Non-lethal option on foot...

Aashenfox

Aashenfox
Tranq dart for example, that knocks them out for 15 minutes.
Still causes alarm to be raised if the sleeping person is discovered, but results in a fine and not a bounty and of course no notoriety.
Should be a separate weapon that can be configured with lethal or non lethal darts with very short range, and it's automatically silent.
 
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[VR] Mad Mike

[VR] Mad Mike
I would love that. as it stands I have increased my non wanted kill count from ... under 5 I think (accidents) pre oddy to countless now and it really spoils how I want to play. for now I have just stopped a lot of the ground stuff

not saying it's not possible to get stuff done without hurting innocents but it is a lot harder and the game definitely is weighted hugely towards the role of mass murderer.

some form of non lethal stealth (bonus points for body hiding) would be great.
 

metatheurgist

metatheurgist
PEGI says no.

[VR] Mad Mike said:
I would love that. as it stands I have increased my non wanted kill count from ... under 5 I think (accidents) pre oddy to countless now and it really spoils how I want to play. for now I have just stopped a lot of the ground stuff

not saying it's not possible to get stuff done without hurting innocents but it is a lot harder and the game definitely is weighted hugely towards the role of mass murderer.
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nomurderhobo.jpg

Don't blame the game for you being a murderhobo. It's not harder at all.
 

metatheurgist

metatheurgist
It's not harder at all. The only thing that is harder if you go completely whitehat and don't steal. There is nothing I can't get easily without murder.
 

Maidor

Maidor
I just think it's very counter intuitive that this option exists but doesn't

The Shock gun should ''knock out'' the enemy, but it straight up kills the shieldless NPC
and you get a bounty even if there is not a single soul to hear it...

So the mechanic is there, it just isn't
Not gaining a fine for shock kills, or putting the enemies on a sleep timer after that would solve the issue.
 

Dillon Fallon

Dillon Fallon
St0rmFury said:
Something about being able to kill a surrendering or incapacitated NPC. It's why everyone in settlements are armed and will fight to the death, even the lowly janitor.
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It's this that makes it a headache for the devs. Yes you could make it so NPCs can be incapacitated for 15 minutes, but you'd also have to make it so they could survive a frag grenade being dropped on their head or a salvo of missiles from the ship hitting them during that period.

Cue complaints about realism.
 

[VR] Mad Mike

[VR] Mad Mike
Dillon Fallon said:
It's this that makes it a headache for the devs. Yes you could make it so NPCs can be incapacitated for 15 minutes, but you'd also have to make it so they could survive a frag grenade being dropped on their head or a salvo of missiles from the ship hitting them during that period.

Cue complaints about realism.
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if this is the case then the answer would be to have to lock them in a locker or something, which would then essentially take them out of the equation for a time. it isnt perfect, but personally i think it would be better than what we have now which is kill, leg it , or die if spotted doing something a little naughty.

i just checked my inara stats... it seems i have only murdered one person... which is less than i thought.

most of my messing about must have been in beta or perhaps the tutorial missions. (but beta i think), but then like i said, i decided to just stop attempting that content as i do not want to be forced into shooting innocents really.... this may change going forward however
 

Jmanis

Jmanis
MDHansen said:
sigh... nvm me

actually, why is a non-lethal takedown worse than a murderspree in the eyes of the pegi? is the NRA behind this?! :unsure:
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Yep. By all accounts it's the killing of someone "hors de combat" or thereabouts that is a problem.

Either way... alt fire on the discharge weapon is your non-lethal takedown... there's even a special icon and they can be roused if found by an enemy.

It's just that counts functionally as murder because of the PEGI stuff. Adding more non- lethal weapons just dilutes the purpose of that device which is the games 'nonlethal' method, even if C&P doesn't see it that way.

Really, the fix to this is to change the crime of "Murder" to "Critically Injury" and have it penalise the same as murder currently does... that way:
  • Since we get "critically injured" when our health gets to zero... the logic becomes consistent for NPCs and PCs.
  • By combining actions causing"serious risk of death" and "unconsciousness" into the same bundle, the crime fits for both gunning someone down and using the overload discharge
  • the requirements for nonviolent missions aren't circumvented.
  • mechanically in the game, you can't "shoot" anyone you down through gunfire or discharge anyway as it currently stands, they become static and non interactive, so the current representation doesn't change at all

Speaking directly to the suggestion in the OP... sounds horribly overpowered compared to the overload discharge to me.
 
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metatheurgist

metatheurgist
[VR] Mad Mike said:
most of my messing about must have been in beta or perhaps the tutorial missions. (but beta i think), but then like i said, i decided to just stop attempting that content as i do not want to be forced into shooting innocents really.... this may change going forward however
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What do you think requires murder to be done?
 

[VR] Mad Mike

[VR] Mad Mike
metatheurgist said:
What do you think requires murder to be done?
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not sure i follow.
i assume killing someone who isnt wanted.......... if you are suggesting that if i am caught nicking something and they open fire on me, and i then kill them, the game does not count that as murder because "they shot 1st" that is great and all, but it is still not how i ideally want to play it.

but equally my character does not mind a 5 finger discount and if he could would have no qualms in a pinch knocking them out before they raised an alarm and dumping the body in a wheelie bin for 10 mins.
 
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Dillon Fallon

Dillon Fallon
[VR] Mad Mike said:
if this is the case then the answer would be to have to lock them in a locker or something, which would then essentially take them out of the equation for a time. it isnt perfect, but personally i think it would be better than what we have now which is kill, leg it , or die if spotted doing something a little naughty.

i just checked my inara stats... it seems i have only murdered one person... which is less than i thought.

most of my messing about must have been in beta or perhaps the tutorial missions. (but beta i think), but then like i said, i decided to just stop attempting that content as i do not want to be forced into shooting innocents really.... this may change going forward however
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2372 since late September for me. Although only 5 omnipol, so I need to up my game there. :LOL:

I did have a look at games with similar mechanics though (i.e. with the choice to incapacitate or kill opponents) and up come games like the Thief series, Cyberpunk etc, even games like Skyrim to a certain extent (paralysis enchantments). All rated 18. Looking at it from another direction I wonder if someone has decided on a compromise too far for a modern day realistic shooting game.

This wouldn't be a discussion if they'd bitten the bullet and settled with an 18+ rating (I guarantee there was a discussion in a meeting about it and some poor dev who argued for it is pulling their hair out over these threads). It's not like this game has a particularly young playerbase. We'd then be zapping people unconscious with the energy link and potentially could even have seen "bring them in alive" missions.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing though.

As is, I rather think they've boxed themselves into a corner.
 

Maidor

Maidor
Jmanis said:
Yep. By all accounts it's the killing of someone "hors de combat" or thereabouts that is a problem.

Either way... alt fire on the discharge weapon is your non-lethal takedown... there's even a special icon and they can be roused if found by an enemy.

It's just that counts functionally as murder because of the PEGI stuff. Adding more non- lethal weapons just dilutes the purpose of that device which is the games 'nonlethal' method, even if C&P doesn't see it that way.

Really, the fix to this is to change the crime of "Murder" to "Critically Injury" and have it penalise the same as murder currently does... that way:
  • Since we get "critically injured" when our health gets to zero... the logic becomes consistent for NPCs and PCs.
  • By combining actions causing"serious risk of death" and "unconsciousness" into the same bundle, the crime fits for both gunning someone down and using the overload discharge
  • the requirements for nonviolent missions aren't circumvented.
  • mechanically in the game, you can't "shoot" anyone you down through gunfire or discharge anyway as it currently stands, they become static and non interactive, so the current representation doesn't change at all

Speaking directly to the suggestion in the OP... sounds horribly overpowered compared to the overload discharge to me.
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It still does not adress the problem. Stealth
I don't think OP suggestion is about non-lethal alternative for the roleplay. It is about functionality.

Effectivly there is no diffrence in consequence from killing someone in any condition. Even zapping.
NPCs instantly know you did it. If they find the body the then become sure to hunt you, and specifically you. There is no suspession or alert state before the bounty.
When the NPC dies the Murder is instantly related to you and the bounty is issued. If an NPC scans you, they some how know you killed a guy in an empity room.

Not only silly, it limits the aproach to stealth and roleplay.

Stealth in the future [currently] is all about sneaking around in places without a single camera, suddenly get insta-sentenced when you zap a dude alone in a windowless vacum cube.

The guard knows of your guilt by scanning your memories, The janitor knows your sins as soon as he sees the spirit of his friend snitching on you.

There were many ways to design around the limitations, stealth/crime was just done on a very straight translation from ship's Law system.
Where ships immediatly report crimes system wide. Where stealth is not present unless you press a button for it, but scan and violence always trigger bounty.

As NPCs react to finding a body, or seeing you commit a crime.
They should not react to something they didn't see. Because they are not ships. And there is no stealth button. Only line of sight, violence and scans.

I would just change the Zap gun to not issue any fine or bounty unless another NPC direcly spots this action.
This is as simple change to program.

Should trigger an alert state, with reinforced security and lockdown. Investigation by the NPC's and such. But this is too much compared to current AI behaviour
 
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Jmanis

Jmanis
Maidor said:
It still does not adress the problem. Stealth
I don't think OP suggestion is about non-lethal alternative for the roleplay. It is about functionality.

Effectivly there is no diffrence in consequence from killing someone in any condition. Even zapping.
NPCs instantly know you did it. If they find the body the then become sure to hunt you, and specifically you. There is no suspession or alert state before the bounty.
When the NPC dies the Murder is instantly related to you and the bounty is issued. If an NPC scans you, they some how know you killed a guy in an empity room.

Not only silly, it limits the aproach to stealth and roleplay.

Stealth in the future [currently] is all about sneaking around in places without a single camera, suddenly get insta-sentenced when you zap a dude alone in a windowless vacum cube.

The guard knows of your guilt by scanning your memories, The janitor knows your sins as soon as he sees the spirit of his friend snitching on you.

There were many ways to design around the limitations, stealth/crime was just done on a very straight translation from ship's Law system.
Where ships immediatly report crimes system wide. Where stealth is not present unless you press a button for it, but scan and violence always trigger bounty.

As NPCs react to finding a body, or seeing you commit a crime.
They should not react to something they didn't see. Because they are not ships. And there is no stealth button. Only line of sight, violence and scans.

I would just change the Zap gun to not issue any fine or bounty unless another NPC direcly spots this action.
This is as simple change to program.

Should trigger an alert state, with reinforced security and lockdown. Investigation by the NPC's and such. But this is too much compared to current AI behaviour
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Like i said, it's a change to the crime mechanics, not a request for a new non- lethal weapon. That weapon already exists.

I disagree-ish with the suggestion discharge kills shouldn't cause bounties, but that's a whole other discussion not relevant here.

Brief Counterpoint: i routinely clear small buildings up to whole bases:
  • with base alarms active
  • using "overt" weapons
  • without triggering an alarm
  • without silencing engineering

That shouldn't get treated any differently to using a discharge... and just like that, the on-foot C&P system is completely ineffective.
 
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Screemonster

Screemonster
Aashenfox said:
Still causes alarm to be raised if the sleeping person is discovered, but results in a fine and not a bounty and of course no notoriety.
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Man, I'd love it if discovering a body caused the alarms to be raised, rather than the person just waving their gun around for a while then going back to what they were doing.
I'd honestly be fine with it being a bounty (it's still assault!) without the notoriety.

That said, this all goes with all my other various complaints about the C&P system in general (the all-seeing-eye that assigns you bounties even when there are no witnesses being a big one, coupled with "minor bounties don't expire any more like they used to")
 

Jmanis

Jmanis
Screemonster said:
Man, I'd love it if discovering a body caused the alarms to be raised, rather than the person just waving their gun around for a while then going back to what they were doing.
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It does though?

On the odd occasion i observe and don't act when i see someone discover a corpse, they'll quickly scout the immediate area, take a knee at which point a red and yellow "wifi" like signal appears above them while they call it in... leave it long enough and the alarms will kick off.

Just note, i make no guarantees that scientists/ engineers (i.e non- guards) will do this, as their reactions are different, but guards definitely do this.
 
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