New mining system - really stretching the LEP "it isn't an expansion" excuse.

[O'Roarke]

[...] if Frontier said the next EA is a couple of years instead of a couple of months. Would that still be okay? Why or why not? [...]

It would be ok, because it's their product that they're trying to sell.
Wether the customers will accept it is another.

I've avoided all EA ship purchases, except for one.
That's because they knew exactly how to pull my heartstrings.
The Kestrel's looks, loadout, marketing are exactly right - and the stats/numbers were spot on.

Surely they're aware that the EA ship/vessel method is driving some people away.
But it, for now, has more upsides then downsides, otherwise they'd stop it.

 

[Sylow]

Hmmmm. Are we looking at the same numbers? ED is only a very small part of FDev and it has never seen the growth as the other IPs. I never played the others, but are Jurassic World Evolution or the Planet-branch online games? ED needs a online infrastructure and therefore a steady income to keep the servers up and running.

And once again i was wrong. I assumed you would read the complete passage there, instead of ripping out one line of the text and trying to turn it into something different. I am sorry again, that i assumed too much.

Also, i assumed that links provided would either be taken as evidence, or being used and read and then accepted as evidence. Would you have done that, you could also have attacked my position. In a better way. Because the reports there indeed only state that ED is in a solid state and is lucrative, but does not go into details. For that i would have have to go for the share holder presentation. So, you could have asked for the numbers. That would have been a valid approach to answer this.

It does have a steady income (they sell the game for money), and I wouldn't expect server costs to be particularly significant given they went with a peer-to-peer model that puts as much of the work as possible onto the user.
Frontier servers just handle authentication and instancing, and that cost should be completely negligible per-player.
Not zero, but just in a slightly higher tier than how their other games also need a website which they have to keep running.

There was a very interesting Tex talk or something like that at the games release. Where they showed the infrastructure used, the costs for the servers (rented from amazon) and how they managed to reduce operational costs to a minimum.

Among the points described there:

• How the BGS always slidies back to a default state. And only differences to the default being saved, so even harddisc and database space can be minimized.
• How they minimized traffic and the corresponding infrastructure costs for their servers.
• How the P2P allows them to run only a small number of servers worldwide, which coordinate the P2P connections.

So, you are completely right there: the infrastructure we have in ED is built to minimize costs. And according to the statements at that time, at least, was quite successfully doing that. (So the sarcastic voice in me tells me: if operation costs for ED are an issue for FD, then how many millions of loss does ArenaNet suffer per month? They even have the old GW1 servers still up and running... )

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

The morally correct thing for FDEV to do is giving everything in the ARX store to the LEPers for free. Every PJ, every bobblehead, every pre-built ship. And yes, the EA ships and Dodec voucher, too. And since they've weaseled out of it for so long, they should pack some extra on top of it as well as an honest excuse. Every other behavior will keep their public profile on the low end. Try to become the next NMS redemption story!

No, and I say that as someone who has the LEP. Cosmetics were never part of the deal. What I personally think we should have gotten would be the shipyard unlock of every new ship/vessel/station on the day of preARXess release. Not even the standard package with the insta deploy. It's IMO ok if they want payment for that. But the shipyard unlock to buy the new thing with credits on day one. We should have gotten that.

 

[vanFace]

No, and I say that as someone who has the LEP. Cosmetics were never part of the deal. What I personally think we should have gotten would be the shipyard unlock of every new ship/vessel/station on the day of preARXess release. Not even the standard package with the insta deploy. It's IMO ok if they want pyment for that. But the shipyard unlock to buy the new thing with credits on day one. We should have gotten that.

Well, maybe... but with this attitude you got nothing in the end. The ARX cosmetics were just the thin end of the wedge, and the middle of it came with the Dodec. Ok, that was shoved back a bit, but I'm pretty sure it won't stop the thick end going in for too long.

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

Well, maybe... but with this attitude you got nothing in the end. The ARX cosmetics were just the thin end of the wedge, and the middle of it came with the Dodec. Ok, that was shoved back a bit, but I'm pretty sure it won't stop the thick end going in for too long.

Our LEP payment counting for getting every new ship 3-4 months before everyone else (unless they pay extra per ship) is not nothing.

 

[vanFace]

Our LEP payment counting for getting every new ship 3-4 months before everyone else (unless they pay extra per ship) is not nothing.

What I meant was that NOW you got nothing. Like in: instead of wanting everything and only getting something, wanting a "reasonable" thing and getting nothing.

 

[Gorrister]

No, and I say that as someone who has the LEP. Cosmetics were never part of the deal. What I personally think we should have gotten would be the shipyard unlock of every new ship/vessel/station on the day of preARXess release. Not even the standard package with the insta deploy. It's IMO ok if they want pyment for that. But the shipyard unlock to buy the new thing with credits on day one. We should have gotten that.

Thats actually a good idea.

 

[nanothargon]

On value-for-money of LEP - I have no idea about the levels of LEP and other things, but as a founding backer / leper (I'd shake your hand, but.. er..), as well as the other stuff (free exclusive ship, in game messages, npc, literal planet, paint job, suit, digital downloads, stuff...) I also have a greatly reduced rebuy for... EVERYTHING. So, 1v1 me bro. I've lost T10s with reactive armour, A rated Cutters... pocket change. Also recently, I've been losing prebuild, Arx-ships, and paying 0 credits for the rebuy, and 0 credits to deploy. Pay to win, for the win. I WANT to pay, because I want the game to be available and I understand that this imposes operating costs on Frontier. Whatever the economic model is, I will pay "some cash" per unit time, to continue to play the game, because I enjoy the game. I'm not talking "whale" money, I just mean a "reasonable" amount to cover server bills.

As far as backing other franchises... 8 year-old me would laugh at the idea of doing anything else. Other games are at best a shabby imitation of Elite. Why bother, when Elite is right there. It's like putting lime conserve on your toast when Nutella exists. Why would you do that? Elite is better. Pewpew. Zoom, swoosh, kaboom. Awesomeness, with friends.

I'm happy with my decision. The same is not true of backers/investors in other games/studios. David Braben is a national treasure, should be a Knight by now. Frontier is - well - not beyond criticism, but certainly worthy of loyalty and support. "Per Ardua ad Astra" and all that. Keep the lights on folks, we have a global cultural movement now.

 

[Tifu]

What I personally think we should have gotten would be the shipyard unlock of every new ship/vessel/station on the day of preARXess release. Not even the standard package with the insta deploy.

Thats actually a good idea.

I agree, it's a great idea. And probably the easiest to implement.

 

[Sevenperry]

As a LEP buyer I have come to realise that no-one cares what I think about it in general…..or at least no-one that matters.

 

[Gorrister]

I agree, it's a great idea. And probably the easiest to implement.

Also since LEPers are a minority, there should be no financial impact for FD.

 

[Markov Chaney Again]

PS: It just occured to me, there are over 6339 LEPers out there...

Crikey. That's more than I thought when I was banging on about the power or lack of power of complaining, earlier on.

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

Crikey. That's more than I thought when I was banging on about the power or lack of power of complaining, earlier on.

The bigger question is, how many of those are still actively playing ?

 

[Markov Chaney Again]

Oh right, well that is just semantics.

I (ironically) don't know what this means.

The fact that the early access restriction is for a limited (unspecified) period still makes that a "paywall" (which is just a quick cliche to convey a meaning in one word) even if it is only a temporary one.

Cool, that does answer my question.

So you're saying the fact that LEP members get the content for free after four months is irrelevant to the complaint that LEP members don't get things for free. Got it!

That of course was (is) my whole position - "paywall" has a lower photon casualty rate.

Okeydoke. You didn't express that anywhere which is why I queried it.

Our interpretation / attitude to FDEV's treatment of LEP account holders is obviously divergent but again that is OK. I have no issue with people having a different interpretation to me.

Well, thank you for answering. I still feel like when there's four pages of a thread with multiple people talking about the "semantics" of the four-month EA situation you don't need someone to explictly type "DOUG WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT EARLY ACCESS QUESTION MARK" but in future threads I will try and remember we need to do that.

If you're against semantics I am wondering how we will continue to use words to convey meaning in these threads at all, however.

 

[Dougie]

...
So you're saying the fact that LEP members get the content for free after four months is irrelevant to the complaint that LEP members don't get things for free. Got it!
...

I think you are looking to make an argument for the sake of it.

Through all of this I have made it quite clear that I am not on about "getting stuff for free" I am on about the fact that this Rhinoplasty thing is introducing a new game mechanic (call it what you like) and it is therefore at least bordering on being an expansion of the game (it expands game play beyond what is available otherwise) and so it is rather disingenuous of FDEV to not give access to LEP accounts.

... bye

 

[Markov Chaney Again]

Right, but it's still the case that non-LEP players and LEP players WILL have access to the mechanic, on an equal footing, after four months. I do agree it wouldn't harm FDev at all to just include EA in the LEP deal, which I think is what you're saying too.

Until next time ... o7

 

[Flimley]

The bigger question is, how many of those are still actively playing ?

I would certainly put it in double figures

 

[Darth Ender]

I jump on to top up the carrier every year or so these days. Still waiting for the next gen overpowered combat ship to really consider playing a bunch. Or at least a ship that doesn't look like it was designed for atmo flight and ww1 dogfighting.

Regarding my lep, i just figured it was something fdev decided long ago to stop caring about. But if they wanna throw some pre engineered cargo racks our way, that would be nice.

 

[Sylow]

No, and I say that as someone who has the LEP. Cosmetics were never part of the deal. What I personally think we should have gotten would be the shipyard unlock of every new ship/vessel/station on the day of preARXess release. Not even the standard package with the insta deploy. It's IMO ok if they want payment for that. But the shipyard unlock to buy the new thing with credits on day one. We should have gotten that.

I am split on this. Would they have played is straight from the start, i would have been quite happy with a moderate Arx stipend. Open communication, explaining that they needed more money, yet showing some respect to those who paid plenty already. 1k Arx a month would merely be one of the four vessels a year, without any cosmetics. The rest would still be there to be bought. Depending on when you bought the LEP, it would still require you to play for 10 years for it to pay off.

At that time, i would have been very happy with that way. But the way things were done, with all lawyer speak instead of proper communication, and after all these years, making up for this behaviour indeed would require more. What you suggest would be one step to rebuilding FDs reputation. But it would also require them to keep up their good behaviour.

They acted in bad faith for a long time. Broke a lot of porcelain. Fixing that is work.

Right, but it's still the case that non-LEP players and LEP players WILL have access to the mechanic, on an equal footing, after four months. I do agree it wouldn't harm FDev at all to just include EA in the LEP deal, which I think is what you're saying too.

Maybe four months. Or how long ever FD decides that they want to have their customers, who already paid, to wait for content which actually is already in game.

I respect your point of view, but i still think that your perception is a bit off here. In my eyes, this is content which we already paid for. And when it is released to the public, people who already have paid for the product have to pay again to actually get the content. With the blocking point being purely lawyer speak, that the same thing, called by another name, suddenly is something very different. And i would like to reply: A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

But i am glad that in the end we can agree on the part that FD messed up here and it would be helpful if they fixed that. I have little confidence that this would ever happen, but it would be the right thing to do. Based on what others wrote here, it seems like i am not the only one deciding where his gaming money goes, based on how the developer/publisher behaves towards, or in this case against the customer.

 

[amigacooke]

So, you are completely right there: the infrastructure we have in ED is built to minimize costs. And according to the statements at that time, at least, was quite successfully doing that.

Can the cost of running the game infrastructure really be significant if, after 4 years, Frontier are still prepared to keep the Legacy infrastructure running for an ever decreasing player base?