General / Off-Topic Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris is Burning

[jasonbarron]

You have me confused with other posters, I made no comments regarding wealthy individuals.
As stated earlier ruins would draw as many tourists as an intact building, see Stone Henge, the Parthenon, the Colliseum, etc.

I wasn't trying to single you out, but since you responded to me I engaged your point. Here's an example of what I mean:

"What we see is a jaw dropping amount of wealth pledged without so much as a second thought to the restoration of an anachronistic folly. Over a billion for this compared to 150 million for Live Aid."

 

[Demascus]

I wasn't trying to single you out, but since you responded to me I engaged your point. Here's an example of what I mean:

"What we see is a jaw dropping amount of wealth pledged without so much as a second thought to the restoration of an anachronistic folly. Over a billion for this compared to 150 million for Live Aid."

Agreed, it's private money not public. The wealth of others and how they spend it is not up for public debate. It can be criticized but doesn't need to be a headline news talking point.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

There are limits to what a private individual can acceptably spend their money on, terrorist groups, religious extremists and nationalist propaganda for example.
For many the church is a symbol of repression and abuse which makes this distinctly uncomfortable.

 

[Patrick_68000]

What we see is a jaw dropping amount of wealth pledged without so much as a second thought to the restoration of an anachronistic folly. Over a billion for this compared to 150 million for Live Aid.
It's a slap in the face for the people of Europe and utterly at odds with the idea of France as a secular nation.
Just more grand standing by L'empereur "Je suis L'Europe" Macron.

You are right on a lot of things.

1 billion seems like the beginning because still a lot of money will come. What becomes indecent in our difficult times for many people.

France is a laic country for sure. But basically it's a country of Christian root and culture.

Macron is a crazy and megalomaniac emperor. He is omnipotent and omniscient. He WANTS that the work be done in 5 years (for the Olympic Games in Paris) while many experts say it will take 10-15 years.

 

[Winterwalker]

There are limits to what a private individual can acceptably spend their money on

Jesus might have a view on how they made that money in the first place I guess. L'Oreal might not test on animals (anymore, not sure) but it's a luxury brand of wealthy merchants nonetheless and it's easier for a camel to pass thjrough the eye of a needle ..

Still, some good news, reports are that the Notre Dame bee boxes survived the blaze ..
(I keep bees myself so it's a lucky outcome imo)

 

[Patrick_68000]

You have me confused with other posters, I made no comments regarding wealthy individuals.
As stated earlier ruins would draw as many tourists as an intact building, see Stone Henge, the Parthenon, the Colliseum, etc.

The problem here is that Notre Dame de Paris is a place of events and various manifestations.

More than a thousand per year (masses, concerts, sacraments for the dead etc...)

I saw a report last night. There are several masses per day at Notre Dame de Paris.

And hundreds of people have been there for years every morning at 8 am to see the first Mass before going to work.

Still, some good news, reports are that the Notre Dame bee boxes survived the blaze ..
(I keep bees myself so it's a lucky outcome imo)

Nice shot ! It's essential

The bees are indispensable to the pollenization of the nature.

Hope they are not caramelized after the ambient temperature.

 

[Ripskar]

The problem here is that Notre Dame de Paris is a place of events and various manifestations.

More than a thousand per year (masses, concerts, sacraments for the dead etc...)

I saw a report last night. There are several masses per day at Notre Dame de Paris.

And hundreds of people have been there for years every morning at 8 am to see the first Mass before going to work.

As mentioned previously the church falls back on its icons as it dies. The parish churches are closed and sold off to concentrate the remaining congregation in the cathedrals. This provides the illusion of relevance.
As for concerts, Paris has many venues, the Bataclan for example.

Of course they did save the most important bit; Le Coq.

 

[amigacooke {macOS}]

As mentioned previously the church falls back on its icons as it dies.

Christian population growth

 

[Ripskar]

France 2015; General population; 54% Catholic, 37% No religion. 16-29 age bracket; 23% Catholic, 64% No religion. Only 1.8% of French Catholics are active churchgoers.
The congregation is dying and won't be replaced.
In fact looking into it it would be illegal for the French Government to contribute to the reconstruction.
1905 Separation of Church & Stae

 

[Rob At Work]

Agreed, use the donated money to do some good, not replace some ancient stones and timber.

 

[amigacooke {macOS}]

In fact looking into it it would be illegal for the French Government to contribute to the reconstruction.
1905 Separation of Church & Stae

Thanks for the link, most informative. If the section below is still in force, Notre Dame is owned by the state which is therefore entirely responsible for its restoration. Isn't the state lucky that so many others are prepared to chip in to help?

The 1905 law put an end to the government funding of religious groups by France and its political subdivisions.[25] (The state had previously agreed to such funding in the Napoleonic Concordat of 1801 as compensation for the Revolution's confiscation of Church properties.)[27][28] At the same time, it declared that all religious buildings were property of the state and local governments.[25] Other articles of the law included the prohibition of affixing religious signs on public buildings, and laying down that the Republic no longer names French archbishops or bishops.[25]

 

[lysan]

I could understand the people of France being concerned with how their tax dollars are being spent, but when it comes to wealthy individuals stepping up and deciding how they want to spend their own money I fail to see the problem. Do you (and everyone else on this thread) like people telling you how to spend your money?

On a more practical front: restoring a national treasure has multiple benefits to its country of origin, while donating vast sums of money to poor people has almost none.

ND is a beacon of the western civilization, if it hasn't been for that, no internet, no infrastructure nothing but dark ages. Was there a dark side too? sure there was, horrible acts has been committed in the name of God, however that is how religion works, until the human race reach a point where they wake up and understand how it all works you will see manipulation of the masses.

We live in very interesting times, huge parts of the "masses" are waking up from their slumbering, and still some are not fully awake, it will take some time, however if you like freedom, with all its flaws, you will know we are in the right direction.

Burning of christian symbols is an attack on the western belief system, it's like removing statues of dead people we suddenly dont like, because reasons. We should not destroy our history, we should remember it, the good, the bad and the ugly part of it, because knowing the past we can only change the future.

PS: A guy was arrested in the US walking into a church with gasoline and lighter gas, he was stopped by the guards and arrested by the police.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/18/man...s-inside-new-yorks-st-patricks-cathedral.html

 

[Ripskar]

Thanks for the link, most informative. If the section below is still in force, Notre Dame is owned by the state which is therefore entirely responsible for its restoration. Isn't the state lucky that so many others are prepared to chip in to help?

"The Republic does not recognize, pay, or subsidize any religious sect. Accordingly, from 1 January following the enactment of this law, there will be removed from state budgets, departments and municipalities, all expenses related to the exercise of religion.

The state has ownership of the site but cannot pay for or subsidize the work.
So question becomes would the donations made by various groups become toxic for those groups interests?
The French aren't exactly known for restraint when it comes to expressing distaste.

 

[amigacooke {macOS}]

The state has ownership of the site but cannot pay for or subsidize the work.

Surely the state has a responsibility to upkeep all the buildings it owns, regardless of the function?

 

[Ripskar]

There is a specific section banning the Republic from funding building work.

 

[amigacooke {macOS}]

I wasn't trying to single you out, but since you responded to me I engaged your point. Here's an example of what I mean:

"What we see is a jaw dropping amount of wealth pledged without so much as a second thought to the restoration of an anachronistic folly. Over a billion for this compared to 150 million for Live Aid."

I trust the same amount of outrage was poured onto the 7 clubs who have spent more than €1bn on transfers since 2010?

 

[amigacooke {macOS}]

There is a specific section banning the Republic from funding building work.

The French Republic builds nothing?

 

[Ripskar]

There's always arguments about transfer fees.

The legislation relates specifically to religious structures and edifices.

The rebuilding work can only be done via 'private donations'. It should make the parties audit reports interesting.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

LVMH
L'Oreal
Total

 

[Winterwalker]

The French Republic builds nothing?

Not in terms of preserving the Notre Dame cathedral, the French state is self-declared as secular.
This is why Notre Dame's stonework is known to have been in a really bad way, prior to the fire.