NPC piracy is gone away, what to do now?

[Galdatron]

However NPC AI's should have somewhat realistic behavior when it comes to being the victim of pirating.

That's fairly spot on.

Most here have focused on the fact that pre-update, it was a little too unrealistic with AI circling and shooting you as you sat stationary shield tanking their pitiful dps whilst your limpets broke the hatch dropping their goods in one location allowing your cargo limpets to collect the loot quickly. Seems the new update has made it justifiably more challenging, but pushed the realism a little too far in the other direction.

Maybe an RNG chance of victim surrender would at least make PVE piracy more profitable whilst still providing a challenge when they decide to run.

The way I see it, Piracy 'should' be a viable profit making endeavour on a par with some of the other activities such as passenger missions and deep core mining. It simply adds more choice, and if one is more profitable than the other, inevitably people will opt for the profit at the expense of fun. Variety is the spice of life!

 

[Old Duck]

There's no issue with an NPC trying to run when you're after its cargo. You have no business stealing the cargo and just like a human you'd rather not handover the cargo. However NPC AI's should have somewhat realistic behavior when it comes to being the victim of pirating.

1) NPC should decide to run or comply. Could be based on pirate's ship strength and speed.
2) If not complying you should be able to take out its shields and knockout its drive or disrupt the FSD and further knockout key systems. This requires a well prepared ship loadout.
3) The NPC should comply at this point and drop cargo since its only other alternative is death.

This imo give a much more realistic approach to pirating NPC's. And it's not even hard to implement properly. When I read this and the changes made to the AI I can only start crying. Is Frontier really so disconnected with their whole game? I mean c'mon do they even want to work on this game anymore? I'm more and more getting the impression that they do only because we want more content and that there would be outrage if they would stop putting some effort into it.

I believe if #3 is not happening post-update, then this is a bug, not a purposeful design change. As for #1 and #2, have you tested these, or like me have you only read about the AI changes? Once all the other bugs are worked out, I'll test all these things myself, of course.

All that said, if an NPC is able to escape using legitimate means (in other words, it's not cheating), then why should it drop its cargo? I don't drop my cargo when I know I can escape from a pirate.

ps - I'm still waiting for all these "I'm a real pirate, you're a fake pirate!" yahoos to try PvP piracy and see how far they get with their "real piracy" tactics. Post of a video of that, please

 

[D3rv1sh]

I believe if #3 is not happening post-update, then this is a bug, not a purposeful design change. As for #1 and #2, have you tested these, or like me have you only read about the AI changes? Once all the other bugs are worked out, I'll test all these things myself, of course.

No these are my view on how an NPC AI should react to a pirate. That's why I used 'should' in there. I pirated NPC's before this patch hit and it was terrible. Taking out its shields, point defense and most weapons and just sit there and shield tank while siphoning the cargo. But right now it doesn't seem to be in a much better spot.

All that said, if an NPC is able to escape using legitimate means (in other words, it's not cheating), then why should it drop its cargo? I don't drop my cargo when I know I can escape from a pirate.

Hence I said a well prepared ship loadout is needed to prevent the NPC from escaping in order to get the cargo.

And after all this time Frontier still can't get this right. 100 man team dedicated to ED. Go F yourselves Frontier. There is no heart in this game from your end. The heart is this community who truly loves this game.

 

[Old Duck]

No these are my view on how an NPC AI should react to a pirate. That's why I used 'should' in there. I pirated NPC's before this patch hit and it was terrible. Taking out its shields, point defense and most weapons and just sit there and shield tank while siphoning the cargo. But right now it doesn't seem to be in a much better spot.

You and I usually agree more than disagree, so forgive me, but I'm confused - why do you think NPCs dropping mines and running (the new response to pirates) is a bad thing? Especially since you feel that what they used to do was bad... You don't like it when they fight, you don't like it when they run, but what other options are there - invite you over for tea?

 

[D3rv1sh]

You and I usually agree more than disagree, so forgive me, but I'm confused - why do you think NPCs dropping mines and running (the new response to pirates) is a bad thing? Especially since you feel that what they used to do was bad... You don't like it when they fight, you don't like it when they run, but what other options are there - invite you over for tea?

There's no issue with an NPC trying to run when you're after its cargo. You have no business stealing the cargo and just like a human you'd rather not handover the cargo.

C'mon Duck...

 

[Galdatron]

You don't like it when they fight, you don't like it when they run, but what other options are there

How about a mix of the 2, or even some more possible outcomes?

Instead of them having a fixed AI response (drop mines and run), how about sometimes they run, sometimes they fight, sometimes they surrender?

That would mix things up, make things less predictable, add more verity, and dare I say, make piracy more viable with the player being more willing to invest time on the hunt, praying they'll just god damn surrender. As I said earlier, if it's always a chore, always predictable and more importantly not very profitable, players will just chose to do something else making piracy a niche activity, just like it was before they dropped anything substantial. This would be a shame, because piracy in games like ED should be a big thing.

 

[Old Duck]

How about a mix of the 2, or even some more possible outcomes?

Instead of them having a fixed AI response (drop mines and run), how about sometimes they run, sometimes they fight, sometimes they surrender?

I totally agree with you on this. Earlier in this thread I mention that if I'm pirating in an Adder and I go after a Type-9 equipped with an SLF and some decent weapons, it makes sense the Type-9 would stand its ground. It never makes sense when a Type-6 aggressively attacks my BattleConda as if he were flying an FAS instead.

I would also expect an Elite trader to behave differently than a Competent one. That said, I don't try to go "toe to toe" with a Corvette when I'm in my Dolphin, regardless of my rank vs. his (thinking PvP now). I can, however, usually escape from many lesser experienced Corvettes in my Dolphin, which seems to be the complaint of a few in this thread.

 

[Six6VI]

Type-6 aggressively attacks my BattleConda as if he were flying an FAS instead.

Just pick the little tortoise up, and put it back in the cardboard box...

 

[Melanthes]

If there were some doupts about the profitability of piracy, this should end them. These screenshots are taken with the newest patch, as you can see:

This was a Jackpot, a T-9 with an novice pilot. The system is an anarchy system, which enabled me to plunder it until my hold was filled.
Here you can see him tumbling at roughly 30m/s:

There was also a smuggling run necessary to get that much money out of it.

 

[Old Duck]

If there were some doupts about the profitability of piracy, this should end them. These screenshots are taken with the newest patch, as you can see:

This was a Jackpot, a T-9 with an novice pilot. The system is an anarchy system, which enabled me to plunder it until my hold was filled.

But this guy says,

Like i said early in this thread: people that support the changes don't even do npc piracy OR not play the game anymore.

And this famous YouTube Celebrity confidently states,

Some may argue the change in AI behavior was needed, but I assure you these are part time pirates (if that) with only one foot in the door.

So surely your evidence is fake, since all (two) the "REAL" pirates disagree with you

 

[Jukelo]

If there were some doupts about the profitability of piracy, this should end them. These screenshots are taken with the newest patch, as you can see:
View attachment 129693

This was a Jackpot, a T-9 with an novice pilot. The system is an anarchy system, which enabled me to plunder it until my hold was filled.
Here you can see him tumbling at roughly 30m/s:
View attachment 129694

As you can see, there was also a smuggling run necessary to get that much money out of it.

Not too shabby for a part-time pirate.

 

[D3rv1sh]

But this guy says,

And this famous YouTube Celebrity confidently states,

So surely your evidence is fake, since all (two) the "REAL" pirates disagree with you

And how often do you think you stumble upon a T9 novice NPC pilot that just rolls over? I have done a lot of pirating in my cutter previous patch and in the right systems, but I rarely got any good T9 spawns. The profit is not the issue here. The realism of NPC piracy is. If that last part was fixed, then the fun factor would increase and there would be a more consistent income from pirating.

You and anyone else can't just sit here and tell me that in the current state NPC pirating is fun. It isn't. It is dumb, boring and neglected by Frontier for far too long. Have fun disabling thrusters/FSD whatever and bumping the ship to get it to a near stop.

 

[Old Duck]

You and anyone else can't just sit here and tell me that in the current state NPC pirating is fun.

I technically cannot tell you that NPC pirating after the update is fun for me, because I'm waiting for the update to the update. I can say it sounds fun to me, based on the descriptions of "anyone else" in this thread (both the people praising and complaining). Does that mean there's no room for improvement? Read my posts and you'll see that I offer plenty of suggestions for improvement. However, I think this update, based on what I've read, is a big step in the right direction.

 

[D3rv1sh]

I technically cannot tell you that NPC pirating after the update is fun for me, because I'm waiting for the update to the update. I can say it sounds fun to me, based on the descriptions of "anyone else" in this thread (both the people praising and complaining). Does that mean there's no room for improvement? Read my posts and you'll see that I offer plenty of suggestions for improvement. However, I think this update, based on what I've read, is a big step in the right direction.

If Frontier was actually concerned about improving the NPC pirating experience then I'd say yes. Is there proof that this is just a step in the right direction and more changes for the good when it comes to NPC piracy are to follow? I at the moment have zero confidence that this will 'improve' further. There is really no excuse why they couldn't have added a little bit more realism to the behavior of NPC pilots. We're not talking about complex AI behavior here.

But hey if you find hunting for lowly skilled NPC pilots is fun, then yeah sure. Or... higher skilled ones and just repeatedly knock their drives out. There is literally no excuse for Frontier to not have NPC pilots react accordingly to the situation by now. Just a simple "Hey, this cargo is not worth my life!" if the NPC gets knocked out would be an improvement already. The reason its not here is because Frontier could care less about NPC piracy.

 

[CMDR Bert Pigeon]

I've been pirating players and NPC for the last few days.
I can safely say its fun.
For NPC, cos I'm chasing player Miners for void opals (and have scored a few hauls!), I've been hitting Piravte couriors, usually in low or medium security systems.
These NPCs range from Expert to Elite. They are mildly challenging. usually I can get about 13 tons before I have to run from security. repeated a few times cos spawns are quite frequent if you know where to look, I can fill my 60 ton cargo hold in a short time.

Its actually quite a lot of fun and even if you don't score big on the players you can cover your costs quite comfortably on the random NPC private couriors because of what they drop.
I've not encountered any ships with mines yet. But a good mix of runners or fighters depending on rank.

 

[Melanthes]

I've already said it, but the new A.I. and the old spawn allow for consistent and fun gameplay. To be honest, while there can be made a point for realism, I don't think NPCs should give up their cargo that easily. A normal miner can be shot to 20% hull within seconds, if you're remotely capable with fixed weapons or use the standard beam + multicannon loadout. What we have now is actual gameplay, i.e. a problem the game confronts you with, which you can then solve or fail.
On the level of consistency, I'm happy with actually robbing NPCs by incapacitating them. If they react, it should be increasingly panicking messages until they are competent. Because an incapacitated T-7 spewing incompletly armed mines at the corvette slowly stopping him, feels like the panicked reaction of a inexperienced pilot (my last victim, roughly worth 130mil). The comms would just be a nice topping.
If they are competent + I would of course be thrilled if they would leave their cargo, perhaps with a resonant cascade mine mixed in there? That would be a show of ingenuity, which might shock some players.

 

[Arkadi]

Finally I got some time to do a littel piracy myself. Masslocking smaller targets seems to work pretty well. Weaker targets show different reaction, either they submit to my robbery or they fire back. Non fled. I haven't encountered any LTD or private couriers yet though.

Once I thought my victim started to scoop its lost cargo back up. Not sure though if it really happened this way. It'd be a nice touch if it really was so.

 

[Ouberos]

Some of them will do that.

 

[SharkBiscuit]

Just a heads-up fellow space Pirates. I think this may be of interest - was certainly new for me. Now there is a chance of Piracy type "Scenario" at Convoy Dispersal Pattern [Threat 2] signals.
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...-at-convoy-dispersal-pattern-threat-2.512613/

 

[Barlog M.]

Also good manual about modern piracy

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFypyC5zTv0