News NPC AI update

[Riverside]

But I also want to play and have fun! And hauling crap between system to system isn't particularly fun. Or being in an asteroid field working (yes, mining is a job, not entertainment). Before 2.1 combat was lame. Insanely lame and lobotomized. Now, I'm having fun.

When it was too easy for you before, did you try handicapping yourself in any way? Using smaller shields to get a better jumprange or more cargo space? I did, a lot of cmdrs did this.

When 2.1 came out I was in the position where I could still (mostly) survive in a fully tanked combat ship, but there was no more 'overhead' for me to be able to optimise the loadout. The AI didn't need to be made harder, I think it just needed to get better with bug fixes & tactical improvements.

 

[Riverside]

Where do you sit? (image from google)

 

[MIRCON]

Greetings to ALL commander
and a sound HELLO Geht's yet to ED.
Sorry my english is not the best.

I have played as a young boy with the C64 ELITE with heart and soul and just got ED.
Much purchased and newly Built only to ED to play the PC again. Great new ELITE dangerous. Thanks a lot for this.

But after the update of the NPC Engineers are simply too strong.
What shoud that ?
The fighting is fun but what it no longer is so.
This has certainly noticed any.
Would like to improve my fighting rank, and then by the rest. It is a little pride to have geschaft.
The NPC sit next to my ship and before I could do something about it are my
SHIELDS despite 3x Shield Booster almost shot off, cut off is always difficult and makes me angry.
Silk which I play ED micht more so readily and frequently, because fighting that makes it the most fun, right?
If this game would not ONLINE, I would UPDATE yarn not install.
Why the SCHWIRIGKEITSGRAD can not be selected by you, as with the other games such as:

-very easy
-easy
-normal
-hard
-very hard
-elite
So everyone can decide for themselves, and at the EASY gets KD perhaps less CR or needs more victories for the new rank.
Greetings and flies careful ....
Your KD M.

 

[Insomnia]

When it was too easy for you before, did you try handicapping yourself in any way? Using smaller shields to get a better jumprange or more cargo space? I did, a lot of cmdrs did this.

When 2.1 came out I was in the position where I could still (mostly) survive in a fully tanked combat ship, but there was no more 'overhead' for me to be able to optimise the loadout. The AI didn't need to be made harder, I think it just needed to get better with bug fixes & tactical improvements.

I don't see how that is a valid option... But I did fight multiple ships instead and took on Pythons and Anacondas with wingmen. That upped the difficulties a tad.
I see your point but to "handicap" a ship doesn't make the AI any better.
I really do think the AI needed to be tougher. Not on lower ranks though.

 

[Zorkin]

I play games to relax. And 2.1.02 has made this stressful instead.

Pre-2.1 I could take on a wing of 3 dangerous smaller ships and elite larger ships (not without a fight). Now I run from any Expert+ wings > 2.

I once encountered an Expert DBS in my Python, in <10s it took out my prismatic shield (boosted with all A0 shield boosters) with just (fixed?) lasers. I had to run.

Now I switched to my FDL, even when it's been engineer upgraded a lot and a little bit more survivable, I still run from Deadly+ larger ships. There is no way I can win the fight so why bother?

And yes, never, ever have a bounty or carry cargo. You will get interdicted almost every jump.

Delivery missions where NPCs may attack up (from the urgent message) is also ridiculous. Once I had killed the first attacker, then the same one showed up a few mins later while I was recharging my shields - resurrected. And you can get attacked by more that the number of NPCs the mission transactions tell you like this will be the 4 out of 3 "interested" party. So check your destination before taking on the job, a run to Hutton Orbital will probably have you interdicted over 100 times.

As I said in the beginning - stressful.

 

[Riverside]

I don't see how that is a valid option... But I did fight multiple ships instead and took on Pythons and Anacondas with wingmen. That upped the difficulties a tad.
I see your point but to "handicap" a ship doesn't make the AI any better.
I really do think the AI needed to be tougher. Not on lower ranks though.

Thank you Insomnia, I appreciate your honest sentiment. You are right of course that challenging yourself to beat an enemy with less than optimal equipment doesn't make the AI any harder, but it does make the game more of a challenge for you.

I hope you can appreciate that for many, the game was already sufficient a challenge with optimal equipment, and that now they are left with no further ability to upgrade to match the harder hitting AI with tougher shields etc.

I would counter the standard 'get better at playing' with 'couldn't you have set yourself more of a challenge'. I agree that the AI was bugged before, it has had various issues since 1.0 (when I started) but previous issues failed safe (eg the non-firing pirate at the moment). The 2.1 AI failed hard, and has undermined the confidence of a great many cmdrs.

Where we differ perhaps is that I don't play a game to feel humbled, I have any number of RL things I can do to experience that.
I play games to achieve a (usually self imposed) target to better myself. In this case, I chose to re-earn my Acornsoft Elite badge by getting to Elite in under a year. I achieved it, it made me feel great & now that achievement has been diminished because I was apparently playing on easy mode all along.

What do you hope to achieve with the harder AI that you couldn't do before?

 

[EvilMadcat]

Another day passed without an update, or communication regarding the status of any fixes? how is the water stand on the AI ?

 

[Shinzon Ramius]

My updated Steam Review:

Not Recommended
3.2 hrs last two weeks / 528.0 hrs on record
Posted: 7 Jun, 2015 @ 11:37am
Updated: 19 Jun @ 9:44pm


Original rating (Posted: 7 Jun, 2015 @ 11:37am): "Recommended" - Epic, galactic scale, shared sandbox space simulator.


Updated - 19 June, 2016


Latest patch 2.1 means that if you not combat ready or focused, your f###ed. After over 600 hours - including beta and pre-steam account consolidation, I'll have to hang up my helmet until the devs can fix it.


Too much time commitment required only to get wasted in mismatched Ai combat.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

My updated Steam Review:

Not Recommended
3.2 hrs last two weeks / 528.0 hrs on record
Posted: 7 Jun, 2015 @ 11:37am
Updated: 19 Jun @ 9:44pm


Original rating (Posted: 7 Jun, 2015 @ 11:37am): "Recommended" - Epic, galactic scale, shared sandbox space simulator.


Updated - 19 June, 2016


Latest patch 2.1 means that if you not combat ready or focused, your f###ed. After over 600 hours - including beta and pre-steam account consolidation, I'll have to hang up my helmet until the devs can fix it.


Too much time commitment required only to get wasted in mismatched Ai combat.

Just not true.

 

[Arvel Yael]

I had a weird experience today. Flying in my type 7, and I got interdicted. Went through the routine, submit to interdiction, four pips to shields, deploy chaff, boost, select nearest star system and high wake out. I jumped out and got away with my shields still on two rings , and had quite a nice adrenaline rush.
My destination was in the system that I'd just left though, so I had to return, which I did as soon as my shields were back up to three rings.
This time I got interdicted by a different guy in a cobra, submitted to interdiction, and my ship went spinning hugely wildly out of control. four pips, deploy chaff, this time I thought I'd launch a couple of mines to see what he did. What he did was kill me. In the space it took me to drop a pair of mines (two launchers), this cobra took my shields down from full (and on four pips) and blew my ship up.

Two questions that arise from this are; Do cobras frequently three-shot-kill type 7 freighters? and the second of which is, What is the point of having mine launchers to cover you as you run away, if to deploy mines you have to stop running away?

It's been an interesting day.

 

[LuckyNimrot]

I can only agree Zorkin. I just played ELITE not as shoter but to trade and explore. Fought usually only to defend my cargo or occasionally in the mining area. In this way I've earned in nearly 170 hours of play my A-rated ASP and good 20,000,000. After the update I have (at the beginning) liked the changes to the anomalies. But then I noticed; Getting into an Anomaly is like playing Russian roulette. I think to my self, no Problem lets fly some Transport Missions to fill the Credit hole. Bu then I noticed; My Shields not strong enough to defend me against two Eagles and Escape is no option, after three times they get me out of SC my hull was down. Meanwhile, I had enough enemy encounters that I can no longer pay my insurance and from the previously very positive game experience only frustration remains. For me as casual gamer, this is no fun!

I don’t understand why Frontier try’s to build some kind of like ‘Hardcore’ Opponents. Of course, Balancing is always a critical task and I agree that those ‘Elite’ Commanders should get their challenge. But for me it is not fair changing the Difficulty of the game from hard to deadly or something. Have anyone tried to begin a new career? I Think I never come that far when starting with 2.1.0.2. Sad!

 

[Gorsedd]

Just not true.

Yet so MANY complaints to the contrary. You apparently haven't lost over 30 mil to super AI's destructive power. I suppose it must be nice for those who sit alone on high but, for the casual players, it's a pain. I don't seek out combat but, will fight if I can. When my "A" rated Python with SCB is destroyed in 10 sec. after being interdicted the moment I enter the star, there is something amiss. I have played since 2015 and I'm certain NO ships had seekers that made a whizzing noise as they decimated my hull. Never took heat damage before either. The smarter AI is fine, the AI with weapons we can't get is not fun. So, it may not be true in YOUR world, but it is in many of ours.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I thought it was just me that saw that. I had the same thing occur and started to second guess my own eyes. I also did not get credit when I killed him. I had and NPC hound me in one system because of the job I was carrying 9 times. First time he blew me away in 10 sec. Python glued to my back. 3rd Python lost in one week. Finally, I lead him into the Nav Beacon area and let the greenies work him over then I came in and killed it. No other way to do it. He carried whizzing seekers and other super charged goodies and I was about to hang up the HOTAS. Thanks for confirming that I'm not "totally" nuts.

 

[Otherwhere]

And I'm still working my way toward an "A:-rated ship. Small comfort that veterans are getting destroyed in such short order, not just me!

Which makes me wonder: Are the NPCs using OP weapons? Can players take out other players/NPCs in such a short amount of time? Or is there something wrong? It's one thing to be challenged, it's another to be simply murdered.

 

[Insomnia]

I would counter the standard 'get better at playing' with 'couldn't you have set yourself more of a challenge'.

I can do it for fun, but to do that on purpose because the game doesn't provide a challenge makes the game extremely stupid.

What do you hope to achieve with the harder AI that you couldn't do before?

The actual achievement of killing it.
You see, ranks doesn't mean squat for me. Anyone can become Elite by just playing the game. It has no status at all. Ranks tells you how much you've played, not how good you are.
Before 2.1, I didn't find anything of much interest other than flying around. Nothing gave me any sense of achievement whatsoever, and I didn't find a purpose of doing anything except flying and explore.
Now, after engaging a fight with an Anaconda, and kill it, gives me a huge sense of achievement that no credits can ever give me.
Trust me I'm not a top pilot. Not even a good one. But I want to feel the game has a purpose. And killing tough NPCs gave Elite a purpose.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

Anyone can become Elite by just playing the game. It has no status at all. Ranks tells you how much you've played, not how good you are.

I've seen this mentioned before in the forums but I'm also pretty sure I've read, possibly official, that to gain combat rank you have to take on higher level enemies than your current rating. You can't just attack multitudes of mostly harmless NPCs and become Elite ranked. Is this true or am I wrong?

 

[Max Gandalf]

I've seen this mentioned before in the forums but I'm also pretty sure I've read, possibly official, that to gain combat rank you have to take on higher level enemies than your current rating. You can't just attack multitudes of mostly harmless NPCs and become Elite ranked. Is this true or am I wrong?

You should be right. The Wiki says if you are Expert you won't get any points for harmless NPCs. If you are deadly you need at least expert ranks to increase your rank. (I think its described in the manual too. Not 100% sure)

 

[Riverside]

You should be right. The Wiki says if you are Expert you won't get any points for harmless NPCs. If you are deadly you need at least expert ranks to increase your rank. (I think its described in the manual too. Not 100% sure)

http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Combat

You can get to elite only having killed Expert opponents, you would have to kill about 40,000 though I think.

 

[derpbuddyuk]

These sky-net controlled npc's are really ruining this game i was attacked by a federal gunship whilst in my asp first hit Shields gone second hit hull 50% well third hit i was using hard earned credits to re-buy this is getting ridiculous now.

 

[Riverside]

I can do it for fun, but to do that on purpose because the game doesn't provide a challenge makes the game extremely stupid.

So you were in your comfort zone before, not as challenging as you could handle. I'm sure the game provided some challenge for you, you said so a few posts up. I was too, and after achieving what I set out to do early, I went for a stretch goal of triple Elite (with the deadline unchanged). I managed that too and it made me proud. It takes persistence, tenacity, it makes you realise a few things about the kind of player you are (whether you are a farmer/grinder for one, I don't see myself as one). This is a core part of the experience for this classic title, for me.

Trust me

This is an interesting choice of words

I got tremendous satisfaction from killing my first pirate lord (Elite Anaconda) in a Viper way back (probably 1.1, it was before the Vulture/FDL came out). I tried several times unsuccessfully but I refused to give up, I changed tactics & managed to get his shields down, the Police arrived (in a scripted way) to distract it while I finished the kill. I thought it was fantastic. I never thought it was too easy & I was truly disappointed when one of the later patches broke those mission types. Perhaps you were too?

I killed an Elite Vulture that jumped me yesterday while I was carrying scavenged cargo in a Python. The Police jumped in almost immediately but the Vulture ignored the Police, carried on jousting me with unchanging tactics until his hull reached zero. There was virtually no satisfaction from it, I didn't learn anything, it was probably all over in less than a minute.

My Python had a pair of C3 Burst turrets on top & I didn't even see my enemy for most of the fight. How is this better? It's managed the remarkable trick of being frustrating & unchallenging at the same time. Not better by any metric I'd measure AI by (ie intelligence, behaving like a human), just harder.

Some of the new comms chatter lines are cool though, 'this is not the trade ship you are looking for' is brilliant

 

[TigerTen]

Hey guys,

We wanted to share a quick update with you to let you know how the investigation into the NPC AI has been progressing after the removal of the Engineers weapons for the NPCs and what the next steps are.

The development team have been hard at work investigating these bugs. To give you a little more information, it appears that the unusual weapons attacks were caused by some form of networking issue which allowed the NPC AI to merge weapon stats and abilities. Meaning that all new and never before seen (sometimes devastating) weapons were created, such as a rail gun with the fire rate of a pulse laser. These appear to have been compounded by the additional stats and abilities of the engineers weaponry. (We don’t think the AI became sentient in a Skynet-style uprising! ). However, the valiant Mark Allen from the Development team has managed to terminate these NPCs in their tracks.

The bug fix is expected to go live in our next point release which is planned for the end of this week/early next week but we’ll have more news on the exact time in the normal patch notes forum.

I would just like to take this opportunity to clarify a few misconceptions. The AI has in no way been reduced, it remains the glorious, improved version from the update. The only action that we’ve taken so far has been to remove the engineer weapons to allow us to investigate the issue and address a key bug. Once this bug fix goes live we’ll be able to see how the AI is performing and then, over time, should we feel that the balancing is right to introduce a very select few high end engineers weapons to the highest ranked NPCs we will investigate that option. However, that won’t be immediately as we want to ensure that the balance is just right.

Edit: Please note this point update will be PC specific and the Xbox One update will need to follow after. We'll let you know as soon as we have more information.

Thank you I'm sorry, but I called it "

Originally Posted by JezzahThought they'd removed the experimental weapon effects from npc ships? They were going to phase them back in or something later in the season after a balance pass?



I think they "LIED" to us... You ever see a Mulit Gun / RAILGUN with unlimited ammo ... I have ...

The computer is smarter then the DEV. team - Ever hear of "SKYNET"..."

Unfortunate I have work for large company's first thing they do when they screw up is lie, do not feel bad " The Government" does too yours and mine ...

Thanks for the SKYNET plug...

TigerTen