New Planet Tech is KILLER of Exploration (all terrain is tiling/repeating/not procedural/random)

Hey - I've contributed. I've not said there aren't issues. I have said that I have not witnessed the copy-pasta myself. Doesn't mean it isn't there.

I have not dismissed anyone's complaint, but I rail at hyperbole and people who go out of there way to dismiss my assertions that I could possibly contribute to anything by diminishing my opinions as minority, or my attempts at reducing the heat of the conversation by injecting genuine humour.

If you think it's passive aggressive, look at your own attitude first. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all!
 
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"Minor" correction:
There is one thing that, honestly, burns my eyes both in this thread title and quite a few of your posts - there is close to nothing "random" in ED universe, with Horizons or Odyssey. The random things could not be exactly repeated/replicated - so only "random" artifacts one can encounter are always instance/commander depended. All the rest is calculated/created/placed either mathematically, either by hand. (no, it's not even about "true"/"pseudo" random)

Indeed. The word you are searching for is "deterministic", which is the exact opposite of random :)

I don't think that's the right "hill to die on" though. You can have pseudo-random number generators that are 100% deterministic, that's not a problem. It's just less precise to use the term "pseudo-random" as a blanket term, since not all pseudo-randomness is deterministic (in fact it can require more complexity to remove or hide the determinism, depending on the context). Most proc-gen systems do use a form of deterministic pseudo-randomness with probability tables and/or noise generators (etc). So it really comes down to how specific or precise you want your statement to be, but pseudo-randomness doesn't have to be inherently non-deterministic (though it can be).

/pedantic ;)
 
159 pages ... as far as I can see only two things will stop this thread spinning round and round.

1) someone will overstep the mark, make things really personal, and the mod's will step in with their "this has run its course" response and close the thread.

2) FD MUST be aware of this thread, if Arf would simply post in here with his new found brutal honesty and say either a) yes, we're aware of the copy/pasta being far too noticeable, it's a bug and we're working to fix it; or b) yes, we're aware of the copy/pasta but I'm afraid this is currently working as intended and have no immediate plans to change it.
 
159 pages ... as far as I can see only two things will stop this thread spinning round and round.

1) someone will overstep the mark, make things really personal, and the mod's will step in with their "this has run its course" response and close the thread.

2) FD MUST be aware of this thread, if Arf would simply post in here with his new found brutal honesty and say either a) yes, we're aware of the copy/pasta being far too noticeable, it's a bug and we're working to fix it; or b) yes, we're aware of the copy/pasta but I'm afraid this is currently working as intended and have no immediate plans to change it.
Well there's always the end of the world...

And there's heat death. Eventually there's no point in adding to is and it will get to a point where replying will be a necro strike...

But yes, one of those. 🤪
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
I don't think that's the right "hill to die on" though. You can have pseudo-random number generators that are 100% deterministic, that's not a problem. It's just less precise to use the term "pseudo-random" as a blanket term, since not all pseudo-randomness is deterministic (in fact it can require more complexity to remove or hide the determinism, depending on the context). Most proc-gen systems do use a form of deterministic pseudo-randomness with probability tables and/or noise generators (etc). So it really comes down to how specific or precise you want your statement to be, but pseudo-randomness doesn't have to be inherently non-deterministic (though it can be).

/pedantic ;)
Not a hill to die on, just proposing a more accurate term for the discussion that is all, especially given that "random" is the opposite of what is going on here. As it happens deterministic and procedural generation techniques can and do make use of discrete bulding blocks, among other things. As oposed to just "random". The challenge is obviously to make those virtually undetectable.
 
Not a hill to die on, just proposing a more accurate term for the discussion that is all. As it happens deterministic and procedural generation techniques can and do make use of discrete bulding blocks, among other things. As oposed to just "random". The challenge is to make them virtually undetectable.
And the reason to use them is the speed of generating the scene!
 
This might be an unpopular opinion, but I'm enjoying the new planets so far. To a point, with caveats, and of course there's always room for improvement no matter how good it is (or isn't). ;)

Initially I was disappointed, like many others, since it looked like all of the bodies were the same boring little dust balls. But now that I've had some time with it, I'm noticing some more variety. And I'm not going out of my way to find the repeating patterns, because I know I won't be able to un-see them. :D Using layered and tiled assets comes with several advantages and disadvantages of course, which I know have been discussed pretty thoroughly here.

I think from my perspective, there are several points that are either trade-offs, or just unfortunate. This is excluding technical merits (such as performance, and what structures can be constructed entirely from noise generators / heightmap algorithms), but rather more of a "look and feel" kind of thing:

  • I enjoyed the variety of colors in the Horizons/Beyond era (after the beigification was fixed). There seems to be a much more narrow range of colors now, at least partly in an effort to add more realism.
  • Mountains and deep canyons or valleys are more rare. They exist, but I don't see anything (so far) at a scale comparable to what we had before. I think realism is part of the motivation here again. Smaller, low-gravity bodies can support larger structures, but would also tend to lack some of the geological processes needed to create them, for instance, which I think is part of the reason we see fewer of these structures. I'm torn on this, because having things that are more rare also makes them more special when you find them. But if they're rare enough that they might not even exist, as far as your own perspective is concerned? Hmm.
  • These realism choices are areas in which I think it's OK to fudge things for artistic purposes. But where to draw that line is a complex question, because there are many different opinions on this.
  • Some of the specific places that had interesting features have now become boring dust balls. ;)
And I still think it's potentially a bug that so many of the craters are applied to the height map before finer details are applied, as if most of the local geology formed after the crater.

I haven't read the whole thread, but I know I'm not saying anything new. ;)

Anyway, despite all of this, I think a handful of places actually got more interesting. The planet that I used for my SRV circumnavigation looks better now, IMHO.

Horizons:

2018-10-05%2012-53-26%20Gandharvi.jpg


Odyssey:

2021-05-29%2001-57-19%20Smojeia%20LI-E%20c14-1.jpg
 
I'll just have to assume, from the empirical evidence above, that every body with the "same" crater in Odyssey also has the "same" crater in Horizons...
Does it matter ? No, really ? Maybe it was there before, maybe not. The fact you found one so fast indicate how common it is, especially considering it could have been on the "night" side of the planet, and you missed it.
Perhaps it was better hidden.

I don't care ? It's not even the debate.

It's a problem for some people. That crater is very visible, very frequent and quite frankly, very annoying. It's an issue. Let the dev decide whether or not they fix it.
 
Does it matter ? No, really ? Maybe it was there before, maybe not. The fact you found one so fast indicate how common it is, especially considering it could have been on the "night" side of the planet, and you missed it.
Perhaps it was better hidden.

I don't care ? It's not even the debate.

It's a problem for some people. That crater is very visible, very frequent and quite frankly, very annoying. It's an issue. Let the dev decide whether or not they fix it.
But did you consider, for each or your own 'proof' to check in Horizons too?
This just happened to be the body the station I'm playing war in, orbits... I didn't even have to go looking for it!

So, it does look like the 'same' stamps might just be used in Horizons - not that it matters 🤷‍♂️

The real issue with recurring stamps in Odyssey exists, but assets on both games are used often.
 
But did you consider, for each or your own 'proof' to check in Horizons too?
This just happened to be the body the station I'm playing war in, orbits... I didn't even have to go looking for it!

So, it does look like the 'same' stamps might just be used in Horizons - not that it matters 🤷‍♂️

The real issue with recurring stamps in Odyssey exists, but assets on both games are used often.
I didn't know there was an expiration date on problem and issue.
I don't care if a problem is in horizon to. We collect issues, and ask them to be fixed. Dev decide if they fix them. Simple.

Also, no, I never noticed this crater in Horizon. It was obvious the first hour in odyssey.
 
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