Newbie Buffs

[AgentGB]

Since i keep reading that newbies are getting a rough time in Open. Why not have the Elite rank system offer them a bonus at the lower tier (Harmless) which diminishes as they increase in rank.

So just an example: (FSD cooldowns figures are just examples)

Combat		Trading		Exploring
Harmless	8 sec FSD cooldown	Penniless	8 sec FSD cooldown	Aimless	8 sec
Mostly Harmless	9 sec FSD cooldown	Mostly Penniless	9 sec FSD cooldown	Mostly Aimless	9 sec
Novice	10 sec FSD cooldown	Peddler	10 sec FSD cooldown	Scout	10 sec
Competent	11 sec FSD cooldown	Dealer	11 sec FSD cooldown	Surveyor	11 sec
Expert	12 sec FSD cooldown	Merchant	12 sec FSD cooldown	Trailblazer	12 sec
Master	13 sec FSD cooldown	Broker	13 sec FSD cooldown	Pathfinder	13 sec
Dangerous	14 sec FSD cooldown	Entrepreneur	14 sec FSD cooldown	Ranger	14 sec
Deadly	15 sec FSD cooldown	Tycoon	15 sec FSD cooldown	Pioneer	15 sec

Basically whatever the highest rank you are in one of the three (Combat/Trading/Exploring) will dictate your FSD cooldown, This means a player that reaches elite in anyone of the three would have any newbie buffs removed. If you've reached the rank of Elite in anyone of the three like trading, it's probably presumed you know how to escape using your FSD.

Players in any of the lower tier ranks will then have a gentle progression learning curve, it could also dissuade commanders from attacking new players if they know that they are more likely to escape. It cannot also be exploited, even by alt accounts. Since you will have to climb the rank ladder one way or another in any of the three, so its kinda fool proof. E.g its probably presumed by the time you've made it to merchant, you've probably made 5 million & have a capable ship & enough knowledge on what you are doing, so a 12 second cooldown on drives would reflect the training wheels slowly coming off.

This way the newbie are getting a fair crack of the whip & the veteran players don't feel like they need to rest on their laurels while sticking up for new players as an reason to keep the logging timer short & instead increase it or do away with it.

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Alternative idea to mine suggested in this thread on Page 2 (Its worthy of its own thread, but just so it isn't lost, i've moved it here to the OP)
TLDR: Basically FSD cooldown should depend on Ship size, e.g small / medium / large class ships. Thus making smaller/medium ships more viable for longer instead of rushing to large ships like the Big3.
Curosity of @Voracity_T & @Sylow brain storming

How about a more sensible choice.

A steeper increase to module reboots than the current system, but applied in the terms of the games progression, which is of course, the vessels.

So. A small ship? 30 second cooldown. A medium? 45 seconds. A large one, one full minute.

That way the "lategame" vessels require another layer of skill to fly thus keeping in line with the main progression the game provides.

The new players then have an advantage on their opponents who are in larger ships by having the potential to escape to cruise/another system an amount faster than thier attacker.
Of course the ships attacking will generally be considerably more powerful however this gives said new players a fighting chance to hide themselves when needing to.

Added bonus is you'll see a fair amount less "gold rush" noobs in vettes and cutters. The downside of course will mean a lot of them will combat log, though for any player wanting to engage in PvP/Piracy in the long term that is of course effectively social suicide.

Hmm. Now this is a more interesting idea than everything before. In theory. It might be a bit more refined than small/medium/large, but giving bigger ships actual disadvantages would be a novelty. Currently they just stack up advantages and any significant disadvantages are engineered away.

So yea, this would be much better than an artificial "you rank up, your ship gets worse" system. Unfortunately it won't happen due to the community. Even rather small nerfs were cried away in the past. Even when those people who had access to the testserver actually liked them, people who did not test (known console players or some who openly admitted that they never tested, but would by default hate any change which might weaken them the tiniest bit) delivered a constant stream of complaints, till FD caved.

Based on this, it would take FD not just decades but even centuries to gather up enough courage to make a change like this.

Pretty much, big ships have it wayyy to easy. Since the TLB nerf big ships have had so much freedom to behave as they like if given half a chance.

Yup, you're probably right there. Anything that risks a cmdr not being ultre invincible in their jumbo weenis extension will be screamed at as if the pilots were spoiled kindergartners.

Aways the way though. Those who test report and those with cognitive dissonance and emotional attatchement to something whinge about every detail. I've been here what three years? I think that particular aspect was clear after the first week.

Though as I said on another post, I wouldnt be at all surprised if this forum isnt just a lolcow for the office given how much petty character assasination attempts and childish name calling gets thrown around it would be a wonder if they could take it seriously at all.

Possibly. Doesn't matter. I don't really believe that FD will dare to implement disadvantages for bigger ships now. But it would be the best way to implement what this thread is all about: a system which supports beginners, who traditionally are in smaller ships.

As a positive side-effect, if done properly it might also give a bit of live to small ships in general again. They by now are nothing but stepping stones, where the active player get out of as soon as he can afford. Anything unique to make them more attractive again would be more than welcome in my eyes.

 

[Bigmaec]

8 seconds won't help a newb from being ganked by a fragboat.
Also this doesn't make much sense. The starter systems were a beginning, now to add better system security (persistent ATR) and give the sys sec a meaning. Another thing to consider is that real noobs don't lose much from getting ganked, it's the Explorers who lose the most, and they can fundamentally
help themselves by building ships that aren't easy to gank.

Also ganking noobs is lame.

 

[Voracity_T]

Also this doesn't make much sense. The starter systems were a beginning, now to add better system security (persistent ATR) and give the sys sec a meaning. Another thing to consider is that real noobs don't lose much from getting ganked, it's the Explorers who lose the most, and they can fundamentally
help themselves by building ships that aren't easy to gank.

This though.

Traders and newbies have nothing that can't be replaced in a couple of minutes. Explorers lose a hell of a lot BUT take zero logical steps to protect that investment.

Be fast? Nah. Drives are to heavy, not enough jump.
Be tanky? Nah. Armours too heavy, not enough jump
Fit shield boosters? Nah. Shield boosters are too heavy, not enough jump

Continue down that thought process and you end up in a ship that has all the durability of a head's bowels after a night of cheap lager and vindaloos.

People don't need buffs to make the game easier for them, they need to stop building ships like imbeciles and expecting nothing to happen because of it. DG should have been the wakeup call that literally shouted from the rooftops; "If you're in a flying condom, you're always at risk."

Also for the love of god stop trying to dump data in open play in densely player populated systems.

 

[Lestat]

The best buff you can give a newbie is. Lend a hand and help them. They don't need a buff if we provide them with some guidance.

 

[AgentGB]

8 seconds won't help a newb from being ganked by a fragboat.
Also this doesn't make much sense. The starter systems were a beginning, now to add better system security (persistent ATR) and give the sys sec a meaning. Another thing to consider is that real noobs don't lose much from getting ganked, it's the Explorers who lose the most, and they can fundamentally
help themselves by building ships that aren't easy to gank.

Also ganking noobs is lame.

Did say the numbers were just examples. But the case i see being made for keeping logging time short is that new players panic using their FSD to get away. My logic was if you reduce the FSD cooldown for new players they'd stand atleast a mildly better chance of getting away instead of logging out mid combat. 8 seconds is almost half the time it takes to log out. You raise a good point about the starter systems, that another training wheels effect & i guess the new players not losing much. Has for explorers, i guess they will lose the most, but they must still be fairly competent i'd imagine if they've gone on such long trips.

I'd also add, barely touched the vanilla numbers for FSD cool downs really, aside from giving a handicap to players below Elite.

 

[Bigmaec]

Did say the numbers were just examples. But the case i see being made for keeping logging time short is that new players panic using their FSD to get away. My logic was if you reduce the FSD cooldown for new players they'd stand atleast a mildly better chance of getting away instead of logging out mid combat. 8 seconds is almost half the time it takes to log out. You raise a good point about the starter systems, that another training wheels effect. Has for explorers, i guess they will lose the most, but they must still be fairly competent i'd imagine if they've gone on such long trips.

I'd also add, barely touched the vanilla numbers for FSD cool downs really, aside from it igivng a handicap to players below Elite.

The problem is that most people don't actively train to get away and then make mistakes. This is not a newb problem.
When I started PvP my heartbeat was close to 180, now after training is just above normal. You get accustomed to it, and everyone is affected different.
Some people aren't at all.
I killed a wanted player Conda some days ago, Player was deadly combat rank, had a sufficiently shielded Conda. He died because he assumedly panicked and tried to first lowwake from my Corvette which mass-locked him and then only tried to highwake when it was too late.
The game doesn't teach you the difference between NPCs and PvP.
I can totally understand people sit before the rebuy screen wondering what did just happened. Happened to me, too.
But when you get into the game, it's so much more rewarding playing with all this stuff.

 

[Lestat]

Did say the numbers were just examples. But the case i see being made for keeping logging time short is that new players panic using their FSD to get away. My logic was if you reduce the FSD cooldown for new players they'd stand atleast a mildly better chance of getting away instead of logging out mid combat. 8 seconds is almost half the time it takes to log out. You raise a good point about the starter systems, that another training wheels effect & i guess the new players not losing much. Has for explorers, i guess they will lose the most, but they must still be fairly competent i'd imagine if they've gone on such long trips.

I'd also add, barely touched the vanilla numbers for FSD cool downs really, aside from giving a handicap to players below Elite.

I rebooted one of my Accounts a few days ago. To see how the new areas were. What I did was better than any buff. I talk to them. Ask them what they wanted to do and gave them advice. We just need people who are willing to talk to new players. I also added them to my friend list so I can check upon them.

 

[AgentGB]

The problem is that most people don't actively train to get away and then make mistakes. This is not a newb problem.
When I started PvP my heartbeat was close to 180, now after training is just above normal. You get accustomed to it, and everyone is affected different.
Some people aren't at all.
I killed a wanted player Conda some days ago, Player was deadly combat rank, had a sufficiently shielded Conda. He died because he assumedly panicked and tried to first lowwake from my Corvette which mass-locked him and then only tried to highwake when it was too late.
The game doesn't teach you the difference between NPCs and PvP.
I can totally understand people sit before the rebuy screen wondering what did just happened. Happened to me, too.
But when you get into the game, it's so much more rewarding playing with all this stuff.

Ranks are quite meaningless really. Like you said, experience, conditioning, getting use to situations. But i see what you mean, if they grind up their rank in solo & then enter open, they won't be battle hardened for at least a little while.

Well, anyway, guess this wasn't so foolproof. Open is different experience to solo & i guess newer players won't rough it out in open at the beginning anyway & most likely wait until they're comfortable to enter.

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yeah okay forget it, thanks for picking through this.

 

[Sylow]

So the idea effectively is to punish people for raising their rank?

I am aware that the intention of this suggestion is something different, but in the end it boils down to this. And I don't like it.

 

[AgentGB]

So the idea effectively is to punish people for raising their rank?

I am aware that the intention of this suggestion is something different, but in the end it boils down to this. And I don't like it.

As pointed out by others my idea got some fundamental flaws, something i totally overlooked, but i don' think the "punish people for raising their rank" is the one that glared out at me initially, unless there rank was entirely obtained in solo,

For starters, its barely hasn't moved from the current FSD cooldown with the numbers i presented. Also the initial idea was to perhaps to think of it in terms of boxing. If you're Elite you're considered to be in the Heavy Weights, and if the rank actually counted for something, it would represent that you've earned your stripes, can throw a punch & take one. While Harmless, Mostly Harmless rank etc, to loosely expand on the analogy was that you're a Light Weight, can throw a punch, but duck as well with a shorter FSD cooldown, as displayed by the handicap buff. Basically a buff offered to newer players, it didn't really punish older players anymore than what they would have been use to already.

But basically as pointed out by others, the rank is nonsensical, since players who are accustomed to training on a punch dummy in Solo could at first struggle against an opponents in open who know how to dodge & weave. What others have mentioned about training & teaching new/old players is most likely the only way to bring them up to speed quickly & i guess there are already things in place for that. I've always played in open, so i kinda missed the points later made & didn't account for it in my original post or thought process.

btw i'm no PvP sage, i do listen to those more knowledgeable than me, & if these guys say it won't work, & have given solid reasons that do make complete logical sense. Not gonna be dogmatic over this. Like anything, it can sound good on paper, but when put into practice, the individual experiences/accounts determine it success, & good examples were given above.

 

[Sylow]

Also the initial idea was to perhaps to think of it in terms of boxing. If you're Elite you're considered to be in the Heavy Weights, and if the rank actually counted for something, it would represent that you've earned your stripes, can throw a punch & take one. While Harmless, Mostly Harmless rank etc, to loosely expand on the analogy was that you're a Light Weight, can throw a punch, but duck as well with a shorter FSD cooldown, as displayed by the handicap buff. Basically a buff offered to newer players, it didn't really punish older players anymore than what they would have been use to already.

In terms of your analogy, it's also not too common that two boxers go to the ring, one is pushed there against his will and has to fight bare handed, while the other one holds an axe and wears armour. For that's how things quite often boil down to in ED: one guy in a vulnerable T6 being attacked by a group of pilots in fully engineered FDLs. And yes, i get it, they need the full engineering, else the T6 with it's two small hardpoints might just be too much of a threat for them.

The whole "fair fight" idea breaks down at the very start the scenario you go for. If you want fair fights, you have to go for those groups who organize them. Any random encounter is unfair, and the one initiating it usually makes sure that all the odds are in his favour, often by also having people along.

And that all being said: yes, i know that the whole "punishment for advancement" was not on your mind. That's why i pointed it out. It's exactly what your suggestion would boil down to. Somebody starts playing. Not fighting or anything, just raising his trade rank. And by raising his trade rank, it will get harder for him to escape. Which in effect is clearly that: punishment for having a higher trade rank.

 

[RolloTreadway]

New player makes progress through the game, wonders why things are slowing down as he gets better, declares the game to be stupid, plays something else.

 

[AgentGB]

In terms of your analogy, it's also not too common that two boxers go to the ring, one is pushed there against his will and has to fight bare handed, while the other one holds an axe and wears armour. For that's how things quite often boil down to in ED: one guy in a vulnerable T6 being attacked by a group of pilots in fully engineered FDLs. And yes, i get it, they need the full engineering, else the T6 with it's two small hardpoints might just be too much of a threat for them.

The whole "fair fight" idea breaks down at the very start the scenario you go for. If you want fair fights, you have to go for those groups who organize them. Any random encounter is unfair, and the one initiating it usually makes sure that all the odds are in his favour, often by also having people along.

And that all being said: yes, i know that the whole "punishment for advancement" was not on your mind. That's why i pointed it out. It's exactly what your suggestion would boil down to. Somebody starts playing. Not fighting or anything, just raising his trade rank. And by raising his trade rank, it will get harder for him to escape. Which in effect is clearly that: punishment for having a higher trade rank.

So the idea effectively is to punish people for raising their rank?

I am aware that the intention of this suggestion is something different, but in the end it boils down to this. And I don't like it.

Look, all that aside, your concern that you'd be getting punished for leveling up your rank while probably sitting on vastly more credits, engineered ships & experience. Yet the thing that bothers you is that newbies will have one up on ya with a temporarily buff to their FSD. If someone had got to Elite in Trading, i'd imagine they've worked out how to use their FSD.

New player makes progress through the game, wonders why things are slowing down as he gets better, declares the game to be stupid, plays something else.

For a moment i thought you was talking about the engineering grind in this game, which also fits pretty well with your quote.

 

[Ethaidan]

I think this is a great idea!

I've kept my combat rank at Harmless and barely raised tbe other ranks on my alt, so I approve of a shorter FSD cool down for my Harmless G5 engineered PvP Phantom.

 

[Old Duck]

I don't like gimmicks.

 

[AgentGB]

I think this is a great idea!

I've kept my combat rank at Harmless and barely raised tbe other ranks on my alt, so I approve of a shorter FSD cool down for my Harmless G5 engineered PvP Phantom.

In your set scenario, Phantom, fully engineered with best outfitting etc, your trade rank would most likely be "entrepreneur". Basically you're getting all sarcastic over having a slight advantage of 1 second compared to Tycoon/Elite. So you haven't exploited this idea with your scenario.

I don't like gimmicks.

don't like you tbh

 

[Ethaidan]

In your set scenario, Phantom, fully engineered with best outfitting etc, your trade rank would most likely be "entrepreneur". Basically you're getting all sarcastic over having a slight advantage of 1 second compared to Tycoon/Elite. So you haven't exploited this idea with your scenario.

I'm not yet entrepreneur or pathfinder, and no I didn't actively exploit this, because it doesn't exist - this is just the stage my alt is at. I have little doubt, however, that something like this wouldn't be exploited.

 

[AgentGB]

I'm not yet entrepreneur or pathfinder, and no I didn't actively exploit this, because it doesn't exist - this is just the stage my alt is at. I have little doubt, however, that something like this wouldn't be exploited.

ofc it doesn't actively exist, that why it a idea in the suggestion forums. But from what i gathered, you seem to be implying you 'could' exploit it if it was indeed materialized into the game.

Well you must be a rank in something to own a 30 million credit Phantom G5 Engineered & i suspect have good pricey outfitting too. You stated your combat rank was harmless, so if you didn't make 30 million in credits thru combat bonds, you'd have to had made it via trading or exploring. Attempting to exploit my idea would mean actively trying to find ways not to play the game & avoid leveling up in order to maintain the buff, & then what can you actually do with this buff that offers such a significant advantage other then escaping quicker that you'd hypothetically start organizing your alts around how you'll have a super duper Phantom with reduced FSD cooldown.

 

[Old Duck]

don't like you tbh

Neither does Trump.

 

[Sylow]

Yet the thing that bothers you is that newbies will have one up on ya with a temporarily buff to their FSD. If someone had got to Elite in Trading, i'd imagine they've worked out how to use their FSD.

[sarcasm]Thank you for telling me what troubles me.[/sarcasm]

I have no problem with using my FDS. And honestly, your suggestion makes no difference there, either. All you implement is a "higher rank means you are 'trapped' for a longer time when interdicted" mechanic. All your semantics about knowing how to use the FDS is hollow here. Cooldown time is cooldown time, player skill doesn't influcence it.

No matter how you call it, in effect the suggestion means that the higher your rank, trade or exploration rank included, the longer you are trapped there. As i already explained above, the idea of "fair play" doesn't apply to intedictions. Interdictions are very much a "victim and prey" scenario and very rarely the interdictor aims for a fair fight. (For fair and challenging fights, join the Fight Club. ) And that's why i say that it boils down to punishment for higher rank.

I mean, you clearly know that a few seconds more or less of exposure to hostile fire can make all the difference. But why should it be easier to kill somebody in a T6 just because his last haul pushed up his trade rank by one level? It just makes zero sense to me.