Odyssey - Plant life confirmed

[Quantis Trap]

I truely hope Nielf is right and get's his wish about procedural plant life, but I'm not going to hold my breath for the feature.

Frontier may have been the first one to use procedural generation on a PC game back in the 80s, BUT Hello Games have proven themselves much much more adept at it in recent years.

I'm beginning to believe that Frontier has largely forgotten how to do what they popularized.

I hope Frontier proves me wrong this year, but if not, Hello Games has truly taken the space game proc gen crown from them!

 

[thistle]

YEESS!! Thanks for giving me the opporchancity to post this again

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5jWtz3rzco

 

[thistle]

Funny as.

 

[Quantis Trap]

YEESS!! Thanks for giving me the opporchancity to post this again

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5jWtz3rzco

Funny as that video may be, it's not fair to dip back and compare video from a game's initial release in 2016 or so. Elite Dangerous was just beginning and a hot mess back then too.

If Elite Dangerous had improved to the extent that NMS has in the same time, we would already be walking of atmospheric planets in E D by now!

It's the constant apologetics of White Knights (sometimes even me) that continues to give Frontier the excuse to do less.

I can't wait for the Odyssey update, BUT it will not be as big in scope as any one of the last four major releases of NMS!

Frontier has never been as dedicated to any of their games as Hello Games is. I respect that dedication and so does the rest of the gaming community because NMS still normally sells for full price where Elite Dangers is constantly at bargain prices.!

I only saying all of this because Elite Dangerous is still my favorite space game and I want it to be better!

 

[NeilF]

My hope is that if/when they do atmospheric worlds they will maybe change their approach to vegetation just because you have to do it on a much larger scale. A "simple" solution isn't going to be appropriate. You're obliged to go further with it.

If the biggest update ever to ED can't start even just simple plant life down the best path - solid diverse procedural generation following believable scientific hand wavium rules - then why would they do it later?

I think if FD are just adjusting hard coded art assets basically in size and colour, with bolted on feature X or Y, depending on Z, then it just points to a worrying ethos IMHO.

 

[CMDR Yates]

I truely hope Nielf is right and get's his wish about procedural plant life, but I'm not going to hold my breath for the feature.

Frontier may have been the first one to use procedural generation on a PC game back in the 80s, BUT Hello Games have proven themselves much much more adept at it in recent years.

I'm beginning to believe that Frontier has largely forgotten how to do what they popularized.

I hope Frontier proves me wrong this year, but if not, Hello Games has truly taken the space game proc gen crown from them!

I don't think they've "forgotten" how to do it.

Frontier isn't a few guys sitting around with a fixed set of skills. It's a business with millions of pounds at its disposal, and whatever features management decide to focus on for a product, even something they've never done before, they can deploy developers and recruit outside talent to realise that if they really decided to go for it.

But there are still practical limits on how many new directions they can push in at once without losing focus and coherence, and massively overspending and overshooting.

I think more likely they've made a decision not to spend money and dev time on bringing about full procedural life at this stage, because they've decided alien life is not the main focus of Odyssey (with its tenuous atmospheric planets), and doesn't warrant the time and funding expenditure when they also have the challenge of building a full first person shooter from the ground up and dovetailing into the game.

If we get handcrafted assets, it's because they've decided it's the most efficient use of time and resources at this stage, not because they "can't do" procedural.

Just because it doesn't come as part of Odyssey, doesn't indicate it wouldn't come as part of a later expansion focusing on complex worlds. That, if it ever does come, would probably be the natural point at which to implement it.

Who know, maybe there will be some procedural elements to the lifeforms in Odyssey. But I won't hold my breath.

 

[dannysquid]

If the biggest update ever to ED can't start even just simple plant life down the best path - solid diverse procedural generation following believable scientific hand wavium rules - then why would they do it later?

I think if FD are just adjusting hard coded art assets basically in size and colour, and adding on feature X or Y, depending on Z, then it just points to a worrying ethos IMHO.

You're probably right, but there's no real NEED to figure out complex vegetation for worlds with tenuous atmospheres while there is a need to do something interesting with vegetation for atmospheric worlds. You obviously can't just have a 10 patches of bushes on an Earth-like world. They've reasonably focused on first-person mechanics rather than shrubs and trees.

 

[Boff'in]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and predict it won't be as in-depth as this. As much as I'd like that.

That's like the No Man's Sky way where a hand-crafted limb or a bud or a stalk can attach to another hand-crafted body/plant part, thus making up a Frankenstein's organism based on procedural generation. That would be amazing (assuming it fitted the game visually).

But I don't expect them to have achieved that.

Because I think if they had achieved that, there's no way they'd seek to spin that as "these will be hand-crafted, resulting in a high-quality experience".

I think they would be shouting from the rooftops about their new procedural life generator, with the emphasis heavily on the procedural generation rather than the technicality of sub-parts being made from handcrafted assets.

My expectation is a few tens (at best a couple hundred) of base flora types, with some minor procedural variations in colouration, texture, and distribution based on star class, temperature, geography, etc. At absolute best (and probably not as likely), maybe biome-type groupings of assets like grasses procedurally placed alongside weird plants and cacti in a credible and visually-appealing way.

I think we'll be able to sequence two identical looking plants on two different planets and the scans will tell us they have different genomes and just happen to look the same due to their adaptations (hence the comments about "convergent life").

To be honest, I'd be happy enough with that, but if I'm wrong and you're right, then I'll be even happier.

Nah I think your imagination was running away with you, I had more of what you were describing in my head

 

[NeilF]

...when they also have the challenge of building a full first person shooter to build from he ground up and dovetail into the game.

And there of course is the other end of the argument. We have the biggest ever development effort for ED, "dovetailing" in a FPS, and instead not investing that huge effort into the core gameplay mechanics and depth.

If the FPS shooter gameplay ends up being a niche enjoyment for CMDRs, and/or indeed basically a Multicrew 2.0 for others, I fear many CMDRs will end up scratching their heads wondering what that development effort could have achieved on the old Western Front, instead of opening up on a whole new Eastern Front

But, that's another discussion

 

[CMDR Yates]

And there of course is the other end of the argument. We have the biggest ever development effort for ED, "dovetailing" in a FPS, and instead not investing that huge effort into the core gameplay mechanics and depth.

If the FPS shooter gameplay ends up being a niche enjoyment for CMDRs, and/or indeed basically a Multicrew 2.0 for others, I fear many CMDRs will end up scratching their heads wondering what that development effort could have achieved on the old Western Front, instead of opening up on a whole new Eastern Front

But, that's another discussion

Yeah, how much the first person element brings to the game remains to be seen.

However, certainly from a marketing perspective, what we've seen so far is probably more attractive to potential buyers not yet invested in the game, than forested planets with procedural life we can only see at a distance because we're stuck in a ship or SRV.

If Odyssey gets walking around outposts and barren atmospherics right, with a large variety handcrafted organics, procedurally placed, and then the next expansion (if there is one) applies that walking around to bustling procedural cities and alien forests with bizarre unique lifeforms... then I'll be a very happy camper.

Others know much more than me, but I'd guesstimate building that procedural engine would be in the same ballpark of difficulty as building a full tactical FPS game with a wealth of associated assets that fits into an existing game.

If the "hard part" for Odyssey is walking around, and the "hard part" of the next one is complex procedural planets, then that would make sense to me. As much as I'd like to have the planets now.

 

[Quantis Trap]

I don't think they've "forgotten" how to do it.

Frontier isn't a few guys sitting around with a fixed set of skills. It's a business with millions of pounds at its disposal, and whatever features management decide to focus on for a product, even something they've never done before, they can deploy developers and recruit outside talent to realise that if they really decided to go for it.

But there are still practical limits on how many new directions they can push in at once without losing focus and coherence, and massively overspending and overshooting.

I think more likely they've made a decision not to spend money and dev time on bringing about full procedural life at this stage, because they've decided alien life is not the main focus of Odyssey (with its tenuous atmospheric planets), and doesn't warrant the time and funding expenditure when they also have the challenge of building a full first person shooter from the ground up and dovetailing into the game.

If we get handcrafted assets, it's because they've decided it's the most efficient use of time and resources at this stage, not because they "can't do" procedural.

Just because it doesn't come as part of Odyssey, doesn't indicate it wouldn't come as part of a later expansion focusing on complex worlds. That, if it ever does come, would probably be the natural point at which to implement it.

Who know, maybe there will be some procedural elements to the lifeforms in Odyssey. But I won't hold my breath.

I totally agree with this and was just saying they may have forgotten proc gen for effect.

Nonetheless, I still think Frontier has been doing themselves a disservice the last couple years by letting the game go to seed so to speak. I just hope Odyssey reverses it.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Id be interested to hear why, if they don't plan on using procedural generation period for plants/animals, why not - as it seems on the face of it an obvious choice for a game that is procedurally generated. Whilst it's not so much of an issue when you're creating a couple of hundred or so plants for the upcoming types of worlds in Odyssey, it seems a gargantuan task to handcraft them for all other sorts of workds, including earth-likes which would presumably need the most variety.

 

[govny]

If the biggest update ever to ED can't start even just simple plant life down the best path - solid diverse procedural generation following believable scientific hand wavium rules - then why would they do it later?

because in this expansion they focused on other features?

 

[Lightspeed]

We craved Legs (well, a lot of us) and they developed Odyssey with legs.

While a large number pleaded for atmospheric planets, I don’t think enough demanded veggies. So the ‘Big Push’ wasn’t in that direction.

Also, how are they going to monetise vegetation in the store?

EDIT - got it ! ... lawnmower paint jobs

 

[thistle]

Funny as that video may be, it's not fair to dip back and compare video from a game's initial release in 2016 or so. Elite Dangerous was just beginning and a hot mess back then too.

If Elite Dangerous had improved to the extent that NMS has in the same time, we would already be walking of atmospheric planets in E D by now!

It's the constant apologetics of White Knights (sometimes even me) that continues to give Frontier the excuse to do less.

I can't wait for the Odyssey update, BUT it will not be as big in scope as any one of the last four major releases of NMS!

Frontier has never been as dedicated to any of their games as Hello Games is. I respect that dedication and so does the rest of the gaming community because NMS still normally sells for full price where Elite Dangers is constantly at bargain prices.!

I only saying all of this because Elite Dangerous is still my favorite space game and I want it to be better!

Ha ha.

 

[Santa de Lapland]

However, certainly from a marketing perspective, what we've seen so far is probably more attractive to potential buyers not yet invested in the game, than forested planets with procedural life we can only see at a distance because we're stuck in a ship or SRV.

Hands down, would be enough to make me invest into a new VR gaming rig, and spent as much time as possible on my luxury lazy chair wearing a VR just jumping from world to another.

Something dripping from other side of the mouth, drinking beer through a straw on other side, naturally fitted with emergency-eject adult diapers.

 

[NeilF]

because in this expansion they focused on other features?

If a job's worth doing...?

If we're going to get atmospheric worlds, and I assume those aren't also going to have basically hard coded plants, then why not start as you mean to go on? Why wouldn't FD put their toe in the water with the nice small scale start of plants on the new 'tenuous atmosphere' worlds being generated via a solid procedural engine. ie: The same engine they'd then presumably expand for atmospheric worlds?

The concern is, the desire/intent isn't there?

 

[JonLuis69]

She also talked about convergent evolution, so you are probably right, different colours and maybe the odd difference in shape but not a great deal of difference really.

That said, I am still massively excited.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

If a job's worth doing...?

If we're going to get atmospheric worlds, and I assume those aren't also going to have basically hard coded plants, then why not start as you mean to go on? Why wouldn't FD put their toe in the water with the nice small scale start of plants on the new 'tenuous atmosphere' worlds being generated via a solid procedural engine. ie: The same engine they'd then presumably expand for atmospheric worlds?

The concern is, the desire/intent isn't there?

Theoretically speaking, a lot easier to whip up a few models to use now rather than a full proc gen system that you won't really take advantage of until much later.

Its a trade off/choice. Yeah, you waste a bit of effort now for later, but in the short term its a gain.

The cost of whipping up those plants is pretty minimal, and they can always remain later in combination with proc gen stuff or replaced.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

And there of course is the other end of the argument. We have the biggest ever development effort for ED, "dovetailing" in a FPS, and instead not investing that huge effort into the core gameplay mechanics and depth.

If the FPS shooter gameplay ends up being a niche enjoyment for CMDRs, and/or indeed basically a Multicrew 2.0 for others, I fear many CMDRs will end up scratching their heads wondering what that development effort could have achieved on the old Western Front, instead of opening up on a whole new Eastern Front

But, that's another discussion

I wouldn't call address some planets adding to the core of the game. If you have Odyssey, Odyssey will become part of the core of the game, it's not a separate FPS tagged on the side. It will add massively to the experience of you as a commander of a space ship if it's as good as it looks.