One Simple suggestion that could nullify the Solo/Open argument AND end the fear of Greifing

[Morbad]

Would LOVE it. It was discussed during beta and all the PvP players boohoo'd it.

I think as completely unrestricted PvP as possible should be allowed by the game, but I also feel that in-game elements should, ideally, never distinguish between PCs and NPCs, except where absolutely necessary.

I'm big on PvP because I'm big on the existence of a plausible universe. Freedom of action, within the bounds of the natural laws of that universe is critical for this. Unrestricted PvP is, for me, a means to an end.

Elite and it's other versions were all *SOLO* games, most if not all of the KS backers paid up for an updated *SOLO* game. Some people are only here for the *SOLO* aspect of the game.
If you want people to try open, stop trying to push open on them - you know the old adage, You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.

I think people should be able to play whatever mode they like, but that open should have as few arbitrary rules as possible, as it does now. I also feel there should be an offline (including private network functionality) game and mod tools.

Regardless, the older games being single player doesn't necessarily mean that backers were looking for another single player game. I played tons of Arena, Daggerfall, and Morrowind, but didn't bother much with Oblivion and Skyrim; lack of multiplayer was a big reason for that. Multiplayer, or at least the potential for it, makes everything better, even for antisocial misanthropes like myself.

 

[Bojangles]

If you where 3000 LY from civilisation then you would be unlikely to see ANY players AI or Human.... The event would be so odd that both players would probably try to communicate anyway....

Yes probably, 3000 LY was a bit of an excessive example, however I still don't want to 'guess' if the ship in my radar is player or NPC. It's nice to know at a glance if you're in the company of another human, and not just for the purpose of pirating (Although there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, it's a game career path and I will happily role play the part with anyone who pirates me).

 

[Zenicetus]

I think as completely unrestricted PvP as possible should be allowed by the game, but I also feel that in-game elements should, ideally, never distinguish between PCs and NPCs, except where absolutely necessary.

Well, aside from the other arguments presented here against it, it's not exactly what people expect in an MMO. In WoW you can always tell the players from NPC's and monsters. How does EvE work.... aren't player ships ID'd separately from NPC ships?

Has there ever been an MMO where players were masked among NPC's, and couldn't be told apart, except for behavior? I'm no expert on MMO's so maybe it's been tried before.

 

[Morbad]

Yes probably, 3000 LY was a bit of an excessive example, however I still don't want to 'guess' if the ship in my radar is player or NPC. It's nice to know at a glance if you're in the company of another human, and not just for the purpose of pirating (Although there is absolutely nothing wrong with it, it's a game career path and I will happily role play the part with anyone who pirates me).

Because of the way the game works, one look at the bandwidth meter (in-game or with third party network tools) will let you know if you are in an instance with another player. So, I don't really think they could completely conceal the distinction, even if they wanted to.

That said, I find I am extremely complacent around NPCs. There is no real mystery, no real threat, no real surprise. They are, by and large, very predictable, very quantifiable factors in any equation.

I know that it takes six (plus or minus one) system authority Vipers to be able to damage me fast enough for me to be risking my own Viper if I decide to try to defeat the whole group in detail. I know that if I am facing large groups of NPCs, that I can sort the entire group by ship speed because they will all chase me as fast as they can, then when the slower ones hit 8km range, they will turn around, at which point I am safe to kill the faster ships...then I can chase down all the slower ones. I know that I can fly through an NPC hornets nest and emerge utterly unscathed.

I can do things to, and around, NPCs that would be flatly suicidal around vaguely skilled players. The fact that I always know when I am facing a player, and can always distinguish them near instantaneously from even large groups, is a huge problem for plausibility. It leads to such ridiculous situations as me taking my Viper and ignoring an entire armada of Pythons and Cobra in a Conflict Zone, to gun down the single free Sidewinder behind them, because I can automagically tell that he is the only one in the entire group that might have a real brain.

 

[Morbad]

Has there ever been an MMO where players were masked among NPC's, and couldn't be told apart, except for behavior? I'm no expert on MMO's so maybe it's been tried before.

Most of the MMOs I've enjoyed didn't really have any NPCs.

ED is just way too big and too heavily instanced to go this route.

 

[Pizzapizza]

Gah, 14 pages later... This appears to a thread attempting to interdict Solo Players into Open Space.

Realize that many players have not chosen solo for the reasons you choose to ascribe to those players.

a. They do not wish to PvP or compete with other humans. Be it killing or being killed.
---A more relaxing experience
---No wait for docking
---Lower-risk credits

b. They do not wish to be griefed or abused by a willful human. (It only takes one to set you back X million, or X hours.)
---'griefed' and 'abused' defined by the people as whatever lessens their gaming experience
---No rule or decree says they are not allowed to play a riskier trading game without the risk other players

c. They want to learn the game before having their soul crushed in any way by a challenge level they can't mitigate.

d. They want to build up vast resources to then...
---play the game they want to
---switch back to Open and play
---switch back to Open and grief and abuse other players

d., e., and f. -- whatever they want, to infinity.

If I had to ascribe motive, a few of these soft-worded answers sound like sharks that are upset so many potential soft targets have chosen to swim in a pool, and, 'please please come into the warm ocean?'. Forcing your will on an NPC just doesn't feel quite the same deep down in the cockles of the your black hearts, (arr!). I've been the shark, I used to have to convince people to play card/board games with me, and I had to encourage them to believe they could win. (Which they can, it's not so bad, I'll be nice, come and play!)

 

[Darkfyre99]

You probably missed this bit from my post, since the thread is moving fast and I'm editing a bit, so here's kind of my follow up response to what you are saying:

I have a few problems with solo. I do not know what the solution is, and that is why I'm in this thread, to see what people think, and also get insight as to how the 'other side' feels. Personally, I think solo/private play is incredibly boring, as it basically creates a risk free environment.
I cannot decide what people find fun, or how they should play a game. However, I think it's a shame that the knee jerk reaction when it comes to a pseudo permadeath game is "Can I play solo?". It's says something about the state of multiplayer games as a whole. Personally, I have yet to encounter any griefers in Elite, and I've been playing since premium beta. I think maybe Elite is the type of game where actual griefers do not really exist.

No offense, but I much prefer single-player games to multi-player games. Not really interested in socializing in a game, because my time on my gaming machine is limited, and I find forums much better to socialize on. The only reason I'm playing open is because I find the chance of being attacked by another player to be enjoyable, but frequently find the results of being attacked by another player to be less so. My playstyle and interests don't lend to victory in PvP very often, especially since I'm in an unarmed courier ship. If open play degenerated into constant PvP attacks, I'd rather play solo and enjoy my game, than in open and not enjoy it.

If I had to choose between solo or open right from the start, I would've picked solo.

 

[Blast Hardcheese]

Interesting idea, makes communication with other commanders more difficult, but would effectively solve the problems you listed. Thoughtful idea, I like it.

 

[Dabba]

If I had to choose between solo or open right from the start, I would've picked solo.

and based on the many posts, polls, and anecdotal evidence so would the majority of people playing this game. Which means forcing people to choose would not have alleviated the problem of not enough people playing in Open, it would have exacerbated it, which is probably why Frontier decided on the current course of action. Its almost like this company that has been successful in this market for 30 years knows what theyre doing after all.

 

[Arindor]

I play open, but I disagree with the idea of removing solo. It's down to the individual how they play. Besides, solo semi caters for the offline crowd atm. Also, removing it would leave a lot of players upset and clamoring for a refund, something which FD need to avoid after the fiasco of no offline.

 

[Sandmann]

Well, aside from the other arguments presented here against it, it's not exactly what people expect in an MMO. In WoW you can always tell the players from NPC's and monsters. How does EvE work.... aren't player ships ID'd separately from NPC ships?

Has there ever been an MMO where players were masked among NPC's, and couldn't be told apart, except for behavior? I'm no expert on MMO's so maybe it's been tried before.

I know you personally aren't doing this, but your post reminded me so now I want to vent...

You know, I get SO tired of hearing "ED needs this feature or can't have that feature because of what other MMO's do" or "ED's not an MMO because it doesn't have my favourite feature". Who really gives a rat's you-know-what what any other MMO does or has? If ED copies all of WoW's features it'll just be Wow in space. If it copies Eve's features it'll just be Eve in a cockpit. If I wanted to play those MMO's I wouldn't be here! Do we REALLY want yet another clone of Elder Scrolls online, but in spaceships? Can we not have an MMO that tries new things and breaks new ground and doesn't cater to people who just want to keep playing Quake in Space?

</rant>

 

[Soulstain]

I know you personally aren't doing this, but your post reminded me so now I want to vent...

You know, I get SO tired of hearing "ED needs this feature or can't have that feature because of what other MMO's do" or "ED's not an MMO because it doesn't have my favourite feature". Who really gives a rat's you-know-what what any other MMO does or has? If ED copies all of WoW's features it'll just be Wow in space. If it copies Eve's features it'll just be Eve in a cockpit. If I wanted to play those MMO's I wouldn't be here! Do we REALLY want yet another clone of Elder Scrolls online, but in spaceships? Can we not have an MMO that tries new things and breaks new ground and doesn't cater to people who just want to keep playing Quake in Space?

</rant>

Yes, we certainly can. But there is nothing wrong with borrowing ideas from other space games which after years of perfecting and making mistakes have gotten some things right. Some people on these forums are adverse to anything being suggested to improve the enjoyment of the game.

 

[Sandmann]

Yes, we certainly can. But there is nothing wrong with borrowing ideas from other space games which after years of perfecting and making mistakes have gotten some things right. Some people on these forums are adverse to anything being suggested to improve the enjoyment of the game.

There's nothing wrong with it until people get fixated on those ideas and start throwing tantrums coz other people want something different, however I would rather see ED fail completely by being innovative and original than see it ruin the franchise and throw away it's heritage to churn out yet another clone that I wouldn't bother playing.

You know why all the "proPvP" polls on here have consistently failed? You know ED's kickstarter set records DESPITE it being very much a PvE game? You know why it keeps on having so many players both throughout the alphas/betas and since release DESPITE dire warnings of doom from the ProPvP crowd? Because despite what they think about them being the "chosen ones" there is a HUGE untapped market of people who WANT to play online but DON'T want to play PvP.

It shows up in all the polls. It shows up in every thread about PvP or piracy or comparisons to Eve or demand for guilds. It shows up every time a proPvPer gets frustrated and feels picked on and starts calling people "carebears" or "space truckers" because there's so much resistance here and so little support for their "traditional MMO" views. These are the quiet majority that want to play online but DON'T want to exclusivley shoot everyone or be someone else's target, and ED is the first MMO to really cater to this market in a meaningful way (I don't mean having a second character in WoW who's a crafter which usually is run off a script either). It's not ONLY the "grumpy old men who want to relive the games of their youth" (another slur used to try to silence dissent), it's female players, it's nerds, it's people who LIKE driving space trucks, it's people who WANT to explore... these people are vastly outnumbering those who only want PvP which is why those people are getting so upset now. Yes it's true, combat has dominated MMO's historically but that's only because it's EASY. Having a multiplayer game that's about anything BUT pew pew takes a lot more effort and a lot more computer power and really is only now becoming possible to do well.

 

[TheAncientOne]

There's nothing wrong with it until people get fixated on those ideas and start throwing tantrums coz other people want something different, however I would rather see ED fail completely by being innovative and original than see it ruin the franchise and throw away it's heritage to churn out yet another clone that I wouldn't bother playing.

You know why all the "proPvP" polls on here have consistently failed? You know ED's kickstarter set records DESPITE it being very much a PvE game? You know why it keeps on having so many players both throughout the alphas/betas and since release DESPITE dire warnings of doom from the ProPvP crowd? Because despite what they think about them being the "chosen ones" there is a HUGE untapped market of people who WANT to play online but DON'T want to play PvP.

It shows up in all the polls. It shows up in every thread about PvP or piracy or comparisons to Eve or demand for guilds. It shows up every time a proPvPer gets frustrated and feels picked on and starts calling people "carebears" or "space truckers" because there's so much resistance here and so little support for their "traditional MMO" views. These are the quiet majority that want to play online but DON'T want to exclusivley shoot everyone or be someone else's target, and ED is the first MMO to really cater to this market in a meaningful way (I don't mean having a second character in WoW who's a crafter which usually is run off a script either). It's not ONLY the "grumpy old men who want to relive the games of their youth" (another slur used to try to silence dissent), it's female players, it's nerds, it's people who LIKE driving space trucks, it's people who WANT to explore... these people are vastly outnumbering those who only want PvP which is why those people are getting so upset now. Yes it's true, combat has dominated MMO's historically but that's only because it's EASY. Having a multiplayer game that's about anything BUT pew pew takes a lot more effort and a lot more computer power and really is only now becoming possible to do well.

+1 I posted my reply on the other thread that has the Poll but giving you props.

 

[Sandmann]

+1 I posted my reply on the other thread that has the Poll but giving you props.

Well thank you much.

 

[Zplintz]

Solo, Open and any other sized groups and griefing are not an issue for me. Recent polls seem to show the vast majority of players or at least those that bothered to vote, don't have a problem with the current system (ie don't feel they have been a victim of griefing or that being able to switch between open and any size group freely is unfair).

I am of the opinion that a small number of people who do have issues spend a great deal of effort trying to convince others that they should have a problem with it too.

I am fine with it the way it is.

 

[Zanten]

Has *anyone*, *ever*, tried to control how you play.... no, because no-one really can...

What we are really saying I think is that we would very much like more people to give 'open' a chanve and play in the multiplayer game to give that a bit more exitement and diversity and give the MMO Universe
a fighting chance... I dont think groups like mobius are helping the game at all.

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Pirates gravitate towards anarchy and lawlessness, just avoid those systems....

The thing is, removing solo mode isn't going to make the Solo players suddenly multiplayer fans, because the people who don't want to interact with other players will continue not to interact with other players. The difference is that instead of using Solo mode, they'll just set up shop somewhere that is distant enough to keep the odds of another player ever finding them at a minimum. A friend wanted to find the system I was in, reach it from his location; the gap was roughly a hundred and thirty light years, and it occurred to me when he zoomed out to look at the full route he'd have to take that it would be INCREDIBLY easy for him to completely miss me. And I don't even think I'm near the edge of occupied space. The further from the 'core' one gets, the less likely it is you'll find someone who just quietly shuttles between two systems. And let's say you DO find a player who doesn't want to interact... either he politely says 'good day' and you leave, or you stick around to bug him, and he just moves another hundred light years or so away and you start all over again. You gain very little in terms of player interaction, but he ends up losing a potentially lucrative trading route, and feels irritated with a game that pretty much threw him into this community he doesn't want, increasing the chance he'll stop playing, and by extension stop buying any expansions or other things that help fund further development.

I mentioned this in another thread, but let's say Solo mode IS removed, but with the size of the universe, all the Solo players find corners so isolated, multiplayer-centric folks like yourself have issues even finding them, at least without spending perhaps hours searching systems and reading traffic reports and squatting in supercruise hoping someone appears. Will a cry then go up to make it easier to track other players? To find if someone is within five jumps of you, or another measure that makes the task of finding a player hiding in the middle of nowhere space easier and quicker? Will running cargo in a system three hundred light years away be considered 'Cheating' in the same way Solo mode is called, because the odds of another player interrupting you are incredibly tiny? If the goal in removing Solo is to make the game more multiplayer-centric, what happens when the more solitary players inevitably find ways around this, and remain separate from the community?

Setting up separate save files, at this point, would just draw a line in the sand; players who lean more towards Solo, but enjoy dabbling in open, like myself, will likely just keep their 'main' account on Solo, doing all major trading and such there, and maybe have a secondary character in Open that's a bounty hunter, or runs cargo in a cheap Hauler, or something else with a low death penalty, turning it into a server with plenty of wolves, but few sheep because the only dedicated traders are going to be those with a more multiplayer-centric viewpoint, who play the game solely FOR the multiplayer aspects. Part of trading in Open, for me, is the excitement of possibly being attacked by a player, BUT tempered with the knowledge that if the worse should happen and I find a jackass who decides to squat in my system and make me his perpetual toy, (likely because he can't actually find any other players in the region,) I can move to Solo before my bank account flatlines from repairs and lost cargo. I'll never run from an immediate fight that way, but it at least lets me avoid having my entire game turn into 'Avoid The Jerk.' Heck, after I have my Imperial Clipper, I'm actually thinking of buying a T6, loading it up with semi-valuable cargo, and making runs in more occupied space. Pirates can have their shot, I can have my excitement, but the losses of losing my ship and cargo are easily recouped, so those three and a half minutes of pirating fun aren't at the cost of hours of trading grind. If the Solo file were separate, I wouldn't have that option, and honestly wouldn't bother grinding trade in Open, let alone in more heavily populated territory. I'd just buy a Viper and run around looking for pirates to blow up. xP

 

[Robert Maynard]

But there is nothing wrong with borrowing ideas from other space games which after years of perfecting and making mistakes have gotten some things right. Some people on these forums are adverse to anything being suggested to improve the enjoyment of the game.

Where does the line get drawn once the "borrowing" (copying) from other games starts? Eventually the game is not the game that players backed. Some of the more commonly demanded "borrowings" include corporations, crafting, drone fleets, guilds, purely player driven economy, etc. - if Frontier had wanted to include these features in the game then they would have pitched the game with them.

 

[bassman]

Ok then. So why, if the PvP guys want to PvP why do they not organise a huge PvP group which they can dip in and out of at will? It seems the perfect solution but whenever it is mentioned everybody goes very quiet.

I dont want to be dipping in and out of some spuedo battle arena in space, I want to play the game. Just because I like PvP doesnt meant I want a fight to break out every time I meet another CMDR.

 

[Ogidch]

Yep, good idea and also makes any encounter unpredictable...is that an AI or just someone who doesn't know their left from their right!