News NPC AI update

[manos70131]

Right now, the game design seems to be: Have fun avoiding destruction.

People have fun accomplishing things. That might mean blowing up an enemy ship, or delivering cargo. It might mean mining, or discovering a new planet. It doesn't mean avoiding getting destroyed. (OK - for MOST people.)

Not getting destroyed isn't what makes this game fun. Doing things, being able to achieve something, that's what's fun.

I agree with this. The point isn't stopping/avoiding interdictions. They were happening before and we didn't mind because we could handle them. The point is to be able to play even if you are interdicted. This is what the game had and lost. Avoiding fights is not what I (and I hope most players) want. I don't want every fight to be an accomplishment. There are other game accomplishments to seek. I understand the top level players that want some additional challenge. They should admit however that the players that are top level today have probably had a lot of practice with the old AI. It did make them better players (and probably rich enough for credits to have no meaning for them now). And today that the old AI was no challenge for them it's perfectly understandable to seek new challenges. The new AI appears to be able to give them that. And it's good that the developers managed to create an AI that can become challenging to even experienced players. For the players that are not top level however and continue to struggle for a living in ED's galaxy, making every fight difficult is a show stopper. Crash courses of how to play like a pro are always good to have but learnig to manage on your own feels better.

As I said before the new AI needs new calibration. I believe that it is already adjustable, meaning that lower level players are supposed to have easier opponents. AI difficulty adjustment must be already implemented. The only thing to do now is rebalance it. It should be doable but it may need some time. ED is a game worth of our patience. In the meanwhile I think that all of us that feel overwhelmed by the new situation, we should avoid the pain of getting destoyed by too poweful opponents and wait for a new patch.

 

[Gibbon]

At least there's some variation on the drive to work. Before you were just driving in an endless loop. And you can still go where no one boldly goes. That hasn't changed.

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Elite Dangerous is a modern game that has to stand on its own legs. With each patch those legs gets stronger. I for one doesn't care about what ELITE was about. And frankly it was a very long time ago. I think ED has improved vastly since 2.1. We just need to adapt a little.

Actually we don't need to adapt at all. Frontier promised us a game where you can do what you want, go where you want, whenever you want. With the latest update we don't go anywhere because the npc's kill you over and over and over and over again. Everything was fine before 2.1, while i agree the npc's were dumb, only had to ramp that up a little bit, not go from 1 to 100 in one giant leap. Now it's turned into the worst nightmare of a game imaginable with broken content, a stupid engineer system that is dysfunctional (nowhere to store items) and npc's so hard most normal players don't have the time or inclination to play the game anymore due to the insane difficulty levels. And don't even start me on new players and their chances of survival.

 

[Captain N]

Huh!.. Elite was originally a space trading game not mortal combat is space.

Despite what people may have called it from what I remember (and it's not that long since the last time I played it) there's quite a bit of fighting in the original Elite.

I'd argue in many ways it was more unforgiving than ED since if you were attacked, it happened in normal space and there was no easy way to "escape the interdiction" unless you had saved enough fuel for a hyperspace jump.

You were stuck with those enemies until you had killed every single one.

I always kind of stand at disbelief when people talk about the learning curve in combat (particularly before the AI buff) - I for one understood from day one how to play the game and how to deal with the NPC opponents. Whatever learning I did since then was small refinements to how I utilised pips or FAOFF. There was no challenge to me until the current patch, where the difficulty feels spot on.

I'm not a top pilot, even remotely. I'm casual to the point you could say I barely play the game at all.

 

[Insomnia]

Actually we don't need to adapt at all. Frontier promised us a game where you can do what you want, go where you want, whenever you want. With the latest update we don't go anywhere because the npc's kill you over and over and over and over again. Everything was fine before 2.1, while i agree the npc's were dumb, only had to ramp that up a little bit, not go from 1 to 100 in one giant leap. Now it's turned into the worst nightmare of a game imaginable with broken content, a stupid engineer system that is dysfunctional (nowhere to store items) and npc's so hard most normal players don't have the time or inclination to play the game anymore due to the insane difficulty levels. And don't even start me on new players and their chances of survival.

AFAIK I couldn't build me a homebase before 2.1 and I can't do it after 2.1 either. The whole do-what-you-want-and-be-who-you-want-deal isn't really true anywhere except for those basic professions that already exists.
I'm not a top pilot. I play a few hours every week max.
I'm fighting in my Vulture, and I can stay in a HighRES for about 30 mins now before I must restock and repair. Pre 2.1 I could linger there forever without the slightest change to my hull or SCB ammo. The AI pre 2.1 was broken. I agree that the new AI needs some balacing, especially with lower ranked NPCs. But the rest should remain untouched.

Interdiction mechanics doesn't have anything to do with AI.

 

[derpbuddyuk]

I stopped playing for a while due to the AI being well Op this is killing the game for newer players. The AI now is way too aggressive in my opinion its gone to the extreme.

 

[oranginam]

I stopped playing for a while due to the AI being well Op this is killing the game for newer players. The AI now is way too aggressive in my opinion its gone to the extreme.

I'll think same...
And Nothing in the new update for the NPC IA....
Frontier mock us and our remark

 

[Mr T]

Interdiction mechanics doesn't have anything to do with AI.

Insomnia makes a good point. It's not really the AI themselves that people are having issues with (just stay with me here). Before the 2.1 update we never encountered AI that were as highly ranked and now we are. If you don't believe me, target the AI and check out their combat rank next time it happens. There is definitely some kind of misalignment that is causing these highly ranked AI to come out and interdict lower ranked people more often now. My personal suspicion is it's a (likely complex) bug that needs to be sorted out and will take some time to do so.

 

[sqzbox1]

Didn't read the whole 36 pages so sorry if this is already mentioned.

There already is a level switch - kinda. For a long time I thought that where the mission description indicates level, such as Elite or Dangerous, or whatever, indicated the level I needed to be at. But it isn't - it is an indicator of the level of NPC that is going to be going up against you. So if you select missions suitable for what you consider your capability to be, then that should control the level of NPC you find yourself up against. Am I wrong?

 

[manos70131]

Didn't read the whole 36 pages so sorry if this is already mentioned.

There already is a level switch - kinda. For a long time I thought that where the mission description indicates level, such as Elite or Dangerous, or whatever, indicated the level I needed to be at. But it isn't - it is an indicator of the level of NPC that is going to be going up against you. So if you select missions suitable for what you consider your capability to be, then that should control the level of NPC you find yourself up against. Am I wrong?

From what I have seen so far, this is not what's happening. Most of the times I get interdicted, I don't have any pending mission. There might be a connection with the completed missions however. I have a favorite station. I'm friendly with a small faction and they give me juicy assignments (I'm neutral with the rest of the factions in the system). Whenever I return to the space station of that faction after completing one of their missions, I'm in trouble. Either one and lately two ships with the same rank as I am (always wanted and well equiped) interdict me a couple of LS away from the station. Always. I have tried fighting these fights but the opponents are too strong for me so I flee every time. When I jump back to the system, the ships are gone so I can dock eventually. So the active mission does not seem to affect the NPCs that pull you over. If there is a connection with missions, it must be with missions you have already completed.

 

[Gibbon]

Interdiction mechanics doesn't have anything to do with AI.

Really? You need to clarify the difference between AI and NPC. The AI is the mechanics that the NPC ships use to behave as they fly around and do their thing, and gives them their behaviour. Therefore if the AI, the behavioural programming that tells an NPC pilot what to do says, interdict more often, then that's what it will do. The two are very much related.

Interdictions and the levels of NPC's has been much higher since 2.1, and the fact they attack for no reason, even when ships fly empty is something that needs looking into because it's ridiculous that empty freighters are just being blown out of the sky by elite level NPC's governed by the upgraded new AI behaviour which is for me at least, excessive and i'm not alone with this thought.

 

[Hexcaliber]

Actually we don't need to adapt at all. Frontier promised us a game where you can do what you want, go where you want, whenever you want. With the latest update we don't go anywhere because the npc's kill you over and over and over and over again. Everything was fine before 2.1, while i agree the npc's were dumb, only had to ramp that up a little bit, not go from 1 to 100 in one giant leap. Now it's turned into the worst nightmare of a game imaginable with broken content, a stupid engineer system that is dysfunctional (nowhere to store items) and npc's so hard most normal players don't have the time or inclination to play the game anymore due to the insane difficulty levels. And don't even start me on new players and their chances of survival.

In spite of all the hyperbole you can still do what you want in game. If you do not want to adapt to changes, whatever they may be, then that’s your fault, and has nothing to do with frontier. ED has a ten year update plan, it will change continually through that time requiring players to adapt frequently.

Further, the game was not fine before 2.1, it was far from fine, it was a boring endless treadmill with no risk to players choosing to play in solo or group; that players now complain there is too much grind is laughable. The absence of any real threat also skewed the results in power play and community goals; having players in solo/group compete without risk was being abused wholesale. While there is still disparity in difficulty between flying in open facing other players, and not, at least now the playing field has levelled out some and people flying in solo/group no longer do so with impunity.

 

[Insomnia]

Really? You need to clarify the difference between AI and NPC. The AI is the mechanics that the NPC ships use to behave as they fly around and do their thing, and gives them their behaviour. Therefore if the AI, the behavioural programming that tells an NPC pilot what to do says, interdict more often, then that's what it will do. The two are very much related.

Um.. I said interdictions and AI... Not NPCs and AI. [where is it]
I'm not a game programmer, but I have done a bit of programming here and there, and I'm guessing the interdiction mechanics are govern by a string of events (like entering a sytem, a planet surface or an asteroid field) that triggers the creation of a new NPC based on some global vars.
It's this mechanic that needs balancing, or a complete overhaul.

 

[Gibbon]

@Insomnia
Interdictions certainly need an overhaul, can't argue that point at all, but some of the other stuff i mentioned is part of the problem also.

@Hexcaliber
How can the fault be mine regarding adapting to changes when it's Frontier making the changes, which a large part of the players who can be bothered to sign up to the forum not like? It's clear that the changes forced upon us as so called updates will enhance the game, some of the changes won't. Doesn't mean we all have to like them. There are plenty of us who don't play open for a reason, we'd like to do what we want to do without interference from other players as solo mode was meant to be, but which got canned just before release. The difficulty of doing anything in game in it's current state is the issue, that's not a case of adapting but simply a case of the developers not getting it right.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

Maybe the ranking system is at fault.

This appears to be the way the ranking works: Each kill increases your rank (with kills of higher skilled NPCs/PCs counting more than lower skilled.) There is no balance... you will always go up no matter what, and the game will ever get more difficult. Eventually, players will never be able to play because the inevitable ranking increase means you will always face NPCs that challenge your rating level (but not your skill.)

Perhaps the ranking system needs changing! Perhaps like this

For every encounter that you lose, or run away from damaged, your combat ranking drops. In this way, if the NPC skill is too much for you, you eventually reach a point where you level out... meaning you have a share of running away, but still the ability to face and deal with most NPCs you meet... being your ranking level.

This, in a sense, like some exam systems. You get harder and harder questions, until you start to fail some, then the question difficulty is reduced until your competency level is properly determined. The constant increase in AI difficulty because your rating never reduces is the cause of most people's problems with the AI.

 

[Cmdr Aeries Hunter]

I have been playing Elite Since 1.0 and became a lifetime supporter because the game had massive potential. It was challenging, but not too challenging. People that wanted that extra oomph and danger went into open and PvP against each other. Everyone had something to do and everyone was having fun doing their own thing. Obviously with updates things changed with the odd hiccup and some bugs, but overall it was a pleasant place for a wide community of players. Since 2.1 dropped the "AI is too easy" brigade has got what they wanted, at the severe cost of every other player that didn't find the "AI too easy". Now we are in a situation where Frontier are going to alienate one massive group over another. The AI should not have been touched, with the exception of fixing those silly bugs and maybe just the Elite ship skills. Instead we have Skynet roaming the galaxy killing half the players making the entire game a sour experience for many that loved the game before.

I noticed some massive changes in 2.1 beta 6 right at the end about a day before launch that the NPC's became much more powerful. I could still fight them and win but only just and only in a highly modified cutter. When 2.1 dropped the first week I managed to fight some npc's and survive the encounter. However the past week after the NPC's where supposed to have been toned down, I am finding that I cannot win any encounter at all. Not one. If I don't run I die. And each death costs 30 million credits. If I fought instead of running I would be totally broke within a month. Almost 2 years of work could be wiped out in 1 month by these new NPC's. That is not what games are supposed to be about. They are meant to be fun for everyone, not just a select group. Since I have been playing for that time, my skills have increased but has reached its plateau. This is about as good as I am ever going to get. There is no "get good" for me.

Please Frontier go back to the old AI but with the bug fixes in place. Those that want a harder experience can go PVP each other as that was what was intended in the first place. No AI will ever be good enough for those guys so why should players that are not so good have to suffer or stop playing the game because a a few people found it too easy. Or why not introduce difficulty settings. Please Frontier fix this.

 

[Adiri]

I have been playing Elite Since 1.0 and became a lifetime supporter because the game had massive potential. It was challenging, but not too challenging. People that wanted that extra oomph and danger went into open and PvP against each other. Everyone had something to do and everyone was having fun doing their own thing. Obviously with updates things changed with the odd hiccup and some bugs, but overall it was a pleasant place for a wide community of players. Since 2.1 dropped the "AI is too easy" brigade has got what they wanted, at the severe cost of every other player that didn't find the "AI too easy". Now we are in a situation where Frontier are going to alienate one massive group over another. The AI should not have been touched, with the exception of fixing those silly bugs and maybe just the Elite ship skills. Instead we have Skynet roaming the galaxy killing half the players making the entire game a sour experience for many that loved the game before.

I noticed some massive changes in 2.1 beta 6 right at the end about a day before launch that the NPC's became much more powerful. I could still fight them and win but only just and only in a highly modified cutter. When 2.1 dropped the first week I managed to fight some npc's and survive the encounter. However the past week after the NPC's where supposed to have been toned down, I am finding that I cannot win any encounter at all. Not one. If I don't run I die. And each death costs 30 million credits. If I fought instead of running I would be totally broke within a month. Almost 2 years of work could be wiped out in 1 month by these new NPC's. That is not what games are supposed to be about. They are meant to be fun for everyone, not just a select group. Since I have been playing for that time, my skills have increased but has reached its plateau. This is about as good as I am ever going to get. There is no "get good" for me.

Please Frontier go back to the old AI but with the bug fixes in place. Those that want a harder experience can go PVP each other as that was what was intended in the first place. No AI will ever be good enough for those guys so why should players that are not so good have to suffer or stop playing the game because a a few people found it too easy. Or why not introduce difficulty settings. Please Frontier fix this.

Thank you for this post... It's exactly what I feel and think!

 

[derpbuddyuk]

Dear frontier thank you for now ruining elite and almost making it un playable.
The recent buff to the NPC'S is way too op why go from skill level 1 to 100 just to please a small amount of players that found elite AI too easy.
If this is the case is this not what PvP was for these more hardcore players to enjoy.
Why do all us not so hardcore players have to suffer this new updated and near impossible to kill SKYNET controlled force of NPC'S that are waging a war on us all.

The game is supposed to be enjoyable however after the recent buff it just gets annoying.
Elite was supposed to be a game you could decide what you wanted to do for example trade or bounty hunt.
However now you have dictated what people can do now as these buffed NPC'S it's pointless bounty hunting as you cannot kill them due to them being well OP.
The last 2.1 has been a complete nightmare and i wish i had never downloaded it i preferred the AI at that level.
You only die time after time in battle now with NPC'S after this last update.
And it gets very expensive so fighting now is something that is not worth doing due to high probability of loosing even more credits to a NPC that seems to be controlled by SKYNET.

I was under the impression that the last DLC was to enhance my game not ruin it.
Apparently it was to fix bugs not give the NPC'S the control of Skynet.
For a new player this would put them off this great game i played the original back in the day and loved this when it first came out.
However now i'm starting to not bother playing it due to nerf after nerf in the wrong direction.
The game is slowly getting ruined and the AI is the main course of peoples annoyance too aggressive too hard to kill now why fight them.

The AI needs addressing if you want to encourage new players to stick with this game if not they will leave no mans sky comes out soon and as much as i hate to say it the younger players will flock to that instead of this great game.
Do i need to change my CMDR name to Kyle REECE to stand a chance of fighting now against SKYNET.
let's get Elite dangerous back on track and stop making this game a trainwreck.
I appreciate the work of the team at frontier but you really are going in the wrong direction.

 

[cooly_hat]

I have been playing Elite Since 1.0 and became a lifetime supporter because the game had massive potential. It was challenging, but not too challenging. People that wanted that extra oomph and danger went into open and PvP against each other. Everyone had something to do and everyone was having fun doing their own thing. Obviously with updates things changed with the odd hiccup and some bugs, but overall it was a pleasant place for a wide community of players. Since 2.1 dropped the "AI is too easy" brigade has got what they wanted, at the severe cost of every other player that didn't find the "AI too easy". Now we are in a situation where Frontier are going to alienate one massive group over another. The AI should not have been touched, with the exception of fixing those silly bugs and maybe just the Elite ship skills. Instead we have Skynet roaming the galaxy killing half the players making the entire game a sour experience for many that loved the game before.

I noticed some massive changes in 2.1 beta 6 right at the end about a day before launch that the NPC's became much more powerful. I could still fight them and win but only just and only in a highly modified cutter. When 2.1 dropped the first week I managed to fight some npc's and survive the encounter. However the past week after the NPC's where supposed to have been toned down, I am finding that I cannot win any encounter at all. Not one. If I don't run I die. And each death costs 30 million credits. If I fought instead of running I would be totally broke within a month. Almost 2 years of work could be wiped out in 1 month by these new NPC's. That is not what games are supposed to be about. They are meant to be fun for everyone, not just a select group. Since I have been playing for that time, my skills have increased but has reached its plateau. This is about as good as I am ever going to get. There is no "get good" for me.

Please Frontier go back to the old AI but with the bug fixes in place. Those that want a harder experience can go PVP each other as that was what was intended in the first place. No AI will ever be good enough for those guys so why should players that are not so good have to suffer or stop playing the game because a a few people found it too easy. Or why not introduce difficulty settings. Please Frontier fix this.

Soooo much right... fully supported !!! Don't go from one extrem into another by pulling NPC from L1 to L100... try something in between and adjust in small steps, FD. Thank you !!!

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I have been playing Elite Since 1.0 and became a lifetime supporter because the game had massive potential. It was challenging, but not too challenging. People that wanted that extra oomph and danger went into open and PvP against each other. Everyone had something to do and everyone was having fun doing their own thing. Obviously with updates things changed with the odd hiccup and some bugs, but overall it was a pleasant place for a wide community of players. Since 2.1 dropped the "AI is too easy" brigade has got what they wanted, at the severe cost of every other player that didn't find the "AI too easy". Now we are in a situation where Frontier are going to alienate one massive group over another. The AI should not have been touched, with the exception of fixing those silly bugs and maybe just the Elite ship skills. Instead we have Skynet roaming the galaxy killing half the players making the entire game a sour experience for many that loved the game before.

I noticed some massive changes in 2.1 beta 6 right at the end about a day before launch that the NPC's became much more powerful. I could still fight them and win but only just and only in a highly modified cutter. When 2.1 dropped the first week I managed to fight some npc's and survive the encounter. However the past week after the NPC's where supposed to have been toned down, I am finding that I cannot win any encounter at all. Not one. If I don't run I die. And each death costs 30 million credits. If I fought instead of running I would be totally broke within a month. Almost 2 years of work could be wiped out in 1 month by these new NPC's. That is not what games are supposed to be about. They are meant to be fun for everyone, not just a select group. Since I have been playing for that time, my skills have increased but has reached its plateau. This is about as good as I am ever going to get. There is no "get good" for me.

Please Frontier go back to the old AI but with the bug fixes in place. Those that want a harder experience can go PVP each other as that was what was intended in the first place. No AI will ever be good enough for those guys so why should players that are not so good have to suffer or stop playing the game because a a few people found it too easy. Or why not introduce difficulty settings. Please Frontier fix this.

I am sorry but open is not just for PvP. I play exclusively in open and in nearly two years have only had 1 PvP encounter. I like the added challenge (I am no combat pilot, infact i suck at it), but before the update the AI was so easy, even when it didn't bug out, I didn't have to think about it.

Now it isn't easy, and I need to adapt to the new challange and the way the AI works.

What are you doing when in combat and what ships are you fighting and what ship are you in?

There is loads of help in the forums, with people better then me that can give you pointers on where you maybe going wrong.

 

[XenonBuster]

Put all the enhanced AI in open and leave the other groups to those who either don't want combat or are,like myself, not very good at it