One Simple suggestion that could nullify the Solo/Open argument AND end the fear of Greifing

[Lobstris]

FWIW. The idea Frontier put forward was for a 'transponder' setting that could be toggled somehow. If the transponder was on, you could see and be seen by other players, if it was off you could not be seen, but nor would you see anyone else (IIRC they'd still be there but you wouldn't know, unless you made the deduction). The whole thing caused very 'lively debate', but the whole idea seems to have disappeared in the rush to get the game out this year.
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See: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=12509&highlight=transponder

 

[CMDR Byrt Makklin]

Well its quite obvious then, his idea simply wouldn't affect your gaming experience, whatever that is, so no requirement for you to pipe up with a comment. Not sure why you even did.

This 100%. My god, i just said in a post on this thread, i have never seen a community like this. So many people scared to death of open mode and hating on it probably without even trying it first. Its ridiculous. As the man said, if you played open at all you would quickly realise that there is no pvp in this game unless its met with a mutual desire to attack each other.

Nope not at all true. I'm back in solo now after some pirate with a super Python interdicted me. I submitted and he opened up on me without a word. I was down to 40% hull before he said anything. I told him to go to hades. If he'd asked nicely in the beginning, he could have had my rares.

I'm not giving you anything after you've just cost me 200000 in repairs. Rather pay the insurance and you can suck up the bounty with nowt.

The problem is with how people are pirating. A real pirate would let you live or let you go - not pop your canopy and leave you with 7 minutes to get to safety then once you'd reached it, interdict you again.

A mugger doesn't stop you in the street, kneecap you, break your elbows and then ask you for a tenner. Not does he watch you crawling away, then smash your knuckles and ask for a tenner or he'll stamp on your skull.

I don't think it's a mechanics issue, I think some people really have the wrong idea about how to pirate right. And I will die before giving up my cargo to someone who doesn't ask before my thrusters are dead.

 

[Sandmann]

The kicker is, though, even if all of the people IN solo were (forcibly or otherwise) to join the main game, it wouldn't make an iota of difference, because any surge in PvP behavior would be shortlived.

[Big snip]

Have you guys considered working out a sort of Open Server organization? Established borders, yada yada, try to make it at least SLIGHTLY more cohesive, so people seeking player interaction are more concentrated?

Yah you are right, most of them would fade into the stars. This is why it actually makes more sense (to me at least) for those who are really seeking PvP to do so in priv groups. Not to "keep them away from us nice PvEers" or anything like that, but because it would make it so much easier to keep all the combattants in a local part of space so you could find a fight, and you'd know that noone there was gonna cry "griefer" coz you waggled a laser at them. You could have teamspeak servers, arrange tournaments, put leaderboards on a website, and even have teams or clans or whatever you wanted... and NOONE could complain about it! It'd basically be ED Fight Club! There's no reason of course that they couldn't hop in and out of open at will either. To me it just seems like the only people that wouldn't work for is those who want to force PvP on players who don't want it.

I'm not suggeating we should ban PvP from open... i'm just saying if I wanted it and I couldn't find it coz the galaxy is so big I'd join a group where I -knew- I could get it.

 

[Zanten]

Yah you are right, most of them would fade into the stars. This is why it actually makes more sense (to me at least) for those who are really seeking PvP to do so in priv groups. Not to "keep them away from us nice PvEers" or anything like that, but because it would make it so much easier to keep all the combattants in a local part of space so you could find a fight, and you'd know that noone there was gonna cry "griefer" coz you waggled a laser at them. You could have teamspeak servers, arrange tournaments, put leaderboards on a website, and even have teams or clans or whatever you wanted... and NOONE could complain about it! It'd basically be ED Fight Club! There's no reason of course that they couldn't hop in and out of open at will either. To me it just seems like the only people that wouldn't work for is those who want to force PvP on players who don't want it.

I'm not suggeating we should ban PvP from open... i'm just saying if I wanted it and I couldn't find it coz the galaxy is so big I'd join a group where I -knew- I could get it.

Yeah, a group for fisticuffs would be good, but even in Open, I think a little cohesion- even lore-friendly setting- outlying some borders in terms of 'Folks looking for other folks will have luck within....' ideally at a point that has a bit of both Federation and Imperial territory for the obvious clash potential. Without it, the mechanic seems to largely be 'Well, guess we'll just wander around til something player-y happens. o.o ' Obviously, anyone could feel free to go outside those borders- and do the usual pirating or bounty hunting on players they find outside the boundaries- but the idea would be that outside those borders, the odds of finding another player are likely to decline sharply.

 

[Egan]

You've only looked at it from one angle. That of PvP and griefing etc. What about those players who just want the solo play experience or who have a crappy connection so thjat solo is all they can manage most of the time? How is this good for them?

They don't care. Their entire mind set is predicated on the idea that every one should be forced to play one way to provide entertainment for them. They genuinely couldn't care less about other people playing a game they spent money on in the way they want to play it.

I work in an industry where I have the 'pleasure' of dealing with people close up every day of my life. A small number of them are nice, most are....not. When I get home from work I do a number of things. I DJ, I make music, I run a music blog, I do a bunch of stuff. I play computer games for 30 minutes of escapism at night. I have NO interest what so ever in meeting people, in chatting to people, in engaging in little ego-bathing contest with people, cooperating with people, fighting with people, asking about the weather with people. I couldn't care less about people. If I was purely scared of playing against other people as the little sheep on this forum keep insisting I could play in a group like Mobius. I don't because I am not interested in playing with other people what so ever. Couldn't give a rats ass about any perceived social aspect. It has never been why I play games.

I. Am. Just. Not. Interested. I bought a game that had three play modes: online, solo and offline. They took one mode away which was very nearly a massive deal breaker for me. Should FD screw me out of the one way I play the game in order to pander to a bunch of mmo trolls. I'll take my money elsewhere - and I'm one of those people who would have probably bought every dlc and expansion.

I've played many online games and mmo over the years and I'm sorry, the idea that the multiplayer aspect and the opportunity to play with other people is anything interesting, exciting or special is one of the the great myths of 21th century gaming.

 

[CMDR Reza Malin]

That was poorly put on my part... I didn't mean you specifically, I was referring to those who argue for forcing players out of solo.

You can't really blame them for being worried about it, Eve is really a grief fest and there are a LOT of Eve olayers coming here and making loud noises demanding their favourite Eve features be included here, as if ED were some sort of spiritual successor to Eve.

Yeah I got that... but if frontier introduces a mechanism that they feel makes solo mode redundant, they're gonna pull solo mode, therefore the end result of this proposal would be closing solo.



Quite probably because they want to play Elite, not X3.



A good proportion of this forum (in fact probably the vast majority) are grumpy old men like myself. Don't go thinking they haven't played PvP though, it was us grumpy old men who came up with the idea in games like Unreal Tournament and Quake. We're not scared of PvP etc, a lot of us just want ED to be a 21st century Elite, not a first person version of some other game, which is what we were promised and what Braben wants too.

Don't get me wrong, I have ONLY played open, I don't find other players to be a problem for me - although I don't really gain from them being in my sky either. Avoiding PvP is pretty simple really, but I support the rights of others to play as close to a "single player version" of ED as possible without being forced to deal with other players.

Some folks love other players, some (like me) simply don't care, and some really don't want them. There's room for us all.

Ok good post i get your drift. I am actually a grumpy oldish man myself, and i do see your point. I understand that EVE is a grief fest and it is something that doesn't interest me in the slightest. I like pvp in games if it is a feature not the basis of the game. I like interacting with other players in general, whether it be hostile or friendly. I would lean towards friendly, but hostile also has its place in my opinion.

My main gripe is that at first glance, they advertised this as an MMO and it looks like an MMO, it just doesn't feel like it at all. The fact that so many people refuse to even enter the same galaxy as other players exacerbates that fact. If there was a major disadvantage to that, i would understand. But there isn't. You can run away from anything and everything if you really don't want to fight. Though i have been playing since launch and never been attacked by a player yet, so i really don't get why so many people are terrified of open mode.

In past MMO games, i have encountered unlikely events and incidents unfolding through human interaction, both good and bad and in the least expected of times and places. Its part of the charm of MMO games in my mind. By playing only solo, not only are people depriving themselves of these opportunities in elite, they deprive others the same thing. Making an overall less 'community game'. It already feels like it is pegged in as a solo game with a token 'multiplayer' element. If the game is moving forward and things are being added, it will be shaped in part by how the community plays together and how they play the game.

I want to see multiplayer enhancing changes coming as it is sorely lacking right now, but the way it is going so far, i am not holding out much hope. A lot of people here seem to view interacting with other players with trepidation, like they are unnerved by the idea of exchanging chat or voice comms with other players.

After reading my post, i am thinking my main issue is i can't for the life of me understand why people would choose to play in a stale NPC populated galaxy when you could play in one also populated with possibly unpredictable, crazy, stupid, funny CMDR's as well as NPC's. It may seem bad of me, but i do wish they would just do away with solo mode, come what may.

 

[Snakebite]

No, while I understand where you're coming from, players are such a rarity that it's great to see them on radar.

I don't see griefing in ED as a problem that needs solving.

I almost agree, as far as I can tell there is no griefing going on, and yet there seems to be an endemic fear of a Galaxy filled with greifers, so much so that half the user base is now hiding in bubble wrap mode.

I was trying to find a way to please everyone and this looks like the best solution so far.

I also agree with the point that said its nice to see human player ships, but i'd loose that touch if it actually got more players into the game.
I also think this fits well with the devs when they said *somewhere* that there really is no reason to know who is player and who is AI, it shouldnt make a difference really.

 

[Joe Spivey]

Ok then. So why, if the PvP guys want to PvP why do they not organise a huge PvP group which they can dip in and out of at will? It seems the perfect solution but whenever it is mentioned everybody goes very quiet.

 

[Daffan]

Why dont they just make an open-only server to go with the open-private-solo server they currently have?

 

[TheDayman]

I know this was discussed in the DDA, but I think we need to revisit this. I posted this suggestion a while back separately from this thread as well.

If there was no way to differentiate between an NPC and a PC (I think you'd have to leave Solo in because of the bandwidth difference between the two - some people legitimately can't play Open), it would solve so many issues. However for this to succeed, an NPC ranked Elite should be able to beat the very best of CMDRs otherwise it would be somewhat pointless.

Or what about a mix of two ideas in this thread - separate the servers entirely (Open Play and solo), and in Open Play removed the hollow icon indicators on the radar?

 

[Cmdr Moritz]

Ok then. So why, if the PvP guys want to PvP why do they not organise a huge PvP group which they can dip in and out of at will? It seems the perfect solution but whenever it is mentioned everybody goes very quiet.

So many players that signed up for a MMO experience will not be pleased by joining a pvp group that is filled with players that joins the group ONLY when they got the all A gear fitted on a neat python or similar..

 

[CMDR Reza Malin]

Yah you are right, most of them would fade into the stars. This is why it actually makes more sense (to me at least) for those who are really seeking PvP to do so in priv groups. Not to "keep them away from us nice PvEers" or anything like that, but because it would make it so much easier to keep all the combattants in a local part of space so you could find a fight, and you'd know that noone there was gonna cry "griefer" coz you waggled a laser at them. You could have teamspeak servers, arrange tournaments, put leaderboards on a website, and even have teams or clans or whatever you wanted... and NOONE could complain about it! It'd basically be ED Fight Club! There's no reason of course that they couldn't hop in and out of open at will either. To me it just seems like the only people that wouldn't work for is those who want to force PvP on players who don't want it.

I'm not suggeating we should ban PvP from open... i'm just saying if I wanted it and I couldn't find it coz the galaxy is so big I'd join a group where I -knew- I could get it.

I don't want to join a group for pvp though, neither do i wish to join a group for pve. I enjoy both. I don't want some fake environment where i have to expect people to do certain things. I would like to have the chance for both aspects in the main game, to happen randomly, like real life. Chance encounters. Organised groups within open play that would be great, like most other MMO games. I don't think its a lot to ask.

As for the guy who got attacked by the python, you were too slow. Have your engine power maxed, boost away, boost again, boost again, FSD. Any 'pirate' interdicting who wants to open fire first will have his weapon power up and will be trying to deploy hardpoints and line up a shot. You will be a distanct speck in that case.

If you are prepared,and situationally aware in this game, it is almost impossible to become a victim of another player.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I wouldn't appreciate this change. I like being able to see other players - although i don't play open so don't worry about PvP.

However, you would need another change as well, and that would be to remove CMDR from the names as well, otherwise its easy enough for a PvPer to cycle targets quickly and see who is a player.

Also, there are a limited number of NPC names (a lot for sure, but eventually you will learn to recognize them. A dedicated PvPer will definitely focus on remembering NPC names.

 

[Snakebite]

Good idea. It would also give those who really don't want to deal with PvP an easier time of hiding outright, if they opt for the Go-To-Some-Distant-System route. A pirate or bounty hunter will only be as interested in them as they would any NPC, minimizing the chance of discovery, and all but eliminating the chance of outright camping, unless the trader says something to break the NPC illusion of course. xP Bravo. ^_^ Maybe an optional tag for the players that want to DECLARE they're players so everyone can see, so those with a 'Come At Me, Bro!' attitude can continue it.

Edit: That being said, while I do think this would be the best way to implement a Solo-less game, it's more like 'As Close To Perfect As Can Be' than actually Perfect. As has been pointed out, those not interested in player-interaction aren't going to be raring for 'It's LIKE Solo Mode Sorta!', and can't help but think more than a few PvP centric players would be displeased at the thought that they CAN'T identify players who don't want to be identified, leaving it up to a coin toss on whether they're targeting a player, or another NPC.

But having thought about it some more I think that this is exactly the way it should be.

A pirate player on the attack will not know until he has initiated his attack whether or not his target is a human player or a dumb AI trader. Likewise a player being interdicted will not know until the combat begins wether is attacker is a dumb AI pirate or a real player. It would add real spice to the game play.

Those wanting to play solo would never know the difference except on a few rare occasions when there attacker actually is a real player and they spot that through the way he flies...

Having certain players flying around with a 'look at me, i'm human' flag would break the immersion for me.... which actually is what happens now.

 

[Soulstain]

Well its quite obvious then, his idea simply wouldn't affect your gaming experience, whatever that is, so no requirement for you to pipe up with a comment. Not sure why you even did.

Please read the post again. The OP said it would "ELIMINATE the need for solo play", so it would in fact END his gaming experience. Maybe YOU should in fact read the post before piping up, sheesh!

 

[Snakebite]

However, you would need another change as well, and that would be to remove CMDR from the names as well,

Good point but easy to solve. Remove it, Give a choice, or make it random for NPC's as well.

Also, there are a limited number of NPC names (a lot for sure, but eventually you will learn to recognize them. A dedicated PvPer will definitely focus on remembering NPC names.

The name generator needs some work, but that's the topic of another thread

 

[Betelgeuse]

I don't want to join a group for pvp though, neither do i wish to join a group for pve. I enjoy both. I don't want some fake environment where i have to expect people to do certain things. I would like to have the chance for both aspects in the main game, to happen randomly, like real life. Chance encounters. Organised groups within open play that would be great, like most other MMO games. I don't think its a lot to ask.

Random PvP on open is OK if it is not your main play but to spend more time finding opponents (who may run away) is a bit of a grind. Until we get more conflict zones where we can choose sides then PvP group is the best option.

 

[Zanten]

But having thought about it some more I think that this is exactly the way it should be.

A pirate player on the attack will not know until he has initiated his attack whether or not his target is a human player or a dumb AI trader. Likewise a player being interdicted will not know until the combat begins wether is attacker is a dumb AI pirate or a real player. It would add real spice to the game play.

Those wanting to play solo would never know the difference except on a few rare occasions when there attacker actually is a real player and they spot that through the way he flies...

Having certain players flying around with a 'look at me, i'm human' flag would break the immersion for me.... which actually is what happens now.

Well, they do say a compromise is usually a solution that leaves both parties unhappy, so... x3

 

[Joe Spivey]

So many players that signed up for a MMO experience will not be pleased by joining a pvp group that is filled with players that joins the group ONLY when they got the all A gear fitted on a neat python or similar..

How do you know this? That is just fearful supposition on your part. But then, you have the choice to do the same. Or make groups with certain bands of equipment... come on, it can be worked out if you want it work. And you still have the MMO experience but with like-minded people who want to go one on one or gang on gang with other like minded people. Surely this is what PvP is all about? Do you not thrill at the challenge of taking on someone in a better ship? Think of the kudos.

 

[Tigga]

The problem is with how people are pirating. A real pirate would let you live or let you go - not pop your canopy and leave you with 7 minutes to get to safety then once you'd reached it, interdict you again.

This is how some people are pirating. This is how I pirate. I ask nicely, and most people ignore me. I think I'd get a better rate of return if I went guns first with anybody who doesn't cut engines right at the start of the interdiction, as I waste a lot of time giving them the option to have the peaceful escape. I'm not going to change the way I do this though, as I'm a lovely chap.

As for "live or let you go" - I don't let you go until you drop something I consider worth letting you go over though. If you jump out without dropping anything, I will try to interdict you again. This wouldn't be letting you go though, this would be you escaping due to the limited time available in an interdiction situation. I rarely kill people without an ultimatum (ie. if you charge your FSD I will finish you off), and if the target says stop, I will stop, but only if they also stop trying to escape. Some people think this is a good ruse... it actually means I'm much more likely to pop you in the next interdiction.

A mugger doesn't stop you in the street, kneecap you, break your elbows and then ask you for a tenner. Not does he watch you crawling away, then smash your knuckles and ask for a tenner or he'll stamp on your skull.

No, he'll first ask you for the money. If you refuse he'll bash you, go through your pockets and take what he asked for, and maybe a little more. Currently the game does support some ways of removing somebody's cargo without their consent, but they usually involve guns, and aren't very reliable, especially if the target is trying his hardest to avoid you managing it.


I've said it before and I'll probably say it again. If the made NPCs actually vaguely dangerous in this game there'd be a lot less hate toward PvP pirates, the good kind and the bad kind. I'm sure that some people's first actual danger (not involving docking deaths) in this game is when I interdict their Type-6s full of rares and ask nicely for some. People really shouldn't have got to that stage of the game without danger IMO.