to do something, then create any reason to justify it to themselves and others after the fact as to why they did it. I'm not anti-PvP, by any means, just because I don't participate actively doesn't mean that I don't enjoy it. It adds spice to playing the game, knowing that something terrible could befall me at a moments notice, totally throwing my plans to the wind. I play in open for this very reason. But again, forcing someone to play a certain way and then justifying it by saying that it is you that is the victim is flawed reasoning. I might have sympathized with 13th legion, had they not gone into a private group server for PvE to PvP with the people playing in it. I don't care what your reasons are for doing it, I don't care what your procedures were so as not to look like you were harassing them, you could have accomplished the exact same goal in open.

 

[Roybe]

You see, the thing is, if Solo/PG had it's own BGS, separate from Open's, I'd be totally down for that, as long as we get equivalent CG/PP treatment on a base level. That is to say we have CG's only affecting our BGS, and a PP that only affects our BGS.

What I mean is, I would be the first to support separate BGS' for Solo/PG & Open.

I know it can work, because unlike a lot of you here, I actually have experience of being in a separate BGS. It was called the Xbox One GPP. That's right. FD did in fact run the Xbox on its own BGS before official launch on that platform.

I don't see why separate BGS' are a problem. I certainly consider it an acceptable solution. But both BGS' need to receive the same content, of course. That's my only condition that I would lobby for. But I think that's fair.

It would create forked lore...as far as the lore of the game goes. Which would mean in the CG's, those that do have different outcomes...they would need two teams to create that content and inject it...and run it...and increase the amount of customer support needed as different BGS's would have different people finding the same problems in different areas....Oh, and the devs have said no.

 

[Deleted member 110222]

It would create forked lore...as far as the lore of the game goes. Which would mean in the CG's, those that do have different outcomes...they would need two teams to create that content and inject it...and run it...and increase the amount of customer support needed as different BGS's would have different people finding the same problems in different areas....Oh, and the devs have said no.

Fair play. I was looking at it from a purely technical point.

 

[Roybe]

Fair play. I was looking at it from a purely technical point.

There is no technical reason this could not be accomplished...I agree.

 

[Dave1235]

Well I certainly hope no large group of players get together and secretly infiltrate the 13th Legion as a massive long term undercover operation. That would just be so wrong. haha

it would be terrible if someone collected all their IP addresses and made a in-game block list, I could never agree with something like that

 

[ROSS-128]

My ultimate goal was to enforce a blockade by any means necessary and with all tools at my discretion. We had members who had access to a server with 20K people. When there are no repercussions from doing so outside the wailing and gnashing of teeth seen here, why wouldn't we enforce the blockade there? Out of respect? For people who are aiding our enemies? Sorry, but no; I have no respect for those that aid my enemies. There was not a single ship in Mobius destroyed outside of the Segovan system. If we wanted to just cause chaos, we would have (and could have) killed players all across the Galaxy in the private server.

So you're saying you should be banned, because that would be your consequences right there.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Out of respect? For people who are aiding our enemies?

No, for the guy whose ungodly job it is to manage this PG, has no help from FD and now has pillocks like you to deal with as well.

The one positive thing is, this option is now closed to you.

 

[VR Murgle]

i think you need to get on with the times lad
http://store.steampowered.com/app/359320
http://puu.sh/pZcgG/b4a0cebb63.png
it WAS and IS advertised as an MMO and everyone in Fdev will tell you that Elite is indeed a MMO game

I really don't care what it's advertised as, I care what is it and what is is not an MMO and I have been playing MMO's almost exclusively since 2001.

It's Multiplayer yes.
It's Massive yes.
It's even Online.

Tribes 2 was Multiplayer it was online and it could have I think it was (theoretically) 32 players playing the same map an MMO it was not.

The world in an MMO is persistant, the NPC are still doing their thing when you're not there, they don't need to be generated when you arrive. Wow started using phasing to be able to change the gameworld based on player actions and still have all players in the same instance. So while one player saw one version of the world an other saw a later version but they could still see each other. E: D doesn't have this kind of persistance.

In MMOs Mob's usually don't have names because they respawn and wouldn't it be silly if you had to kill the same NPC twice? Named NPCs are either quest givers or "Boss mobs" hidden in some instance. And yes MMOs do use instances but these are seperate from the gameworld because they are not persistant and can therefore not exist within said gameworld and sometimes instancing is used as an "overflow" for performance reasons.

MMOs use a server-client model to make sure everybody plays in the same world and not in a whole buch of indepentdant "copies" of the world. I say copies but in E: D the instances aren't even copies they all use the Background simulation but different NPCs are generated for ever single instance and the behaviour of these NPCs and location differs from instance to instance. They are similar but not the same.

Elite dangerous is not an MMO, not even a bad one. That would be SWTOR...(mind you SWTOR would have been decent single player RPG)

 

[Runnybabbit]

it would be terrible if someone collected all their IP addresses and made a in-game block list, I could never agree with something like that

...I can just hear Sgt Mjr Windsor Davies commenting on the resulting fallout now... "Oh dear, how sad, never mind.. you is'avin a bad day"!

 

[Avetorian]

I love how they say they "blockaded" a system. I'm sorry killing a handful of people in a private group and open play, in empty space, does not equal a blockade. See a blockade would be more like, Everyone has to enter into a specific area when they arrive, you have some serious firepower, capital ships and warp disruption deployables preventing anyone jumping from within a radius of say 30km. Then this blockade would have to affect EVERYONE entering that system. It would not be just an instance, you would not be able to switch modes to get out of it. You would have to arrive at that point any time you enter a system. OR! You have all this stuff infront of a station preventing anyone npcs or players from coming or going. Okay? That's a blockade.

Killing a handful of players is not.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

So who is going to be the one to take this too far and end this nightmare of a thread. Someone invoke Godwin's law and take one for the team so the mods can lock this.

For what it's worth I'm out of this thread, I see nothing constructive to be gained here even if someone gets the perfect answer to the Open/Solo/Groups CG bit it'll be swamped by the mode invasion blob.


My personal opinion is that there are too many people here acting like children on both sides, for what it's worth we've been here before. Literally the same arguments so allow me to repeat what I said a few months ago. Logic of arguement:
Parent: "don't stand on that chair"
*Child stands on table*
Parent "What did I tell you?"
Child "But i'm not on the chair, you said chair, I'm on a table!"

In the real world this would be met with a telling off and a "don't be cheeky". In this instance I feel a shadowban slap and a stern e-mail would be best. If FDev start throwing temp shadowbans about a bit more casually along with emails saying stuff like "We suspect you knew what you were doing, now you know for sure, take liberties with the rules again and the shadowban will become permanent" should send a message to those deliberately out there to see what they can get away with like children. Whilst simultaneously not causing any lasting damage or impact to any players.

Edited in for neutrality: Although the way some people have responded here is equally as childish and in some ways worse.

Anyway peace everyone, we all have different opinions but the level of comments in this thread will just lead to both sides getting equally ignored. Hopefully someone will close this mess and Frontier will start being a bit more forceful in future. As the example above, children will keep pushing the boundaries until they get a line drawn and I think it's time FDev drew that line where they wanted it. Word will spread fast enough.

Edit: Not aiming this directly at anyone specifically, please do not take offence if you are easily offended. I'm trying to remain neutral but it's difficult. This is how I feel this thread has gone and isn't deliberately pointing at anyone ^

 

[Turbosnowy]

My thoughts : I can see two sides of the argument and I think there are many more besides, but my thoughts are these:

Pro Mobius : Players joined this PVE group for a reason, to avoid PVP play and to be able to have joy when seeing another commander, to send greetings and foster friendships perhaps without the knot of fear that perhaps they are not friendly but mean me ill - the freedom to fly non combat ships laden with trade goods or scanners and only have NPCs to worry about, rather then come across someone with a fully equipped combat ship and far superior combat skills that you can't hope to match, even on your best day. To be invaded by PVPers when they have open to play with is an affront and goes against the entire concept and reson d'etre of the private group, and for this reason such actions should not be allowed.

Pro PVP/RP/PP: Solo/Priivate players affect the balance or power for everyone, including those who wholeheartedly partake in the ongoing storyline, pledging for powers and roleplaying protectors or soldier of their chosen faction. Whilst these players can affect other players in Open and pursue their goals they are otherwise blocked from the same efforts with regard to those players not in open, who can operate freely from any player imposed blockades and other actions designed to further powers/roleplaying goals. Certain Private player groups are very numerous in size, with an example being Mobius with a membership of tens of thousands - such numbers whilst certainly not all aligned to one goal, does mean that such partitioned players can affect powers/roleplaying objectives and therefore are eligible for counter efforts since their efforts affect everyone, i.e. since they can affect everyone, they must also be able to be affected.

Conclusion: All in all both sides have very fair and valid points. The issue is not I think with Mobius nor with 13th/Athena - both sides feel hard done by and for good reasons - the issue at heart I feel is that Frontier have a system which promotes player identification with factions, yet the player method of interaction with or otherwise influencing the story is much to be desired. It would seem fairer if Community Goals (CGs) as currently implemented (terribly in my opinion - seriously the way players interact with the galaxy is merely to count who can move the most bear asses from point a to point b?? Really?) were to be changed so that solo/private groups could no longer partake in CGs, especially if they affect faction powers in any way - since just as you may RP a loyal faction pilot with your hold full of bear asses, another player just as validly from an counter RP role may very well want to stop you - this is emergent and proper gameplay which is very much diminished by the current ability to revert to solo or private groups to avoid alternate minded players.

Now don't get me wrong, I think solo and private are very much need and great for the game, however I do think to avoid everyone getting upset in future Frontier need to make the decision to separate faction related CGs from solo/private modes. If you RP a faction soldier in solo/private modes then you should be prepared to fight for your faction - if this does not appeal, then no worries, just continue in solo/private modes but don't expect to do any faction CGs.

Of course this may be difficult depending on how the code was written, but it's not impossible

 

[Raisa]

So you're saying you should be banned, because that would be your consequences right there.

banned for what exactly ? going by the games rules and what Braben desired to happen?

 

[remowilliams]

While the BGS/CG mechanics are certainly a topic of discussion, the second part about screwing with Mobius players 'ya know because, reasons, RP, lol' isn't. And outside FDs terms Wheaton's Law pretty much covers it.

 

[FireFox13]

(note E: D is not an MMO) .

Doiiiiing ! Fatal error !!!

Elite is "Massively Multiplayer Online", remember the official description on Steam for example :
"Massively Multiplayer. Experience unpredictable encounters with players from around the world in Elite Dangerous’ vast massively multiplayer space."

Nice try...

 

[Darrett]

banned for what exactly ? going by the games rules and what Braben desired to happen?

That's my question as well. The only thing I could see happening is people being removed from the Mobius PG. As far as I know, there is nothing in the ToS that tells us we have to abide by whatever arbitrary rules a private group decides to come up with.

 

[ROSS-128]

banned for what exactly ? going by the games rules and what Braben desired to happen?

He asked for consequences, and that's the only real consequence that can be meted out other than just being booted from the group (which has already happened anyway). A reasonable case could be made for greifing: the people in that group are there to avoid exactly what he did, so joining the group and killing them anyway could easily be considered greifing.

They could have left well enough alone, but people with that kind of "if I don't get banned for it, it's fair game" attitude are why we can't have nice things.

 

[VR Murgle]

We did blockade Mobius. After we killed a few dozen ships, we didn't see a soul for days. It was so slow that we started killing NPC's and authority which triggered Lockdown and the market shutdown. And we did blockade Open as well. We had wings in both Mobius and Open. And I'm not sure how to say this any clearer than the first 1000x I've said it... breaking a private server's arbitrary rules DOES NOT constitute harassment per FD's own words.

You knew what Mobius was about, you knew the people there could not defend themselves unless they themselves broke the rules. Now while it may not constitute harrasment according the official Frontier policy it is a very unpleasant thing to do which is exactly why you did it. You wanted attention, you got it and yet you didn't get what you wanted. You tried and failed now what does that tell you?

 

[Rambo the 13th]

I love how they say they "blockaded" a system. I'm sorry killing a handful of people in a private group and open play, in empty space, does not equal a blockade. See a blockade would be more like, Everyone has to enter into a specific area when they arrive, you have some serious firepower, capital ships and warp disruption deployables preventing anyone jumping from within a radius of say 30km. Then this blockade would have to affect EVERYONE entering that system. It would not be just an instance, you would not be able to switch modes to get out of it. You would have to arrive at that point any time you enter a system. OR! You have all this stuff infront of a station preventing anyone npcs or players from coming or going. Okay? That's a blockade.

Killing a handful of players is not.

We killed over a hundered, hardly a handful.