[OOC] This Is Literally Me Just Begging At This Point

I crave roleplay.
I have engaged in meaningful roleplay precisely once since starting Elite. This small event prompted me to flesh out my Commander a bit, work out some motivations and beliefs, and eventually come up with someone I liked.
But that was it. There is no more. And the brief, incidental snippets of (invariably OOC) chatter ingame are hardly enough to get the creative juices flowing.

Is anyone interested in some kind of roleplay activity? I'm not joking or anything, I'm really this desperate.

Disclaimer: my CMDR is a spoiled rich brat whose sole virtue is having a strong moral compass. If her extreme obnoxiousness causes your own character to kill her, I accept only partial responsibility.
 
I have engaged in meaningful roleplay precisely once since starting Elite. This small event prompted me to flesh out my Commander a bit, work out some motivations and beliefs, and eventually come up with someone I liked.
But that was it. There is no more. And the brief, incidental snippets of (invariably OOC) chatter ingame are hardly enough to get the creative juices flowing.
Have you considered writing logs, or narrative vignettes?

I'm not sure I'd still be playing Elite without RP and a character narrative that's been going for about three years.

I have three--- well, mostly two characters on one account. Each has their ship/s, avatar (obviously), ship naming conventions, general colour tone bias (re ship skins, flightsuits), and playing style via preferred or specialist roles (my main, seen in my profile pic, is mostly a Winters/Fed loyalist explorer, the second is a recently ex-Alliance navy pilot considering their life choices, and the third is a veteran smuggler and mostly pro-Alliance information broker/spy-on-the-side).

As an example of how it all works; my main character wanted access to a certain Engineer (the Dweller), but didn't have the contacts or confidence to start pursuing the conditions for the invite. That's the in-game goal/motivation, and so I created the old smuggler as a link to the black markets. That constitutes character development as gameplay; I got to fly a new ship, and tried new activities in the game.

When the two characters crossed path, I simply wrote a vignette of the meeting. Ever since then, I've balanced in-game goals and activities with sometimes writing scenes to forward interactions and develop character, ergo the ongoing 'story' that I accidentally started when I pondered why my character first wanted to gain access to Sol and visit Earth.

I've never been one for in-character interactions in games, but I've always RP'd characters in RPG's, and used to write vignettes at pivotal points in a playthrough for Morrowind. To me Elite is one big brilliant-yet-terrible role-player. I mix first and third-person between character segments, which mixes things up tonally/stylistically, and let's me explore my own character in very different ways (how she perceives herself and her goals, and how others perceive her).

Elite can inspire some wackily inventive creativity, but it does require effort (to the extent - when I'm actually writing something - I will either play the game for a session, or write instead). That said, written vignettes don't need to be very long or complex at all. Writing things down and actually depicting the mundanity of these people's lives helps get you into character so much better than just trying to express it in-game, or just writing it out in a bio. All three - bio, in-game actions, written scenes - can inform and strengthen each other.
 
Have you considered writing logs, or narrative vignettes?

I'm not sure I'd still be playing Elite without RP and a character narrative that's been going for about three years.

I have three--- well, mostly two characters on one account. Each has their ship/s, avatar (obviously), ship naming conventions, general colour tone bias (re ship skins, flightsuits), and playing style via preferred or specialist roles (my main, seen in my profile pic, is mostly a Winters/Fed loyalist explorer, the second is a recently ex-Alliance navy pilot considering their life choices, and the third is a veteran smuggler and mostly pro-Alliance information broker/spy-on-the-side).

As an example of how it all works; my main character wanted access to a certain Engineer (the Dweller), but didn't have the contacts or confidence to start pursuing the conditions for the invite. That's the in-game goal/motivation, and so I created the old smuggler as a link to the black markets. That constitutes character development as gameplay; I got to fly a new ship, and tried new activities in the game.

When the two characters crossed path, I simply wrote a vignette of the meeting. Ever since then, I've balanced in-game goals and activities with sometimes writing scenes to forward interactions and develop character, ergo the ongoing 'story' that I accidentally started when I pondered why my character first wanted to gain access to Sol and visit Earth.

I've never been one for in-character interactions in games, but I've always RP'd characters in RPG's, and used to write vignettes at pivotal points in a playthrough for Morrowind. To me Elite is one big brilliant-yet-terrible role-player. I mix first and third-person between character segments, which mixes things up tonally/stylistically, and let's me explore my own character in very different ways (how she perceives herself and her goals, and how others perceive her).

Elite can inspire some wackily inventive creativity, but it does require effort (to the extent - when I'm actually writing something - I will either play the game for a session, or write instead). That said, written vignettes don't need to be very long or complex at all. Writing things down and actually depicting the mundanity of these people's lives helps get you into character so much better than just trying to express it in-game, or just writing it out in a bio. All three - bio, in-game actions, written scenes - can inform and strengthen each other.

I do write short snippets about Viola's daily time-wasting, but the only thing it seems to bring out is how cripplingly alone she feels, even surrounded by people. I can't really play the game in-character without a) hating all the work involved in spaceflight and b) being incredibly clingy when people actually interact with me (neither of which really enhance the experience for anyone involved).
It just feels a bit strange to then get into creating more people just to serve that personal narrative when there's a whole galaxy of people with at least one major trait in common with her.

Still, I guess I'll try writing some more. I'm just not really sure what else there is to write when the entire point is to showcase how little she actually does.
 
She sounds like quite a handful.I mean,on the one hand stubborn and spoilt,on the other,an altruistic white knight,righting wrongs and fighting injustice in the name of 'the little people'.Would that be an accurate description?
 
She sounds like quite a handful.I mean,on the one hand stubborn and spoilt,on the other,an altruistic white knight,righting wrongs and fighting injustice in the name of 'the little people'.Would that be an accurate description?

Not quite.
One of those things (stubborn, spoiled, somewhat pleasant) is what she actually is, whereas the other (altruistic white knight) is what she wants to be (and let's be fair, already is compared to a lot of CMDRs). The cause is a hybrid of being raised isolated from most of the galaxy, being young, reading too much, and having a crippling desire to be liked - her idea of doing something big and impressive is being a really good person, rather than being super rich (as she's already got that back home) or being a mega criminal (because she doesn't much approve of criminals).

The big reason she's trying to make such a big deal out of it is so her parents will accept her back home after she basically left in a giant fit of the sulks. They already would, but she's still in the 'o h n o w h a t d o i d o' phase of making a giant mistake and having to go along with it.

She's still very much in the formative years of her life, and this period of being a rich space hobo has brought several changes already. AMNI only came to be as a concept after she brushed with the less savoury elements and realised just how awful everything was. It's a random decision she made that may or may not pan out.

TL;DR - Yes, but only in the same way any average teenager who says 'no more wars' is an altruist. She just has the means to act on her whims and rapidly-changing political opinions.

In a way you are already role-playing if you feel like that cause that's how I imagine would feel when sitting in a spaceship hundreds or even thousands of lightyears away from home. Would certainly not expect some sort of party time in this role...

Currently I'm playing a game (Pathfinder: Kingmaker) that's even closer to classic pen and paper RPGs than even the excellent titles Pillars of Eternity or Divinity Original Sin II. This game, albeit technically not on par with modern titles (that's a really old-school one, unfortunately pretty buggy), shockingly remains me what's wrong with modern games in general: Developers just being shy of building strong consequences into their games. This and that true roleplaying requires decent GMs that in absent of a human one needs to be represented in form of strong rules.

All this plethora of potions, scrolls and magic items in e.g. DOSII are mostly fluff and optional convenient items at best. Whereas in Pathfinder all these things make me feel as if they are based on an ancient old and slowly grown up RPG system. Everything matters here and you can't expect to survive if you just play this game with the all too common optionality in mind - and that already on medium difficulty. That's why many people consider this game heavily unbalanced, where in reality it's much closer to a well designed and challenging balance compared to most modern tourist-like pseudo RPGs with a guaranteed "I win" ticket that want to entertain you in the first place.

Despite what I've said initially, I think true roleplaying requires more than making things up in our mind. It needs some creative and experienced GM instead, either in person or in form of a helping hand during the design process. All I can say with confidence is that such a person has never been invited in ED's early design stages. But to be fair I also think that Elite, no matter what version, never wanted to be a RPG in the first place. If you want to make it one you very much depend on your own imagination and maybe some friends who share a similar mindset. But we can barely blame the game for something that it never wanted to be.

Isn't Pathfinder literally a tabletop game? Like, modded 3.5e DnD?
 
So is the 'love' angle a separate quest? And when you say 'how awful things are', could you expand a bit on that?
Oh, the Thargoid-love stuff is just my personal forum gimmick. Viola hates the alien bugs as much as the next person, although she likes the idea of stealing all their stuff like we've been doing to the Guardians.

And I mean, everything's gritty in the Eliteverse. Slavery, lots of war and killing, and half the CMDRs I see are like 'ya I do a lot of murders and slaves' or 'yeah I hate federals/imperials/alliance/independents'. It's like real life, yes, but the playerbase seems to have this pounding obsession with stuff being either dark and gritty, or a series of blatant references to old sci-fi novels.
Viola was not only raised isolated from the troubles plaguing the galaxy, she was raised on a questionably-legal mansion-complex on a natural ELW in an independent system - while she's undoubtedly not particularly pleasant due to her obsession with luxury and living it up, she's also remarkably unbiased because she doesn't really have a good grasp of what her position (within the local feudal faction, that is) actually means or why she has it. While she likes to brag about everything her wealth can buy, she doesn't really care much about social status - in her eyes, everyone should be able to live like she does.

TL;DR again: pretty much every negative aspect of life is awful to Viola because she never really knew anything other than total luxury, but it's only exacerbated by seeing slavery and war and stuff. Even if it wasn't that widespread, she'd still be irritated by the fact it was even allowed to exist, because 'people know better than that'. She's got an arrogant, somewhat thoughtless approach to an understandable, 'altruistic' viewpoint.
 
Despite what I've said initially, I think true roleplaying requires more than making things up in our mind. It needs some creative and experienced GM instead, either in person or in form of a helping hand during the design process.
Can there be such a thing as 'true' RP'ing, when it exists on such a spectrum, and there are so many subjective preferences involved? I dislike pen'n'paper or the inclusion of a GM, as for me RP'ing in a videogame is about telling an adaptive story - and an adaptive story of my choosing, at that.
All I can say with confidence is that such a person has never been invited in ED's early design stages. But to be fair I also think that Elite, no matter what version, never wanted to be a RPG in the first place. If you want to make it one you very much depend on your own imagination and maybe some friends who share a similar mindset. But we can barely blame the game for something that it never wanted to be.
That's a fair observation, hence why I call it a great-and-terrible RP'er; it has total freedom, for one, which is good. But almost zero consequences or tools to really express a defined, in-game RP. Which is obviously very bad... for a role-player.

So re something you said earlier;
...that in absent of a human one needs to be represented in form of strong rules.
Depending on what you specifically mean by strong rules (I'd describe that as defined boundaries/limitations), yes - that's Elite's problem. 'Thing in a game' constitute tools with which to construct and express an RP, and it's on that count which Elite - being such a narrowly focused game to actually play - suffers.

In-game, RP has to be expressed through; superpower loyalties, factions, role/career, ships flown, activities. With no form of 'karma' system there is no real sense of morality of any kind present in the game. A mission may require you to assassinate an innocent, or you might blow up a Beluga on a whim. At worst you get a monetary fine, which for almost all players in the game will be inconsequential. What's the consequence of the fine? Or murder in Elite? A few percent drop on a progress bar... That's not much to go on.

So it's a game that, fundamentally, doesn't contextualise anything via mechanics in a way that bolsters role-playing. Nothing matters.

And yet whilst I'd never actually design a game to be like that, if I wanted it to be an RPG, it still represents an opportunity. There was a time, several years ago, that a sweetroll in Skyrim came to have narrative value... Bethesda never intended that, and nor did I, consciously. It formed a small part of a pivot in a character's progression.

Point being; if nothing has context, then everything can have context - provided the player is willing to project it, and, ideally, explore it and set it in stone in some other form (a vignette/ongoing story, an RP exchange on something like Inara, etc). And this is where I feel running more than one character on an account (or multiples, if someone's inclined. microtransactions don't track across accounts, so FDev ain't getting more money from me for flippin' ship idents and nameplates... ) comes in handy; each character can be distinct in terms of looks, obviously, but also the ships they alone fly, the jobs they take, the parts of the bubble they work in, their flying style, the builds they prefer, hell, even the configurations of decals/rank badges on ship hulls, and so on.

Pick a home system with a home station, and elaborate on how the character may've lived and worked there, and suddenly those copy-paste stations and inert atmospheric worlds with their (admittedly very pretty) placeholder assets have more nuance, context, and meaning.

The characters we create would've had a lifetime's worth of familiarity with various planets, stations, factions, systems, and so on. None of that can be explored or represented in the game itself, and so an RP'er needs to create.

I understand the argument against what amounts to pure creativity and self-imposed limits, but something like Elite's total lack of context and boundaries does at least present an opportunity - certainly for people who get a kick out of writing. Elite is conceptually a terrible role-playing game, and yet my character's endured for three whole years and the story's only getting more interesting. I've never been able to maintain other creations in 'actual' RPG's... So for me, at least, Elite's a curiously brilliant RP'er.
I do write short snippets about Viola's daily time-wasting, but the only thing it seems to bring out is how cripplingly alone she feels, even surrounded by people. / Still, I guess I'll try writing some more. I'm just not really sure what else there is to write when the entire point is to showcase how little she actually does.
Then might the character herself be a bit of an issue?

A good character is not the same as a good RP. The latter usually leads to the former, but not always the other way around, by any means. If an RP isn't fun/satisfying, and doesn't naturally lead to in-game/in-universe activities, stories, hijinks, etc, then the problem isn't with the game/universe, it's surely with our creation.

That's partly why I created two other characters, to not be limited by in-game actions, yet never break RP (the only thing I may never get around to is flying Empire ships).
 
Then might the character herself be a bit of an issue?

A good character is not the same as a good RP. The latter usually leads to the former, but not always the other way around, by any means. If an RP isn't fun/satisfying, and doesn't naturally lead to in-game/in-universe activities, stories, hijinks, etc, then the problem isn't with the game/universe, it's surely with our creation.

That's partly why I created two other characters, to not be limited by in-game actions, yet never break RP (the only thing I may never get around to is flying Empire ships).

Oh, I have fun anyway. Much like me, Viola just does random stuff because it's fun and she has no concept of risk because she always survives ship destruction.
 
It needs some creative and experienced GM instead, either in person or in form of a helping hand during the design process.
I'd disagree here. I've used to be the GM and player in a lot of playergroups in pnp and I'd say the world building doesn't really matter if the group connects well. This is possible in Elite as in every other online game.

[...]her idea of doing something big and impressive is being a really good person, rather than being super rich (as she's already got that back home) or being a mega criminal (because she doesn't much approve of criminals).
That sounds like a character destined to fail gloriously and I don't mean that as a critique. Some of the most memorable rp experiences I had were about failure and even my current CMDR is essentially a fallen idealist still somewhat clinging to the idealism (he started his career with the fed navy and fought against imperial slavers and dictatorships), which he then left behind, while still following the trajectory set by it. He is currently active as a privateer in the Fed/Imp borders and has at least avoided to fall into the murderhobo mentality, by not once killing the imperial traders which he robbed. While this probably falls under the usual gritty theme you mentioned it also offers a lot of opportunity to interact with players. In my purely anecdotal in-game experience pirates (not gankers) are actually one of the most active roleplaying sets of players in-game. Although these are often individuals, rather than groups.
 
IIRC the various definitions of roleplaying doesn't exclude the possibility of playing yourself. That's a common misconception often even heard by hardcore old school players. Some of which have impressively mastered the art of playing a totally foreign person - but that's not a compelling prerequisite for roleplaying IMO. But even if I'm wrong: it's just a term, who cares...
Well, even my holome is at least an approximation of the mug looking at me in the mirror.
 
That sounds like a character destined to fail gloriously and I don't mean that as a critique. Some of the most memorable rp experiences I had were about failure and even my current CMDR is essentially a fallen idealist still somewhat clinging to the idealism (he started his career with the fed navy and fought against imperial slavers and dictatorships), which he then left behind, while still following the trajectory set by it. He is currently active as a privateer in the Fed/Imp borders and has at least avoided to fall into the murderhobo mentality, by not once killing the imperial traders which he robbed. While this probably falls under the usual gritty theme you mentioned it also offers a lot of opportunity to interact with players.

Oh, I totally agree. On pretty much everything you've said (the one group I ever had an RP experience with was on the wrong side of the law.).

I think the downfall of my character won't be her beliefs - I'm pretty sure nobody's going to convince her that murder and slavery are really okay, at least in the timeframe I'll be playing Elite - but rather her lack of allegiances. With no higher power or sense of 'nationalism' pushing her into doing anything, she's pretty much just propelling herself with a mix of boredom and youthful vigor that will eventually run out.

The real issue here is lack of interaction with anyone, which is half of the reason I'm begging for in-character interaction. Coming from a friendless background into a galaxy where the only positive reinforcement you receive is basically form letters from faceless political groups really doesn't do wonders for a person.
 
With no higher power or sense of 'nationalism' pushing her into doing anything, she's pretty much just propelling herself with a mix of boredom and youthful vigor that will eventually run out.
While I actually like the strong nihilism of Elite from a storytelling perspective, I see the problem. If playing such a character I would try to find a good breaking point of the character, who seems likely to push ever further, as boredom likely is hard on her heels. A "breakdown" might offer the additional storytelling motivation to go beyond the loss of vigor and a chance of developing the character further. Because I do see a problem with integrating your character into the mostly criminal or war-dominated narratives many CMDRs have. Which isn't meant as a critique, as in other situations I prefer unusual characters to the simple heroes. Perhaps the death of a crewman/woman might help to integrate into the conflicts or struggles of the bubble or beyond.
 
There's no other game than ED where I'm so much not roleplaying. My CMDR is me, I could not play him as anyone else.
So long as a player's enjoying how they spend their time, there is no right or wrong way. I just couldn't put up with Elite's absolute narrative void and lack of context/consequences without a strong RP to make things mean something more than just a videogame player's whim.
Without going into detail of your long post (I agree with a lot of what you said) my wording was indeed debatable to say the least. What I had in mind with 'true' RP'ing was rather in the lines of "true to the origins of RP'ing". Original D&D 3.5 rules are the polar opposite of ED's silly optionalism.
Obvious point is obvious, but we are talking RP'ing the context of an interactive medium, so I'm not sure how much value comparisons to full on P&P have.

And like I said, whilst I'd have never designed a game with Elite's, er, 'structure' and indifference to context/consequences, that void of agency can be empowering. RP'ing in games tends to always have compromises and foibles, so a player just has to adapt. I've personally found Elite a more satisfying and rewarding role-player than Pillars Of Eternity, for example.
This page also demonstrates how strong rule sets don't necessarily exclude lots of options. But it requires strong consequences and developers who accept the responsibility for the balance of such a complex rule set. While Frontier is pretty good in avoiding both.
Only skimmed that, as I've no knowledge of either ruleset.

As for FDev? Yes, they made a pretty terrible RPG [because, as has been pointed out, they weren't really intending to make one], but I do still think the player can use its fairly lazy, open-ended design to their advantage, especially if they do frame what they do in the game with interactions on Inara or their own written pieces.
 
So long as a player's enjoying how they spend their time, there is no right or wrong way. I just couldn't put up with Elite's absolute narrative void and lack of context/consequences without a strong RP to make things mean something more than just a videogame player's whim.
Obvious point is obvious, but we are talking RP'ing the context of an interactive medium, so I'm not sure how much value comparisons to full on P&P have.

And like I said, whilst I'd have never designed a game with Elite's, er, 'structure' and indifference to context/consequences, that void of agency can be empowering. RP'ing in games tends to always have compromises and foibles, so a player just has to adapt. I've personally found Elite a more satisfying and rewarding role-player than Pillars Of Eternity, for example.
Only skimmed that, as I've no knowledge of either ruleset.

As for FDev? Yes, they made a pretty terrible RPG [because, as has been pointed out, they weren't really intending to make one], but I do still think the player can use its fairly lazy, open-ended design to their advantage, especially if they do frame what they do in the game with interactions on Inara or their own written pieces.

RP is very easy in a sandbox game because there are few restrictions and far-reaching consequences, allowing someone to act in-character in a great variety of ways.
It's also easy in an RPG because the game is designed for player choice to have consequences.

It's a depth/breadth argument, I'd say.
 
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