News NPC AI update

[Tyger]

SKYNET is ruining this game and they do nothing these new npc's will be the end of most players wanting to play this game anymore my patience and faith slowly leave they upped the npc's way too much for a casual gamer.

The constant interdiction after interdiction the constant give me your cargo when you have nothing the whole npc thing has got silly instead they concentrate on thargoids fix the core game first.

Couldn't agree more - although to be frank, I don't have a problem racking up the bounties when it happens.

Fact is, disconnects, mission screwups, RNG, constant 'god factor' by Devs, and many other flawed and in some cases consistently poor areas of the game should be fixed first. Keriieessttt, Engineers certainly arn't fixed and yet out pops guardians.

A word of warning FD. Don't become a 'Rome' - too big to manage - refine and put right the wrongs first 'before' growth. You will fail otherwise.

 

[Tacyon]

I've had a few "   " run-in's like the past 10 or so posts have had. Very experienced T9 driver, lost it the other night to a invisible NPC (until dropped) who when I submitted, got the message I'd submitted and dropped, then got the failed escape and hyper spin (lost count at 20+) 4 to pips and popped chaff. 1st volley, one ring on shields (A5 with 3x A0 boosters) 2nd volley, ~50% hull, 3rd volley, insurance screen. I've had this basically same thing happen while in my Python hull and was able to pew pew back as it's better equipped for exciting encounters.
Last nite, I was on a tight schedule both in and out of the game and wanted to finish up a run. I get a message that someone likes me and I see him coming around into position. So I wanted to try something, I throttle back, drop out of super cruse and then boost about 10-12 times getting as far as I can from my initial drop point. Now, my aggressor "should" drop at my wake site placing him far behind me and possible off radar. I know I'm a long way off and might not see him so I'm about to engage SC and what appears at my 2-o-clock but my Conda aggressor. That SHOULDN'T be possible. Kind of limits the use of any real world tactics. He was facing the wrong way at least and I was able to boost away. 6-7 boost later and he is outta range and about to drop from radar.

 

[WinterCharm]

New players get easier AI. Remember the NPC's you fight are based on your combat rank.

 

[march topcat]

I like a strong AI, it keeps the Game challenging. But I do not like at all when AI does magic. So instead of creating cheating NPCs, FD should work on the flight skills of the AI. It's wrong and immersion breaking, if the AI can do things that are not possible for the human player or has overpowered weapons or enhanced maneuverability.

A thing I do not like either is the following: When you're in a combat zone and there are several allied and enemy ships present, the enemy always concentrates fire on your ship. And of course, you're own NPC allies don't support you at all. That makes fighting in Combat zones, especially high intensity, next to impossible.

 

[EzeThieL]

Hey guys,

We wanted to share a quick update with you to let you know how the investigation into the NPC AI has been progressing after the removal of the Engineers weapons for the NPCs and what the next steps are.

The development team have been hard at work investigating these bugs. To give you a little more information, it appears that the unusual weapons attacks were caused by some form of networking issue which allowed the NPC AI to merge weapon stats and abilities. Meaning that all new and never before seen (sometimes devastating) weapons were created, such as a rail gun with the fire rate of a pulse laser. These appear to have been compounded by the additional stats and abilities of the engineers weaponry. (We don’t think the AI became sentient in a Skynet-style uprising! ). However, the valiant Mark Allen from the Development team has managed to terminate these NPCs in their tracks.

The bug fix is expected to go live in our next point release which is planned for the end of this week/early next week but we’ll have more news on the exact time in the normal patch notes forum.

I would just like to take this opportunity to clarify a few misconceptions. The AI has in no way been reduced, it remains the glorious, improved version from the update. The only action that we’ve taken so far has been to remove the engineer weapons to allow us to investigate the issue and address a key bug. Once this bug fix goes live we’ll be able to see how the AI is performing and then, over time, should we feel that the balancing is right to introduce a very select few high end engineers weapons to the highest ranked NPCs we will investigate that option. However, that won’t be immediately as we want to ensure that the balance is just right.

Edit: Please note this point update will be PC specific and the Xbox One update will need to follow after. We'll let you know as soon as we have more information.

Thank you for you time for reporting this to us, good to know bugs are trying and are fixed. Tho, as the Tyger said, focus much more on this bugs as they are many and after some time of not fixing this it will be an overwhelming job to keep track and fixing. Don't add more, fix the ones you have. Anyway, thx again.

Couldn't agree more - although to be frank, I don't have a problem racking up the bounties when it happens.

Fact is, disconnects, mission screwups, RNG, constant 'god factor' by Devs, and many other flawed and in some cases consistently poor areas of the game should be fixed first. Keriieessttt, Engineers certainly arn't fixed and yet out pops guardians.

A word of warning FD. Don't become a 'Rome' - too big to manage - refine and put right the wrongs first 'before' growth. You will fail otherwise.

Exactly what I think also, leaving the wrongs behind and focusing on expansions will be the doom, we seen this happening in the past in so many games right?

 

[slartybartfast]

Couldn't agree more - although to be frank, I don't have a problem racking up the bounties when it happens.

Fact is, disconnects, mission screwups, RNG, constant 'god factor' by Devs, and many other flawed and in some cases consistently poor areas of the game should be fixed first. Keriieessttt, Engineers certainly arn't fixed and yet out pops guardians.

A word of warning FD. Don't become a 'Rome' - too big to manage - refine and put right the wrongs first 'before' growth. You will fail otherwise.

I don't think you know how FD works, for instance when Horizons was first shown off we were told the the people working on the planets had been at it for a year.
Now if his is anything to go by the people doing the guardians have been only doing that. with other people doing the iterations of whats gone before.
It has always been fairly obvious to those that have been around a while that FD has a timetable, as there has been a lot of forward thinking and making or leaving room for what is to come, anyone remember the lil screen between your legs that had nothing on it, now replaced with a pop up holographic screen that does all you srv's and fighters.
So the only question is did FD leave enough room in the timetable for all the changes that the players have demanded? i think for the most part they have, and they have learned a lot from the RNG and the other bits a bobs and that's why we are getting these feedback streams, its to speed things up a bit and to keep us in the loop.
Managing a large and enthusiastic player base in this type of ever changing game must be a hard thing to get right for the huge companies that are used to doing this sort of online game, and i think FD are getting so much better at it.
FD are always refining things eventually i should imagine everything will have a fairly big update to it.
So don't worry it will get there and it will get better

 

[EightRoundsRapid]

I like a strong AI, it keeps the Game challenging. But I do not like at all when AI does magic. So instead of creating cheating NPCs, FD should work on the flight skills of the AI. It's wrong and immersion breaking, if the AI can do things that are not possible for the human player or has overpowered weapons or enhanced maneuverability.

A thing I do not like either is the following: When you're in a combat zone and there are several allied and enemy ships present, the enemy always concentrates fire on your ship. And of course, you're own NPC allies don't support you at all. That makes fighting in Combat zones, especially high intensity, next to impossible.

Agreed. Infinite ammo, heatsinks, chaff and general munitions along with the ability to home in on you, wherever you are no matter if that is 20 km from your wake or through the middle of a battle, is what makes them so irritating. All these things make a tactical response impossible, as said previously. I would love to see some solutions or response from FD towards addressing these specific problems.

 

[pipo zelvelder]

I'm an older gentleman that doesn't really play for the fighting aspect of the game although I understand it's part of the whole experience.

I have been killed 6 times over the last 3-4 days which I would characterize as my Type 7 with 5A shields and other support was reduced to dust in a matter of 8-10 seconds by NPC players. It's not a fight. My shields are down immediately and I'm at 50% before I know a fight is on. There is no flight, there is no turning recourse or maneuvering. It's just instant death. I'll be off the game for and extended time. I've spent tens of millions of credits getting my ships back, but this simply isn't worth the effort. I estimate more than 20 hours of grind to get back to where I was but unfortunately every mining excursion or trading run ends in insta-death. The latest I was showing my teenage kids the game but they were hardly impressed as I was suddenly spinning wreckage in space when I spent the previous two hours showing them how to play. I was latest killed at 3:00 CST. I have no idea if the Gods that oversee have any ability to see why this is occurring. My ship is within limits of its power supply so my shields shouldn't seeming collapse.

I disappointed because I found the game to be great fun until this started happening. Now the solution is out of my hands.

I am totally with you and feel the same way. Picked up mining again with my Clipper to stay out of trouble, but i am constantly interdicted going to the asteroid fields or coming back from it. Luckily I know very well how to flee or kill them with mines, but it is no fun playing. The thing is, I do not know what triggers this. I do not choose a power, do not do any missions any more and even drop most or all of my engineering stuff and still are interdicted 50% of the time. There must be something wrong, but what??

 

[Tath]

I am totally with you and feel the same way. Picked up mining again with my Clipper to stay out of trouble, but i am constantly interdicted going to the asteroid fields or coming back from it. Luckily I know very well how to flee or kill them with mines, but it is no fun playing. The thing is, I do not know what triggers this. I do not choose a power, do not do any missions any more and even drop most or all of my engineering stuff and still are interdicted 50% of the time. There must be something wrong, but what??

Hi pipo zelvelder,

Have you reported it as a bug?

 

[PunyHuman]

I have a love/hate relationship with the upgraded NPC pilots:
On the one hand, if the game were easy all the time, it would get boring. So adapting my strategies for more difficult opponents is fun. It's a puzzle to solve.
On the other hand, getting destroyed by an Elite NPC pilot that can out run, out turn, and out gun you gets irritating. Nobody will put up with inescapable death for long. Mark my words.

For example, there have been more than a few times where I was destroyed by an Elite rated Imperial Clipper while in my Python. It is disturbing to encounter a ship that should have a maneuver rating of 2(?) that is out-turning a ship with a maneuver rating of 6. The solution was to upgrade my thrusters for even better turning and enough speed to actually flee if needed. Add hull armor to survive for longer, even though it costs me jump range. And lastly, change my weapon loadout to something that will destroy an opponent like this more efficiently. (Carrying light weapons for better jump range isn't worth it.)

So, this worked for a guy that can afford to outfit a Python. What about folks in a Type-7? A lot of the bigger, slower, ships must be no fun at all because they can't outrun or outgun anything.

Things could get better with launchable fighters, but most of the smaller ships that newer players have can't support that.

Therefore I think that Frontier should implement the ability for player to hire NPC wingmen. If a guy in a Type-7 goes on a mining run, and has a couple of mercenary vipers on his side, that could really help things -- spend a little money, watch the dogfight show. Especially, if you can hire an Elite NPC wingman to counter the Elite NPC pirate that is after you.

 

[Ziljan]

On the one hand, if the game were easy all the time, it would get boring.

Apart from attacking a coriolis station directly, the game is quite "easy all the time." With engineers, even my worst ship is playing the game on godmode. Hence the AI is due for a serious upgrade. Or even better, a Thargoid invasion of devastating proportions.

 

[PunyHuman]

Apart from attacking a coriolis station directly, the game is quite "easy all the time." With engineers, even my worst ship is playing the game on godmode. Hence the AI is due for a serious upgrade. Or even better, a Thargoid invasion of devastating proportions.

Easy for us to call the game easy having played since the beginning. New players that don't have the cash, or haven't put in the time to gather all the stuff needed for Engineer upgrades, are going to have a tough time surviving. There needs to be a path to success for people that don't have billions of credits lying around. It's been a long time since I was flying around on my one ship with with a minimal re-buy budget, but Frontier needs to keep newer players from being repulsed by the difficulty. (They also need to keep the old veterans from getting bored.) So, my suggested solution is to allow people to hire NPC help if they feel the need. Maybe hired help could be limited to Solo mode, as Private Group and Online should be able to get real live wingmen.

 

[DNYI]

Easy for us to call the game easy having played since the beginning. New players that don't have the cash, or haven't put in the time to gather all the stuff needed for Engineer upgrades, are going to have a tough time surviving. There needs to be a path to success for people that don't have billions of credits lying around. It's been a long time since I was flying around on my one ship with with a minimal re-buy budget, but Frontier needs to keep newer players from being repulsed by the difficulty. (They also need to keep the old veterans from getting bored.) So, my suggested solution is to allow people to hire NPC help if they feel the need. Maybe hired help could be limited to Solo mode, as Private Group and Online should be able to get real live wingmen.

I agree except for some of us even with over 780 hours of playtime, the combat became too hard with the AI changes in v2.1. Not everyone is the best of pilots after playing alot and some may already be playing to the best of their physical capabilities. Not everyone has great reflexes, a steady hand, or the full use of both hands/all their fingers. Elite: Dangerous must be accessible to players of differing skill and ability levels if it doesn't want the banging your head against the wall until the wall breaks reputation of some other games (like Dark Souls). Players can always increase the challenge in Elite for themselves by doing things such as: attacking multiple ships at a time, limiting what weapons/modules/ships you use, always using flight assist, never flying backwards, etc. Players can not decrease the challenge level below that of flying to the best of their abilities, using the best build with the most powerful ship fighting a single target flying a lesser ship. Continually asking for this lowest challenge level to be raised just alienates players from the game just so the best players "feel challenged" without actually doing things to challenge themselves.

 

[CMDR Kantos Kan]

Easy for us to call the game easy having played since the beginning. New players that don't have the cash, or haven't put in the time to gather all the stuff needed for Engineer upgrades, are going to have a tough time surviving. There needs to be a path to success for people that don't have billions of credits lying around. It's been a long time since I was flying around on my one ship with with a minimal re-buy budget, but Frontier needs to keep newer players from being repulsed by the difficulty. (They also need to keep the old veterans from getting bored.) So, my suggested solution is to allow people to hire NPC help if they feel the need. Maybe hired help could be limited to Solo mode, as Private Group and Online should be able to get real live wingmen.

Don't you get something like 1,000cr when you start the game? Hiring cost would then need to be very cheap for new players to be able to afford them...

 

[Mordhar]

I have a love/hate relationship with the upgraded NPC pilots:
On the one hand, if the game were easy all the time, it would get boring. So adapting my strategies for more difficult opponents is fun. It's a puzzle to solve.
On the other hand, getting destroyed by an Elite NPC pilot that can out run, out turn, and out gun you gets irritating. Nobody will put up with inescapable death for long. Mark my words.

For example, there have been more than a few times where I was destroyed by an Elite rated Imperial Clipper while in my Python. It is disturbing to encounter a ship that should have a maneuver rating of 2(?) that is out-turning a ship with a maneuver rating of 6. The solution was to upgrade my thrusters for even better turning and enough speed to actually flee if needed. Add hull armor to survive for longer, even though it costs me jump range. And lastly, change my weapon loadout to something that will destroy an opponent like this more efficiently. (Carrying light weapons for better jump range isn't worth it.)

While Imperial Clipper have "formal" maneuverability rating of only 2, it actually have much better pitch (most important thing for staying on target) than Python.
Maneuverability ratings are based on multiple factors such as strafe, yaw/pitch and inertia, some of them more important than others. For example, FAS (capable of outturning even Eagle) have same rating as Python.

I myself use Python as my primary ship and see high-ranked clippers as one of the more dangerous opponents. My advice: just completely ignore maneuverability ratings shown in shipyard menu because they do not have any practical meaning.

So, this worked for a guy that can afford to outfit a Python. What about folks in a Type-7? A lot of the bigger, slower, ships must be no fun at all because they can't outrun or outgun anything.

I also use specialized T9 miner, and it is fun enough to try to stay alive when returning to station with 100-150 ton of high-value cargo. I do not understand why people say it is "not fun" if they cannot destroy a combat ship with their trading/mining vessel.

Players who cannot afford 20kk for A-grade Cobra or Vulture probably have low combat rating and never meet Deadly/Elite NPCs. And pilot of T7/T9 with Dangerous COMBAT rating (AFAIK minimum prerequisite for being attacked by Elite) probably experienced enough to know how to avoid combat and survive.

Things could get better with launchable fighters, but most of the smaller ships that newer players have can't support that.

Therefore I think that Frontier should implement the ability for player to hire NPC wingmen. If a guy in a Type-7 goes on a mining run, and has a couple of mercenary vipers on his side, that could really help things -- spend a little money, watch the dogfight show. Especially, if you can hire an Elite NPC wingman to counter the Elite NPC pirate that is after you.

Idea of hiring effective AI combat ships as escort for miners/traders is great.
Ship-launched fighters of next update are too weak for that role and not everyone can play in wing with other players. It also allows to have fighter escort for "boring" scenarios like several hours of mining in planetary rings (you need a REALLY good friend to follow you all that time without going AFK).

Don't you get something like 1,000cr when you start the game? Hiring cost would then need to be very cheap for new players to be able to afford them...

It can be done same way as ship-launched fighters (actually using same interface and NPC crew), giving them % from income instead of fixed salary.

 

[pipo zelvelder]

Have you reported it as a bug?

Yes, a few times now. Even gave some hints as where to look for (if i did something special or did not do something). Would be impolite when I just complained on the forum, right? So far however, the problem still exists from time to time. Maybe I let my ranking reset again, that solved the problem for a whole month last time.

 

[pipo zelvelder]

Apart from attacking a coriolis station directly, the game is quite "easy all the time." With engineers, even my worst ship is playing the game on godmode. Hence the AI is due for a serious upgrade. Or even better, a Thargoid invasion of devastating proportions.

Sorry Ziljan, you must be either the best pilot ever, or you are flat wrong. After some internet research, i dare to say that at this moment, the game is treating some players more harsh than others; i have no other explanation (well, there is the bad/best pilot thing). So for some it is a walk in the parc and for others it is bitter survival. If a have a B rated ship, I really have to perform on the tip of my toes to even earn a little bit of credits. When i finally get it to be an A rated ship, I still have to fly easily to avoid being shot to shreds in two interdictions. I am playing for more than half a year now, and I am just on a tenth of the worth of an B rated anaconda, so from sidewindere to anaconda in 24 hours is more like from sidewinder to anaconda in 1000 hours. Then again, maybe that was a myth all along (saw the slavetrade is nerfed already, making it harder on the newbees; and the AI is worse, making it harder on the newbees, etc.)

Did you try flying a D rated Clipper in the new AI? Must be fun for you in godmode... two interdictions later (for me, that is four runs) I wonder iof you have hull left, i really do. But then again, you must get the same Elite FDL ships at you, like I did on mostly harmless...

not trying to sound bitter, just making the statement that there seems to be an unfair interdiction policy, I can cope with most of the other stuff...

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I agree except for some of us even with over 780 hours of playtime, the combat became too hard with the AI changes in v2.1. Not everyone is the best of pilots after playing alot and some may already be playing to the best of their physical capabilities. Not everyone has great reflexes, a steady hand, or the full use of both hands/all their fingers. Elite: Dangerous must be accessible to players of differing skill and ability levels if it doesn't want the banging your head against the wall until the wall breaks reputation of some other games (like Dark Souls). Players can always increase the challenge in Elite for themselves by doing things such as: attacking multiple ships at a time, limiting what weapons/modules/ships you use, always using flight assist, never flying backwards, etc. Players can not decrease the challenge level below that of flying to the best of their abilities, using the best build with the most powerful ship fighting a single target flying a lesser ship. Continually asking for this lowest challenge level to be raised just alienates players from the game just so the best players "feel challenged" without actually doing things to challenge themselves.

totally with you!

 

[Kruger]

While Imperial Clipper have "formal" maneuverability rating of only 2, it actually have much better pitch (most important thing for staying on target) than Python.
Maneuverability ratings are based on multiple factors such as strafe, yaw/pitch and inertia, some of them more important than others. For example, FAS (capable of outturning even Eagle) have same rating as Python.

I myself use Python as my primary ship and see high-ranked clippers as one of the more dangerous opponents. My advice: just completely ignore maneuverability ratings shown in shipyard menu because they do not have any practical meaning.

I agree. The FdL has a high maneuverability rating but turns and pitches like a boat which is absurd for a ship classified as a fighter.

I also use specialized T9 miner, and it is fun enough to try to stay alive when returning to station with 100-150 ton of high-value cargo. I do not understand why people say it is "not fun" if they cannot destroy a combat ship with their trading/mining vessel.

Players who cannot afford 20kk for A-grade Cobra or Vulture probably have low combat rating and never meet Deadly/Elite NPCs. And pilot of T7/T9 with Dangerous COMBAT rating (AFAIK minimum prerequisite for being attacked by Elite) probably experienced enough to know how to avoid combat and survive.

Fun is a rather subjective term. Just because you have fun trying to survive in your T9 doesn't mean others do.

My combat rating is Dangerous. My trading vessel wouldn't even be able to scratch a Sidewinder (Unless it tried to ram me... possibly), and despite that I don't have fun when every single Elite rated NPC feels like I committed some form of sacrilege against them and needs to destroy me. And God forbid one of those NPCs pilots an Anaconda; I know how to avoid combat until I get mass-locked and can't get away, even high-waking is a perilous plan.

Idea of hiring effective AI combat ships as escort for miners/traders is great.
Ship-launched fighters of next update are too weak for that role and not everyone can play in wing with other players. It also allows to have fighter escort for "boring" scenarios like several hours of mining in planetary rings (you need a REALLY good friend to follow you all that time without going AFK).

And I agree about the ship launched fighters being too weak. From the little bit I've played of the Beta, it seems I can only find NPC pilots no higher than... Expert I think it was. That's going to really help against every Elite pilot that has a hard-on for my death. Especially since all the fighters have going for them is speed and agility but hit like a breeze and have a hull about as strong as tissue paper.

It can be done same way as ship-launched fighters (actually using same interface and NPC crew), giving them % from income instead of fixed salary.

It's a flat hiring cost, but then they also take a percent of profit as compensation. And the better the pilot, the higher the cut. I think the Expert NPC that I had with me took a 12% cut of my profits.

 

[pipo zelvelder]

It's a flat hiring cost, but then they also take a percent of profit as compensation. And the better the pilot, the higher the cut. I think the Expert NPC that I had with me took a 12% cut of my profits.

I see... So again this is not for the newbees and starting players, and that will probably mean that to keep the balance of power, it will be harder on them again...

 

[Riverside]

I see... So again this is not for the newbees and starting players, and that will probably mean that to keep the balance of power, it will be harder on them again...

If it helps you feel any better about it the NPC crew/fighter don't really give you any advantage, it may be that a skilled & practiced pilot would trouble you, but that pilot would probably be trouble whether they had the NPC escort or not. I found them to be quite endearing as pets though, and having one on board made me a) not want to lose the hull even more than usual, and b) apparently less likely to be interdicted by psycho NPCs.

So go ahead & fit one if tamagotchi are your thing