News NPC AI update

and there he goes, stacking 10 missions from CEOS, proudly carrying 10 engineer cargo he got from the prior three missions, and with this B-rated FSD, he could just afford with his last money...
How does he know about Ceos? From the forums? Reddit? Then he can also find information on which ship he buys and how to outfit it. Hint: a well equipped Cobra Mk III comes for the same prize and makes escaping easier.

So this bancrupted player brought it al on himself; good for him to start from scratch in a brand new sidewinder!
And then might have learned from the experience... or rage quit... or whatever
 
There's a mistake in this sentence somewhere...

To be fair you can build (an admittedly terrible) C-rated cargo hauling Asp for about 12m but I know what you mean. Having said that, if I can avoid dying when interdicted in my T9 which even with level 3 dirty drives has a phenomenal boost speed of 240, I'm sure I could avoid it in the afore-mentioned Asp which is considerably faster even with 5C thrusters equipped.

The point that so many people seem to not be getting here is that there is nothing about surviving interdictions that require you to do any fancy flying. You literally just zero throttle to submit to the interdiction, boost once, select your jump-out system and engage FSD. In the vast majority of interdictions (I'm talking about well over 95%)even in my T9 the npc will simply not have time to even get a shot on you before you are out of there.

The one and only 'skill' or piece of knowledge that's needed is to always fly with a jump out of the system plotted, i.e. when you arrive in a system, go to the galaxy map immediately (not after you've fuel scooped and started flying towards your target) and click to plot a jump to the nearest system. You can then still select your target station or planetary base to fly towards in the system you're in just like always, but if you get interdicted you only have to press the next navigation point hotkey to immediately target your jump-out system.

Pretty much every video I have ever seen of someone dying to an npc interdiction includes them frantically scrolling down the system list in the left hand panel to target somewhere to try to jump out to, all whilst getting shot to pieces. Usually with two pips in weapons, engines and shields for added fail. Five seconds spent on entry to a system setting up your escape is not a lot of work compared to a 10m+ rebuy.

The problem is not the npcs and it's nothing to do with needing engineered ships either. If I can get a T9 out of an interdiction without taking a shot using this method, people can do it in any ship because there is nothing slower.
 
Let's be honest here, this "Elite: Dangerous", not slightly "Dangerous", somewhat "Dangerous" or not at all "Dangerous". Also "elite" means the highest level, not beginner, average or good.

Everyone here plays the same game, under the same programing code and it is designed to provide variety in its responses to player input, it would be very dull if it wasn't this way.

No question, the learning curve is steep for beginners and you will get blown up, a lot, initially. The issue is that you need to play the game, not let the game play you.

If you persist in trying to mine in a ship that has little or no combat capability (armament, shields, speed), you will pay the price unless you are good at running. If you get caught with engineer bits because you are hoarding them, blame yourself, no the game. You have to take small steps initially and build up.

The way to success is play the game and be aware of its patterns.

FD designed this with space combat as its center piece, otherwise it would be called "Elite:Trading, Mining, Exploring...".

New players should not be running unmodded/lightly modded ships that are beyond their means to rebuy, doing things that are sure to attract NPC's, in missions/actions that are risky from the start.

IMHO the best strategy is use combat to your advantage, work up to a Vulture and kill NPC's, collect bounties. This the fastest way to earn CR. Mod for speed, offensive and defensive capabilities, you will be surprised what class 3 mods can do for you ship. Of all the small NPC's that I face, the hardest kill is the Vulture. While you do this, you will gain combat skill.

It will be a long slog, but you will be rewarded when you can bankroll a Python and mod it. This will allow you to do the mining, trading and exploring with relative ease and go from there. You want a Cutter or a Corvette, start doing the grind early, same goes for Elite status of your choice.

As to the lack of guidance, FD purposely makes everything vague. You have to be self-reliant, read posts, ask questions, experiment, sift through the information and keep the good stuff. Write it down, I keep note paper to jot down things.

This is an interactive game that rewards participation at multiple levels, in-game, out-game, again by design.

As to rolling back current game levels or "dumb" down combat AI? No support for that from me.

The dumb-down argument brings me to think of "Atlas Shrugged", lower expectations to satisfy the greater "need", do not aspire to raising yourself to higher levels as those in power will "help" you by keeping "everyone" happy and at the same level.

This is a road to plain vanilla and a disservice to improved game play/design.

As to the same NPC re-appearing time after time? My experience, kill it the first time, and the second time, CR in the bank. Overmatched? Run till you have the ship to fight with and then you don't have to run anymore.

You have to eliminate the cause, the inability to fight, not the symptom, getting blown up.
 
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I will translate: A beginning player is for me someone in the first three months of gameplay... A C-rated ASP is a ship which costs only 8M, so this will be one of the first "bigger" ships he can afford in his first months, although he will not have learned a lot about the game (remember, this is Elite, and not sudoku); he will probably not yet know about how to flee, not how to fight bigger ships and not that missions are dangerous.

and there he goes, stacking 10 missions from CEOS, proudly carrying 10 engineer cargo he got from the prior three missions, and with this B-rated FSD, he could just afford with his last money...

to be interrupted by an Elite anaconda, and learning the hard way that mission stacking is not very handy, that fleeing is an art, that you must have insurance and that engineer cargo should be sold, not kept....

So this bancrupted player brought it al on himself; good for him to start from scratch in a brand new sidewinder!


then again... how could he have known?? Because insurance is on page 54 of the manual? Because the internet is filled with good advice (and some bad too)? This game IS brutal to beginning players; not explaining that a C-rated ship is very dangerous to be in when interdicted; not explaining that engineer cargo is potentially drawing interdictors; not explaining that missions are the easiest way to get yourself a very heavy opponent... etc. etc. etc.

In all fairness, the way interdictions work right now is utter pants. And I don't mean the fact that they happen, I mean the circumstances.

How does Joe N. PCPirate know what my cargo hold contains? He didn't scan me, he just appeared out of the ether because somewhere in the game there's a variation on "if cargo.engineer in pilot.cargohold { difficulty++ }" somewhere in the code. It makes no sense in universe. This random loser had no way of knowing what I had from hundreds of LY away in supercruise.

Further, he can keep chasing me and interdicting me again and again even faster than FSD cooldown from an interdiction should allow, until I say screw it and go play something else until the game stops being dumb.
 
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To be fair you can build (an admittedly terrible) C-rated cargo hauling Asp for about 12m but I know what you mean. Having said that, if I can avoid dying when interdicted in my T9 which even with level 3 dirty drives has a phenomenal boost speed of 240, I'm sure I could avoid it in the afore-mentioned Asp which is considerably faster even with 5C thrusters equipped.

The point that so many people seem to not be getting here is that there is nothing about surviving interdictions that require you to do any fancy flying. You literally just zero throttle to submit to the interdiction, boost once, select your jump-out system and engage FSD. In the vast majority of interdictions (I'm talking about well over 95%)even in my T9 the npc will simply not have time to even get a shot on you before you are out of there.

The one and only 'skill' or piece of knowledge that's needed is to always fly with a jump out of the system plotted, i.e. when you arrive in a system, go to the galaxy map immediately (not after you've fuel scooped and started flying towards your target) and click to plot a jump to the nearest system. You can then still select your target station or planetary base to fly towards in the system you're in just like always, but if you get interdicted you only have to press the next navigation point hotkey to immediately target your jump-out system.

Pretty much every video I have ever seen of someone dying to an npc interdiction includes them frantically scrolling down the system list in the left hand panel to target somewhere to try to jump out to, all whilst getting shot to pieces. Usually with two pips in weapons, engines and shields for added fail. Five seconds spent on entry to a system setting up your escape is not a lot of work compared to a 10m+ rebuy.

The problem is not the npcs and it's nothing to do with needing engineered ships either. If I can get a T9 out of an interdiction without taking a shot using this method, people can do it in any ship because there is nothing slower.

What you say is completely valid & good advice, however I'd like to add a few extra caveats. Not to argue your point, but hopefully to add to it.

Lets take a long haul example; you leave the station & jump, jump, jump & eventually reach your destination system. Now during the jump phase of the journey interdictions are pretty easy to deal with, just as Red Anders says. You either circle in supercruise while charging the FSD for the next jump, or you submit & high wake taking minimal damage if you have your wits about you. Only basic skills required, but pay attention to your surroundings.

Then you have the final part of the journey, from star to station. If you see the 'that's the ship I'm looking for' message, you are going to have to deal with it, so anticipate & plan. As soon as you can, head away from the star in a random direction, open galmap & plot a route to another system (I use my first bookmark, it's just the quickest way to plot a route. It doesn't matter where, as long as you have enough fuel. Back out of galmap & reselect your target station from the left nav panel, now you have both destinations plotted. From supercruise press next target (I have mine assigned to 'N') if you want to jump out, otherwise continue to the station. If you drop to normal space for any reason, your high-wake target will automatically be selected (provided you used galmap & not the nav panel). Select 240 on the distributor too.

Avoiding local pirates is easy enough, just don't go straight from star to station, instead take a big arc above or below the plane of the system. This won't solve the custom NPCs, but it will avoid the locals. As you get close to the station make sure you have checked out all the locals in supercruise, noting any that fly towards you, and watching to see if the loop round behind you. Don't run straight for the station, spiral in, or overspeed past to see if you can get them to hit a local planet etc. At this point it not longer matters whether it's your Custom NPC or a local, you are in the same boat.

Assuming you were unable to evade the interdiction, your next step (during the interdiction) is to select highest threat (I have mine mapped to 'G') to show who is interdicting you. If it's a local you might be lucky & it'll be some low ranking thug that you can win the interdiction against. If you don't think you can win it don't panic, just follow the target as well as you can & zero throttle ('X') to submit.

As soon as you are in normal space (you may need to wait for the spinning to reduce if you failed the interdiction) boost, boost again & change the distributor to 420 (full power to shields). This is where the skill starts. Panicking won't help, you planned for this earlier.

Now you are going to put your prepared plan into action, as soon as the cooldown has finished start charging for the high wake, no need to worry about lining up with the target immediately, but be aware of where it is. Personally I never high wake in this circumstance, but I am always ready to.

Describe a smooth arc in the direction of your high wake target, do not slow or suddenly change direction (which will slow you down). If you go straight you are an easy target, you have 15 secs to line up with your escape, so no need to rush, and at a moments notice you can line up & just boost again to jump.

You have a faster ship - you will be out of effective weapons range soon enough & can simply cancel the jump & let the police handle the miscreant, or wait for a few minutes after they have dropped off your probably D-rated scanner.

You have a slow but manoeuvrable ship - you can joust them while the FSD charges, taking as little fire as possible. FA-off, pull up, wait a sec then boost, FA-on again to turn even quicker. If you are doing well let the Police distract/kill them, if you are doing badly line up your target & jump away.

You have a slow, worse manoeuvring ship with big shields & armour - Joust & ram, don't deploy hardpoints, it will cancel the FSD charge.

You have a slow, worse manoeuvring ship with poor shields & little armour - pray that your jump completes in time & try to learn not to be so greedy with your cargo capacity.

If your destination system is anarchy no Police will come & you are on your own. Consider your survival chances & maybe find another destination.

I'm far from the most skilled combat pilot but I can run away like a pro. Have a plan of action, don't panic, win the game.
 
In all fairness, the way interdictions work right now is utter pants. And I don't mean the fact that they happen, I mean the circumstances.

Yes, yes it is. I went to the Birmingham Elite meet wearing a t-shirt emblazoned with "No more psycho NPCs, we have players for that". I completely agree that it is stupid, but nevertheless they are in the game so we have to deal with them if we carry any cargo.
 
The problem is not the npcs and it's nothing to do with needing engineered ships either. If I can get a T9 out of an interdiction without taking a shot using this method, people can do it in any ship because there is nothing slower.

The case you are covering is the one that you don't want to fight. When you know your ship will not survive an attack and you always flee. If that is your style of play, it should work just fine. For some however (including myself), always fleeing is not our style of play. Not that we never flee, occasionally we do of course. If you are in an asp and you get interdicted by a deadly Python, you know you don't have good chances to survive, so we do what you suggest and flee successfully.

Personally speaking, I usually want to fight and I want to become better in fighting (current rank dangerous). When I spend 5 minutes in a dogfight against an opponent that I have brought his shields down several times and gotten his hull down to 50% and in the first time the opponent drops my shields, I'm dust in seconds, something is not working properly IMHO. At that moment there is no time to escape or outmaneuver (he's deadly accurate), usually thrusters or FSD get disabled with a couple of shots and there is nothing you can do to avoid a multi million penalty. There is the sense of cheating on the NPC's part. How can he destroy me in seconds when I was hitting him with 2 medium cannons for 2-3 minutes only to reduce his shieldless hull to 50%?

The situation I describe is not frequent, I admit. It happens in less than 1 out of 10 encounters. But it happens. And when it does, the game looses its appeal. There is no thrill in going up against this kind of opponents, at least not for me.
 
Personally speaking, I usually want to fight and I want to become better in fighting (current rank dangerous).

If you are outclassed & simply need to escape you pretty well always can now (I would say always with a little forward planning & a suitable loadout). Like you, I don't like to run away, and unless my ship has no weapons at all (not unusual on my ships) I will generally kill the target, even if I have to wait for them to catch up once I've out-thought them, because it's practice in a 'safe' environment (I know I can escape at any time).

Get the basics of survival down, then work on combat. Fighting in a RES is very different from fighting off an interdictor, for one thing you're not usually in a Combat ship when you're interdicted ;)
 
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After 2-3 mon. from my previois post im this thread I found several key things in new AI:

1. If you want 2 fight, you not should, but must fly at least ~25K LY between engineers. No other way indeed.
2. Medium ships, such as Python, can fight back, but only being equiped by top blueprint LVL engineered missiles, shields, shilels boosters, heating lasers... shortly - everything. And! If you want large cargo bay, you will fight with dissiculties!
3. Large ships are much better, but 5th LVL engineered FSD& thrusters needed too.

Feeling myself like a self-censored "explorer" in the bubble... Latest engenering flight 4 python - ~1K LY. Home, Selena, Wyrd, Missiles, Pulse lasers, mission 2 open Nemo (not given on land station!) and home. And Python WAS previously engineererd by FSD, shields, and boosters - another 700-800LY! Opening 3 engineers, requesting rare goods - 600K LY each, not talking about Palin (Lucky am I, 6015LY previous exploration flight)... And a huge warehouse is needed to improve them to lvl5, my cutter was ofter half-loaded...
The idea about forcing men to engineers is clear for me... Due to ths I have more 100000LY flown, having 60000 before engineers...
 
After 2-3 mon. from my previois post im this thread I found several key things in new AI:

1. If you want 2 fight, you not should, but must fly at least ~25K LY between engineers. No other way indeed.
2. Medium ships, such as Python, can fight back, but only being equiped by top blueprint LVL engineered missiles, shields, shilels boosters, heating lasers... shortly - everything. And! If you want large cargo bay, you will fight with dissiculties!
3. Large ships are much better, but 5th LVL engineered FSD& thrusters needed too.

I can certainly see why you have come to those conclusions, and with the adaptive AI if you engineer a ship to toughen it up your personalised psycho NPC interdictor will simply fight harder or in other ways be a tougher opponent.

At the moment it seems that if you decide to flee, as long as you are quick about it there is generally ample opportunity to do so, but if you choose to fight you must be pretty confident of being able to beat your opponent, and the only way to do that is with experience of learning what opponent your ship/loadout attracts, then setting it up to beat that opponent.

I don't like this tailored approach, I think it's way too gamey for a 'life sim' like this, but if the alternative is the original 2.1 AI I'll take this. With experience it's manageable, and level 1 engineers mods are easy enough to get. Farseer is probably the only one you need to visit to get some basic mods on a vanilla ship.

Different Cmdrs peak at different skill levels too of course, it's important that the game caters to the higher end too, but I don't think it should be at the expense of the more regular Cmdr (who was able to cope before 2.1).
 
I would like to play with smart NPC. Current AI unfortunately is flying like brick. At the beginning of 2.1 AI was pretty nice.
 
I would like to play with smart NPC. Current AI unfortunately is flying like brick. At the beginning of 2.1 AI was pretty nice.

I disagree. It is strange how the NPCs attack in very different ways depending on what ship you are in. There may be a method to the madness but without info from the devs I think most of us are confused about this dynamic.

For me there are only two things that really stand out about Interdictions that show how NPCs do not follow the rules of the game mechanics.

1. Mission related NPCs often give no warning and magically appear on radar the instant the interdiction begins. It would be logical for our ships to be able to detect being scanned. How else would the NPC know they have the right target?

2. NPCs wear you down then jump away to interdict you again seconds later and they magically have full hull and shields over and over.
 
I disagree. It is strange how the NPCs attack in very different ways depending on what ship you are in. There may be a method to the madness but without info from the devs I think most of us are confused about this dynamic.

For me there are only two things that really stand out about Interdictions that show how NPCs do not follow the rules of the game mechanics.

1. Mission related NPCs often give no warning and magically appear on radar the instant the interdiction begins. It would be logical for our ships to be able to detect being scanned. How else would the NPC know they have the right target?

2. NPCs wear you down then jump away to interdict you again seconds later and they magically have full hull and shields over and over.

Got a couple of things that really irk me to add onto that short list of yours:

3. NPCs aren't constrained to the 40 second FSD cool-down from interdicting. You submit, boost, low wake out 5 seconds later. Same NPC reappears in less than five seconds of you low waking several hundred light-seconds away and is heading for you at full speed.

4. NPCs can instantly drop in your general vicinity the moment you drop from supercruise near a station despite said NPC being nowhere near you in supercruise or even on radar.

5. Some mission related NPCs can continuously hound you (Over several hundred light-years) despite being destroyed. Several times in fact. Seems YOU have to be the one to land the killing blow to stop that NPC from respawning.

The 2.1/2 AI isn't better. It's Fake Difficulty; giving the NPCs the ability to cheat and circumvent the game mechanics despite FDs countless claims that NPCs don't cheat (Unless that was just for combat related situations).
 
Got a couple of things that really irk me to add onto that short list of yours:

3. NPCs aren't constrained to the 40 second FSD cool-down from interdicting. You submit, boost, low wake out 5 seconds later. Same NPC reappears in less than five seconds of you low waking several hundred light-seconds away and is heading for you at full speed.

4. NPCs can instantly drop in your general vicinity the moment you drop from supercruise near a station despite said NPC being nowhere near you in supercruise or even on radar.

5. Some mission related NPCs can continuously hound you (Over several hundred light-years) despite being destroyed. Several times in fact. Seems YOU have to be the one to land the killing blow to stop that NPC from respawning.

The 2.1/2 AI isn't better. It's Fake Difficulty; giving the NPCs the ability to cheat and circumvent the game mechanics despite FDs countless claims that NPCs don't cheat (Unless that was just for combat related situations).

Can you provide any type of proof for npc cheating ?

Most of us carry cargo to res or engage multiples in wings to make engagement interesting
 
Getting jumped by NPC wings is terrible.

And, for the poor souls who have no trouble taking out a wing of 5 elite NPC anacondas in an unmodified, stock sidewinder, let's put them on their own server with NPCs who have God Mode enabled so they shut up.
 
Getting jumped by NPC wings is terrible.

And, for the poor souls who have no trouble taking out a wing of 5 elite NPC anacondas in an unmodified, stock sidewinder, let's put them on their own server with NPCs who have God Mode enabled so they shut up.

Do you want really to kill 5 elite condas in stock sidewinder?

Lets try to see that from other perspective. Lets hipotheticaly assume you have Elite rank, and an Anaconda, and you are winged up with three other Elite Anaconda friends.

Should other player or NPC be able to destroy your wing in sidey?
 
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Do you want really to kill 5 elite condas in stock sidewinder?

Lets try to see that from other perspective. Lets hipotheticaly assume you have Elite rank, and an Anaconda, and you are winged up with three other Elite Anaconda friends.

Should other player or NPC be able to destroy your wing in sidey?

No, you should dominate.
 
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