Nerf Reverski

I like the thinking but it probably isn't that simple, when fa off boosting you'll be going 'slightly' backwards at times, and it would be most annoying for the sake of a degree or two, .

My thinking was that engaging the reverse thrusters should increase heat, so drifting 'backwards' FA-OFF would have no effect unless e.g. -100% thrust is also applied for many seconds. More of a balancing idea than a 'fix'. Prolonged reverski would cook your ship.
 
So, to address the actual, and eminently silly, topic of discussion.

Where do I start. I guess I'll just address what seem to be the three most common suggestions/arguments thrown around here to address the "issue".

Suggestion 1: Just remove/nerf the reverse thrusters!

If you remembered something from Mechanics 101 from your high school physics, you would know the reason people can reverse is not the size of their forward-mounted thrusters, but Newton's First Law, right? Remove the thrusters, people will just boost forward, flip around 180° and merrily continue to reverse.

Suggestion 2: Make it so that people MUST use FAOFF in order to reverse! Make ED game of SKILL again!

But this is already the case. All of these skilless noob pilots in their Anacondas are already using FAOFF to reverse at full speed.

Suggestion 3: I've never participated in a PVP fight in my life, but just turn around and go away lol!

Two things to consider here.

A) The guy using reverski on you is most likely interested in continuing the engagement. Why? Because if he wanted to escape he could do so by flying forward and it would be more efficient for him to do so as he could FSD out faster that way. Which leads to the next point.

B) If he can consistently avoid you by reversing, it means he has most likely more powerful thrusters than you and can also chase you down. The moment he notices you distancing yourself, he'll boost and reduce the distance to whatever he feels is the most comfortable and continue to DPS you. He isn't actually reversing because he wants to get away from you, he reverses to keep you in the optimal range for his weapons, and he can also thrust forward for the same effect, if the distance gets too great.

But a-ha! Now he is the one chasing YOU, and you have the high ground and can use the terrifying, overpowered tactic of reverski on him! Give him back his own medicine!

Maybe you can somehow keep up the self-delusion and convince yourself the situation is different and not shatter your conception of reverski as some kind of a special coward tactic that wins every fight. Chances are most likely your opponent is simply the better pilot, has better thrusters, better shield/armor, better DPS and he will still beat you.

His thrusters allow him to dictate the terms of the fight by controlling the distance at which he engages. He may be fluent enough in the game's meta and the stats of the different weapons to know which is the most effective range for your weapons, and which one is the most effective range for him, stay out of your effective range, and stay in his.

Yeah, it's fundamentally facetanking, and I can somewhat sympathise with the opinion that facetanking is not terribly exciting compared to those atmospheric flight sims and their dogfighting. Thing is, there is really no way to emulate that in a space game, without adding things like simulated aerodynamics, gravity and the ground plane to enable all the tactical considerations that make dogfighting in an atmosphere interesting. And at that point you have just made an atmospheric flight sim. 6DOF flight, and the freedom to move backwards and sideways and every which way is the only way to prevent dogfights from turning into deadlocks where two ships endlessly chase each other's tail because the first one to turn away gets blasted into their six and loses. Facetanking may not be the most fun way to resolve fights, but at least it is a way to resolve them.

The bonus argument: Suggestion 4: Bring back Newtonian flight! Long live FE2!

I don't think removing the top speeds would fundamentally change combat either (though I would still love it for the realism) It's because the only "speed" that actually matters in a fight between two ships is the relative velocity between those two ships, and if both players are interested in continuing the engagement, they will stay in relatively slow velocities compared to each other, and all the tactics we currently use would still apply, reverski, circlestrafing, facetanking, staying in optimal weapons range, all that. It might enable high speed jousting as an alternative tactic, but that doesn't sound much more exciting, does it?
 
Word!

Reverski makes pew pew in ED just a bit silly.

Now let us ignore physics because ED does.

Ships are given a set forward speed and this forward speed is given by the visually large engines and the wonderful boost.

Most directions for the ship are controlled by the smaller thrusters.

I don't see a backwards facing thruster on any of the ships, so why can they fly backwards so fast?

On the contrary, you are ignoring physics in above statements, not ED.

In space (for the lack of air resistance), larger engines give more acceleration, not speed.
In space, speed(velocity) is not limited by thruster power and given enough engine work time is free to increase to huge numbers (before you approach speed of light and relativistic effects).

Whatever direction velocity restriction there is (as in ED), is entirely artificial for various plot reasons. E.g. in ED its just a computer-imposed restriction "for the sake of safety" (in-game explanation) or just "devs trying to make gameplay more fun" (real-world explanation).

ED thrusters are ridiculously OP and even with "smaller" ones just enough acceleration to give impression of even giant ships being "just somewhat sluggish". So if not for above artificial speed limiter, ships could fly in reverse (or any other direction) at much more ridiculous speeds as they are now.

Edit: since restrictions are arbitrary, of course they could "nerf" reverse max speeds or alter them in any other way. But it would have nothing to to with "being realistic" - just another handwavium "for the sake of gameplay we/I think would be better".
 
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The real reason they don't want reverse thrusters is because their overloaded corvettes can't keep up.

Yes. If, as suggested above, one ship can reverse faster than another can boost, the boosting one is carrying far too many hull reinforcements! It's a problem with his ship build, not the tactics of the reverser.
 
I run a shield-tanking Corvette, almost purely for PVE and there's only minimal deviations to that for PVP survivability in open. I can boost at 396m/s after the 3.0 engineering changes so if someone's reverski'ing on me faster than that then I'm happy to wake out and let them run.

This mentality of requiring a kill out of every encounter is little bit stupid. That's not how this game works and it's certainly not how conflicts work in the real world either. It's a misguided feeling of entitlement for a select few PVP players and I actually get my kicks out of depriving them. (yeah, hypocritical - I know, but I'm playing how *I* want to).
 
Gonna bump this thread because I believe It is an important point to discuss for the future of the game.

And I'll also give my 2 cents on the matter.

I also believe that this should be looked upon and do something about it, as it goes against the very philosophy of the game as it was sold to us, WW2 dogfight in space.

This manoeuvre is just silly and I consider it nothing short of anti-gameplay.

Why you may ask ?

Because anyone performing a reversky with big super tanky ships is effectively denying any possibility of overcoming the challenge, and with only one possible outcome.

Fights stop being a skill challenge and become a dull and tedious hull contest. We could very well just put one ship in front of another, and victory will be determined not by the pilots skill but by the amount of hull armour, and the power of the shield. Where is the WW2 skill full dogfight in this ?
Nowhere, that's where !

Yes having this option might be more close to reality according to newton laws, but in a video game, gameplay must always prevail over realism.
While realism must be preserved in some areas in order to maintain suspension of disbelief, the fun and entertaining factor must be predominant in any video game.

If "dogfighting" becomes boring and dull why should I do it ?

Why should I bother playing with small fast and nimble ships if its main advantage will be constantly nullified against big ships because of this ?
What is people going to do then ?
They are going to grind the game until they get also a big tanky ship, and level the field !

I am convinced that "reversky", while not the only factor, remains a VERY strong one as to why some players think the game is a grind and they will only be able to play the way the want, when and only when, they unlock one of the so called "big 3".

And to people telling me that this is the only way they can effectively defend themselves against small ships, I say you don't deserve to fly those ships, since clearly you don't know how to use them.

They are clearly telling me that the only way they will be able to outperform a nimble eagle, with 2 small hard-points and one medium, and paper thin shields and a nearly non existent hull, whose only advantage against a 1000 hull cutter and bajillions of MW of engineered shields, plus I don't know how many small, medium big and huge hard-points, plus SLF, plus multicrew capability, is its speed and agility...

...is to perform a manoeuvre that requires no skill whatsoever and effectively nullifies the one and only advantage the eagle, or any small ship for that matter, has, killoing instantly any chance of confrontation of any kind then and there !

You must be joking !

In the real world you would be called a genius, but one does not play games in order to emulate the real world, but to escape it.

Oh and I'm pretty sure that in the real word none of this will be possible, since there most likelly will never be plane shaped ships to begin with, and any kind of confrontation will be done as turrets in space as it where.


One of the main mantras of the game as it was sold was that no matter what ship you use, you will be able to do anything that the game offers.

This means that even with a sidewinder, granted maybe not a stock one but nevertheless a sidewinder, I should be able to challenge a big ship with enough skill. It might not be easy, far from it. It might be SUPER hard, but still possible nonetheless.

As it stands right now, if nothing is done to correct this, FD might just as well ad to the store page of the game "blaze your trail" *

*provided you have a Cutter, Fer de lance, Corvette, Anaconda, and know how to reversky.
 
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I cant seriously beleive you guys want to turn FD's "balance" team on to the way thrusters work. There are so many positive things that could be done with the game and thrusters work ok.
If a few PVPers feel cheated because they cant pull off the latest fashion in combat maneuvering, thats fine with me.
If those who want this get their way every time there is a new combat tactic they cant handle there will just be endless whine till the game is adjusted to the level of their incompetence.
Thrusters are fine FD just pretend this thread didnt happen. Nothing to see here, no reason to trot out the "balance" hammer.
 
I cant seriously beleive you guys want to turn FD's "balance" team on to the way thrusters work. There are so many positive things that could be done with the game and thrusters work ok.
If a few PVPers feel cheated because they cant pull off the latest fashion in combat maneuvering, thats fine with me.
If those who want this get their way every time there is a new combat tactic they cant handle there will just be endless whine till the game is adjusted to the level of their incompetence.
Thrusters are fine FD just pretend this thread didnt happen. Nothing to see here, no reason to trot out the "balance" hammer.

Eaxctly, the PVP gang has this thing called 'honour', they can just update their rules to say "no CombatLog and NO reverski", done.
 
I cant seriously beleive you guys want to turn FD's "balance" team on to the way thrusters work. There are so many positive things that could be done with the game and thrusters work ok.
If a few PVPers feel cheated because they cant pull off the latest fashion in combat maneuvering, thats fine with me.
If those who want this get their way every time there is a new combat tactic they cant handle there will just be endless whine till the game is adjusted to the level of their incompetence.
Thrusters are fine FD just pretend this thread didnt happen. Nothing to see here, no reason to trot out the "balance" hammer.
They're really not ok, and FDev have already basically affected how they work indirectly. By adding ships with faster and faster pitch (without comparable increases in acceleration and speed), adding ships that care less and less about the blue zone, and making boost so readily available, they've already quite thoroughly undermined everything that made their flight model unique and fun. Reverski is a problem that's been there since the beginning, but wasn't as big of a deal when ships couldn't pitch as quickly. Now that FDev has screwed up so many other facets, reverski has become all the more problematic.

Try fighting a FAS or chieftain using a more classic-style combat ship, such as a viper. You'll notice that without lots of boosting and some mad flying, you will keep ending up in a head-to-head position with the enemy- even when fighting NPCs.
 
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They're really not ok, and FDev have already basically affected how they work indirectly. By adding ships with faster and faster pitch (without comparable increases in acceleration and speed), adding ships that care less and less about the blue zone, and making boost so readily available, they've already quite thoroughly undermined everything that made their flight model unique and fun. Reverski is a problem that's been there since the beginning, but wasn't as big of a deal when ships couldn't pitch as quickly. Now that FDev has screwed up so many other facets, reverski has become all the more problematic.

Try fighting a FAS or chieftain using a more classic-style combat ship, such as a viper. You'll notice that without lots of boosting and some mad flying, you will keep ending up in a head-to-head position with the enemy- even when fighting NPCs.
Yep - try getting behind a dangerous-or-higher ranked NPC Python in a CZ now. It's a lot harder. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing, mind, but I can imagine that the manoeuvrability buff has made PvP less engaging.
 
I hope you're not suggesting that thing can take off backwards. :p

Making that much thrust do a full 180 degree turn will rob a lot more than 50% of it. I'd say you've proved Elite is 'unfeasible' with that image. ;)

I'm sure they could take off backwards IF they had proper aerodinamic desing but clearly their wings aren't designed to do that.

You kinda need air for that.

You're welcome.

Isn't hydrogen a gas? Either way, our ships seem to be spewing out something. I wonder if it is solid?
 
Yep - try getting behind a dangerous-or-higher ranked NPC Python in a CZ now. It's a lot harder. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing, mind, but I can imagine that the manoeuvrability buff has made PvP less engaging.
It's fun when the challenge comes from clever maneuvers. It's not fun when the challenge comes from the opponent just pitching up and drifting in reverse over and over. Even when they're losing the face tank fight, still just sliding in reverse and slogging away. Of course, that's what super high, blue-zone-independant pitch coupled with garbage acceleration leads to.
 
Yep - try getting behind a dangerous-or-higher ranked NPC Python in a CZ now. It's a lot harder. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing, mind, but I can imagine that the manoeuvrability buff has made PvP less engaging.

Try an NPC FAS. Don't know why, but that seems to be the only ship I can't really outmaneuver in a lightweight, high-speed Courier. I have to get creative to avoid their fire; I'd imagine getting behind a player-flown FAS would be an impossible task nowadays...

I have tried to get behind player-flown ships in the past. Here's a video from when I was piloting an Eagle to figure out exactly how a player-flown FDL flies:

[video=youtube_share;Bp5TQ-xFyfc]https://youtu.be/Bp5TQ-xFyfc[/video]

I think this video neatly demonstrates part of the problem that Frenotx outlined here (emphasis mine):

They're really not ok, and FDev have already basically affected how they work indirectly. By adding ships with faster and faster pitch (without comparable increases in acceleration and speed), adding ships that care less and less about the blue zone, and making boost so readily available, they've already quite thoroughly undermined everything that made their flight model unique and fun. Reverski is a problem that's been there since the beginning, but wasn't as big of a deal when ships couldn't pitch as quickly. Now that FDev has screwed up so many other facets, reverski has become all the more problematic.

Try fighting a FAS or chieftain using a more classic-style combat ship, such as a viper. You'll notice that without lots of boosting and some mad flying, you will keep ending up in a head-to-head position with the enemy- even when fighting NPCs.

Granted I was barrel-rolling to prevent the other player from using his PA's, but still - it's difficult to stay out of a half-decent player's firing arc for more than a few seconds at best.

Also ninja edit about the NPC FAS, lol.
 
Here's one good argument - if you don't like what your opponent is doing - walk away from it. Unless of course you're so addicted to a pixel explosion that you'd rather see the game turned even more arcade than it already is :)

I'm all for realism but a completely newtonian model would be fairly bad for the style ED is. It'd pretty much become KSP which I'll tell you, nobody uses for pew pew which oh! its an advertised part of the game.
 

thats first 30 seconds feel like nearly entering the letterbox and realising I have forgotten landing permission, I just twist my cutter to get stuck in the box and then full reverse waiting for inwertia finally giving me back thrust to escape xD


It's fun when the challenge comes from clever maneuvers. It's not fun when the challenge comes from the opponent just pitching up and drifting in reverse over and over. Even when they're losing the face tank fight, still just sliding in reverse and slogging away. Of course, that's what super high, blue-zone-independant pitch coupled with garbage acceleration leads to.

If it works better on that ship it is the clever maneuver, just because it isn't the maneuver you would like to see makes it not less clever. AAnd pVP meta is boring anways so yeah "fun" what reason.
 
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If it works better on that ship it is the clever maneuver, just because it isn't the maneuver you would like to see makes it not less clever.
Not even going to touch that.

AAnd pVP meta is boring anways so yeah "fun" what reason.
How on earth is "thing X is boring" a good justification for not changing thing X? Yes it is boring, but the whole point of changes like these are to make it less boring. I feel like that's a pretty simple concept.
 
Look, Reverse is already nerfed. With FA on its limited to 60% of the ships speed and you can't boost in reverse, boost always accelerates you forward. With FA off you're flying away faster but an easier target and just about ANY ship that can configure its pips to keep boosting can catch you. If you're in a big ship and good enough in FA off flight you can probably give them a bit of a pasting as they come in - so long as "good enough" means "good enough with fixed weapons in FA off flight" because they can chaff all the way in (they did remember to load chaff didn't they?) And if you're in a big ship and they are in a little one, I hope you can stand the shame when you star in the youtube vid titled "Noob in a cutter runs away from a sidey"

As it stands, a good enough pilot in a smaller ship can reliably win against - but not necessarily destroy - a lesser one in in a bigger ship that likes to fly reverski. With a greater differential in skill level the little ship might get to see that nice expensive explosion fairly frequently.

Reverski is a big ship and a pilot short of skill running away from you. Bask in it. Point and laugh all you want. Just don't come on here and make like it's some humungous exploit or imbalance because it isn't.

23 pages, zero content.

FD have better things to write code for than wiping your nose and soothing your sniffles over not getting to blow up that defeated opponent. This? Important? Fixing the dangling wires in my 'condas cockpit or cleaning the windshield on my Vulture are more important than messing with reverse throttle.
 
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