No Single Player offline Mode then?

[Mecha]

Yes they do or they need to supply refunds. Online only access which allows only a single concurrent connection from each account, and requires a key for authentication, is a form of DRM. No authentic key + account = no access. It is delusional to claim that a game with such a set up is DRM free. The only form of the game that would not have required this is the offline one.

Wrong. See the previous posts. It doesn't matter how many times people repeat this codswallop, it dosn't make it right.

An application using a process that submits username/password to connect to a server to access an account that is stored remotely is not Digital Rights Management.

IF that was correct, Frontier like it or not would be doing an offline version - the fact they are not signals they are confident about what is/isn't DRM.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

Do you actually have any relevant points that aren't attempts at insults and trolling?

He's not the only one who thought about mentioning the main reason people don't like DRM...

 

[XirusDaVirus]

Yes they do or they need to supply refunds. Online only access which allows only a single concurrent connection from each account, and requires a key for authentication, is a form of DRM. No authentic key + account = no access. It is delusional to claim that a game with such a set up is DRM free. The only form of the game that would not have required this is the offline one.

This is a very good point indeed and there is no denying it.

So to recap:

1) No offline mode (OUCH!)
2) No DRM Free
3) No Trust
4) No Advert FREE Money Making Micro Payment Business Model

 

[stamasd]

Actually people thought they could play the game offline, at their own pace, with no "people" like you hassling them online. With the ability to return to the game weekend after weekend to continue where they left. You know, some people have a real life, a job, a family... and no, Solo Online is not the solution for that.

Unfortunately other players will affect your galaxy while you are occupied with boring things like real life.
So you found that nice trade route on the border of Federation space and have a good reputation with the feds.
Now next weekend you get back... and suprise! The Empire is now in charge of the system, as you are a convicted criminal in the Empire you have to fight system security and bounty hunters to escape the system and finally the trade route is also history as all the other Solo players delivered thousands of tons of the precious good you planned on hauling there...
Or you go out in the galaxy to explore new worlds, get into a new region of space to cartograph it, can't play for some time and "woe, behold" hundreds of kids with no job after school decided to explore that region for you pushing the border of unexplored space some hundreds of light years out (meaning 3-4 days of playing for you to reach unexplored space again. Alas, the weekend just have 2 days).
So exploring is spoiled for the "vocal minority", trading means using trading tools to get at least a little orientation on markets, rather than relying on ever changing economics in real time, which leaves mining annd... wait a minute, if you mine an Asteroid field and find a good source and get back to it after some days, maybe it is already stripped bare by other players, so well, f...ed up mining also, which leaves: Right, fly around and shoot at NPCs or better join OpenPlay and right away kill "Onliners" as anti aggression therapy... as yopu get a free Sidewinder everytime, it would just require to learn how to inflict good damage with the standard rig...
Nice! Not exactly what I expected from Elite.

I'll try my luck with online and hope it doesn't get too much as I predicted, but whatever they deliver now, the circumstances of this desaster leave a very, very bad taste for my liking.

If people opt for refund and get denied, they might revoke the payment issued by debit card... that could lead to legal issues FD need to fight, ultimately may even cost them dearly, so the future developpment is at risk.

In the end it might have been the better decision to just hire some guys and finish the static, limited offline experience instead of whining about the lack of ressources to build two different games and that they want to build their vision.
Given the fact that they stated offline will be a feature since the start of thje Kickstarter campaign, I always thought it WAS part of their vision?!

Bad people even discuss it could be forced by the wish to finance the game through dynamic in-game advertising and companies are reluctant to pay ads, which customers can avoid by simply playing offline. Just a rumour, but it made me think.
What I'll never understand is, why companies try to "force" people to watch their ads???
Does anybody think it will help your sales to put a gun to somebodies head and make him watch your advertisement? Really? If you ask me, I would especially never buy stuff from a company that annoyed me with there offensive ads on the Internet.
How many people do actually like these offensive, aggressive marketing stuff on the web?

Thank you for posting this. I couldn't have said it better myself. I agree 100%.

 

[Jim Chapman]

(Re that interview I mentioned, in which David B noted that just as soon as the offline galaxy definition was available it would be hacked and published)

No worries. I'd be interested in reading that interview, so please post the link if / when you find it. Most of what I've seen thus far has just been quotes from the forum (even found one of mine on a website yesterday - how bizarre!).

The review has been posted: http://www.gamestar.de/spiele/elite-dangerous/artikel/das_stimmt_einfach_nicht,45128,3080494.html

The relevant text is "Zum Beispiel: Wenn wir die Galaxie lokal hosten, macht das Erforschen des Universums plötzlich keinen Sinn mehr. Listen aller bereits erforschten, erdähnlichen Planeten stünden binnen weniger Stunden im Internet" which I reckon means "For example, if the galaxy were hosted locally, exploration would not make sense – lists of all the nearby undiscovered earth-like worlds would be published within hours of release.".

 

[-c-s-]

Close to slander my friend. You only have assumption, not proof.

I can't help your connotation of dubious.

My statement, "Frontier is denying the vast majority of them for perhaps dubious reasons" is no more slander than any other post in here making statements against anyone expressing their right to a refund and being critical of David Baben's decisions to remove the core offline feature that got him across the Kickstarter goal.

 

[mbpoblet]

He's not the only one who thought about mentioning the main reason people don't like DRM...

DRM doesn't affect those who crack it, it only affects those who don't (and always negatively, at that).

 

[Deleted member 47764]

They should do the right thing and give back the money they tricked from people, what a backhand thing to do to announce this after they sucked in all the "pre-order" money they could get their hands on.

A new low.

 

[XirusDaVirus]

Actually people thought they could play the game offline, at their own pace, with no "people" like you hassling them online. With the ability to return to the game weekend after weekend to continue where they left. You know, some people have a real life, a job, a family... and no, Solo Online is not the solution for that.

Unfortunately other players will affect your galaxy while you are occupied with boring things like real life.
So you found that nice trade route on the border of Federation space and have a good reputation with the feds.
Now next weekend you get back... and suprise! The Empire is now in charge of the system, as you are a convicted criminal in the Empire you have to fight system security and bounty hunters to escape the system and finally the trade route is also history as all the other Solo players delivered thousands of tons of the precious good you planned on hauling there...
Or you go out in the galaxy to explore new worlds, get into a new region of space to cartograph it, can't play for some time and "woe, behold" hundreds of kids with no job after school decided to explore that region for you pushing the border of unexplored space some hundreds of light years out (meaning 3-4 days of playing for you to reach unexplored space again. Alas, the weekend just have 2 days).
So exploring is spoiled for the "vocal minority", trading means using trading tools to get at least a little orientation on markets, rather than relying on ever changing economics in real time, which leaves mining annd... wait a minute, if you mine an Asteroid field and find a good source and get back to it after some days, maybe it is already stripped bare by other players, so well, f...ed up mining also, which leaves: Right, fly around and shoot at NPCs or better join OpenPlay and right away kill "Onliners" as anti aggression therapy... as yopu get a free Sidewinder everytime, it would just require to learn how to inflict good damage with the standard rig...
Nice! Not exactly what I expected from Elite.

I'll try my luck with online and hope it doesn't get too much as I predicted, but whatever they deliver now, the circumstances of this desaster leave a very, very bad taste for my liking.

If people opt for refund and get denied, they might revoke the payment issued by debit card... that could lead to legal issues FD need to fight, ultimately may even cost them dearly, so the future developpment is at risk.

In the end it might have been the better decision to just hire some guys and finish the static, limited offline experience instead of whining about the lack of ressources to build two different games and that they want to build their vision.
Given the fact that they stated offline will be a feature since the start of the Kickstarter campaign, I always thought it WAS part of their vision?!

I also totally agree with this 100%

 

[Papa Smurf]

This is a very good point indeed and there is no denying it.

So to recap:

1) No offline mode - removed days/weeks before going live?!?!?! - OUCH- x2
3) No Trust
4) No Advert FREE Money Making Micro Payment Business Model

XirusDaVirus,

I hope you don't mind me editing and adding something to your well thought out post. No prier mention of off-line mode being removed and then a sneaky one liner days/weeks before release. What not do PR-101 after getting £ 1,578,316 + who knows how much more of support by your peers!

 

[Zenicetus]

They have refunded people, just not to those who have had access to what they have paid for.

Nobody has had access to what they have paid for. Even ignoring the offline version, the home page right now is advertising an open Galaxy where players can "experience the 400 billion star systems of the Milky Way galaxy."

Have any of us seen that?

No, I didn't think so. We've been given various vertical slices of the game to test, in a restricted playing area. The people asking for refunds now, have not played the game that's described in FD's current marketing. It should be no skin off FD's teeth to offer those refunds, in any sense but the purely financial.

Conversely, if they handed out refunds to everyone who had a complaint with the product, well, figure out what that means with the words "Viable" and "Not." They have to actually survive and prosper. And then that only encourages the withdrawal, a bit like picking a hole in a dam.

Sure, but that risk should be balanced against immediate damage control, to preserve enthusiasm for the launch date and keep this mess from metastasizing.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Robert. I'm not going to be bothered to find the quotes, but both David and Michael have, on several occasions, confirmed that off-line was in. Do a quick search. And this was repeatedly confirmed to new buyers/backers by FD right up until 5 days ago.

I was referring to the time when offline was not yet a feature of the game, i.e. before the FAQ answer of 11th December 2012.

 

[mbpoblet]

(Re that interview I mentioned, in which David B noted that just as soon as the offline galaxy definition was available it would be hacked and published)


The review has been posted: http://www.gamestar.de/spiele/elite-dangerous/artikel/das_stimmt_einfach_nicht,45128,3080494.html

The relevant text is "Zum Beispiel: Wenn wir die Galaxie lokal hosten, macht das Erforschen des Universums plötzlich keinen Sinn mehr. Listen aller bereits erforschten, erdähnlichen Planeten stünden binnen weniger Stunden im Internet" which I reckon means "For example, if the galaxy were hosted locally, exploration would not make sense – lists of all the nearby undiscovered earth-like worlds would be published within hours of release.".

Which doesn't make any sense given that the galaxy is procedurally generated, and you can generate an infinite number of completely different ones simply by changing the seed (except for the ~150,000 or so actual stars pulled from stellar catalogues, but even then you can easily strip any Fronter-specific overrides)...

 

[Red Joe]

God, is this thread still going...

 

[-c-s-]

So basically all you people thought you could give free copys of ED to your mates so you could tool around on your own servers eh lol

Heard of GOG.com? They have been doing extremely well selling games and content with absolutely no DRM.

 

[Pyelot]

When I saw even that the BBC website reporting on this as a story, these quotes seem quite appropriate.

There's no such thing as bad publicity

or

There is only one thing worse than being talked about and that is NOT being talked about

I think more sales will come of this 'negative' issue than people asking for refunds and saying they won't play it.

 

[mnemon]

He's not the only one who thought about mentioning the main reason people don't like DRM...

That's not the main reason, I mean if you want to pirate a game there's always enough cracks to be had ... the problem is that the more invasive ones just penalize players with legit copies(ubisoft titles come to mind ...).

 

[littleminxundr]

It's only a stupid move if they care more about their current bottom line, than they do about the company's reputation and future sales going forward.

Reputation matters in the gaming world. Without a subscription model, they need a reserve of goodwill to gen up interest in forthcoming expansions like walking around and planet landings. Everything they're doing now is jeopardizing the eventual media and public reaction to those projects. People aren't going to forget what's happening here. Regardless of the legal status of the T&C, it's just too easy for the media and other interested parties to spin this as "The Backers are getting screwed with no refunds, while anyone who didn't back the game at a higher price gets a refund."

FD could end this, right now, and get the train back on the tracks by giving refunds to those who want them. I understand the slippery slope argument, but right now the emphasis should be on damage control, to remove this thundercloud over the game's official release. Later on, they can work on improving communications with the user base to avoid this kind of thing in the future.

If they don't lighten up on the no-refunds sledgehammer, this negative perception of the game in the wider gaming community will not go away. It will roll right through December and the holiday sales period, which is exactly what they don't need, and what the community doesn't need.

Just my opinion.

Sure. Suppose they fall for the moral responsibilty argument, they lose a lot more than they do now. I'm beginning to see Lukozer's point of view. LOL

 

[ramentu]

So basically all you people thought you could give free copys of ED to your mates so you could tool around on your own servers eh lol

If private server are possible,so is offline mode : just bundle the 2...

 

[mbpoblet]

Heard of GOG.com? They have been doing extremely well selling games and content with absolutely no DRM.

Not only that, but...

“Piracy, while frustrating, can contribute to game evangelism,” he said. “It can also help you reach new territories. For example, we are huge in China now. In the old days of silver discs, it would have been impossible to break the whole country. We would have needed an office in every province but through piracy, our games are circulating and fans are now seeking us out.

“Piracy goes hand in hand with sales,” he continued. “If a game is pirated a lot it will be bought a lot. People want a connected experience, so with pirated games we still have a route in to get them to upgrade to real version. And even if someone’s version is pirated, they might evangelise and their mates will buy the real thing.”