Open-Only in PP2.0?

[Robert Maynard]

Did 'the not insignificant subset' object when the original PP pirate rewards were added? Did they even know they were there to begin with? By your logic if its already in you seemingly can't complain as its 'part of the design'.

No - but then neither were those rewards constructed in a way that players actually had to contest the encounter, nor were they restricted to Open. Player collusion, likely in both multi-player game modes, resulted in their change.

So what about hauling in Open for PP? Risk more, get x4 back. Seems to scale well given what you are doing.

What about hauling in Open? It enjoys the same reward in all three game mdoes, unless in a Wing where it enjoys the same rewards in two of the three game modes.

 

[Rubbernuke]

No - but then neither were those rewards constructed in a way that players actually had to contest the encounter, nor were they restricted to Open. Player collusion, likely in both multi-player game modes, resulted in their change.

Players very much had to contest the encounter NPCs by comparison had virtually none, and because NPCs were vanishingly rare had much less available. It was also funny that yet again PG was the mode of choice for collusion, given that in a few cases people were blown up doing it in Open. So if any PP mode needs reigning in, its PG ironically.

FD could have done what they did with 202x era updates and actually fix what they sent out, instead leaving it to die.

What about hauling in Open? It enjoys the same reward in all three game mdoes, unless in a Wing where it enjoys the same rewards in two of the three game modes.

Given that in Open haulers are targets (like everyone else is) you'd think that to turbo boost your efforts you team up, and that you can mix and match haulers with escorts.. you know, complex teamwork when other rivals are about? Or that you can do the full bonus but have the risk not present in PG- an actual bonus with counters for Open PP.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Players very much had to contest the encounter NPCs by comparison had virtually none, and because NPCs were vanishingly rare had much less available. It was also funny that yet again PG was the mode of choice for collusion, given that in a few cases people were blown up doing it in Open. So if any PP mode needs reigning in, its PG ironically.

FD could have done what they did with 202x era updates and actually fix what they sent out, instead leaving it to die.

All that says is that PvP isn't as popular as some want it to be - and they can't force others to either like it nor engage in it.

Post release Powerplay seemed to get the level of development attention that was warranted by player engagement (given Sandro's previous comments regarding challenges of assigning Dev time to less popular features). Noting that painting a target on ones ship for those pledged to other powers may have been one reason for is relative unpopularity then, which may also befall Powerplay 2.0.

Given that in Open haulers are targets (like everyone else is) you'd think that to turbo boost your efforts you team up, and that you can mix and match haulers with escorts.. you know, complex teamwork when other rivals are about? Or that you can do the full bonus but have the risk not present in PG- an actual bonus with counters for Open PP.

Whatever floats their boat - noting that their choice to play among others is theirs and theirs alone. The reward does not change just because they choose to play in Open.

 

[Rubbernuke]

All that says is that PvP isn't as popular as some want it to be - and they can't force others to either like it nor engage in it.

Post release Powerplay seemed to get the level of development attention that was warranted by player engagement (given Sandro's previous comments regarding challenges of assigning Dev time to less popular features). Noting that painting a target on ones ship for those pledged to other powers may have been one reason for is relative unpopularity then, which may also befall Powerplay 2.0.

Whatever floats their boat - noting that their choice to play among others is theirs and theirs alone. The reward does not change just because they choose to play in Open.

All that says is that PvP isn't as popular as some want it to be - and they can't force others to either like it nor engage in it.

Which is relevant how? We are talking about bonuses inside Open for PP to reward teamplay that FD themselves want.

Post release Powerplay seemed to get the level of development attention that was warranted by player engagement (given Sandro's previous comments regarding challenges of assigning Dev time to less popular features). Noting that painting a target on ones ship for those pledged to other powers may have been one reason for is relative unpopularity then, which may also befall Powerplay 2.0.

It got very little and everything was taking things away which says everything about how ready it was. In fact the only new things PP got were Consolidation votes and Yuri Grom, who had a PvP slanted unique module

Whatever floats their boat - noting that their choice to play among others is theirs and theirs alone. The reward does not change just because they choose to play in Open.

Why not? In games you get rewards for doing things that are more difficult or require more attention. This is no different, given that for a X4 uplift you could also wind up with nothing.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Which is relevant how? We are talking about bonuses inside Open for PP to reward teamplay that FD themselves want.

Teamplay or PvP? Noting that teams don't need to play in Open.

It got very little and everything was taking things away which says everything about how ready it was. In fact the only new things PP got were Consolidation votes and Yuri Grom, who had a PvP slanted unique module

Was the player group behind Grom not accused of not playing in Open? If so then the irony is real.

Why not? In games you get rewards for doing things that are more difficult or require more attention. This is no different, given that for a X4 uplift you could also wind up with nothing.

Why? When the activity that some want to be rewarded is an optional extra that is not a requirement of any game feature?

.... and it seems that the "Open bonus" under discussion is now back at insulting levels, i.e. +4X, i.e. five times the reward for the other two game modes.

 

[WhiteHaulerMan]

Was the player group behind Grom not accused of not playing in Open? If so then the irony is real.

You're mixing a few thing up timeline wise I believe.

IIRC: A lot of folk on the forums (in the English-speaking areas) accused EG Gamers (or whatever their name is, I cannot remember) of being 'Russian Bot runners, hackers and exploiters' because they were surprised when the largest Russian-speaking gaming group had much greater numbers than most of the forum 'preferred' predominately English-speaking player groups who were competing against and steamrolled them their way to victory in 'The Dangerous Games' (which is how we ended up with Grom as a NPC). Also similar unsubstantiated accusations were lobbed at UGC (Unified German Commanders) if memory serves, and accepted willingly by the 'preferred gaming groups' in a way that I for one, felt was somewhat ignorant and racist.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

In the wider game I agree.

But it seems too that a lot of people forget Powerplay is not the wider game, with the absence of opposition being a benefit. Its why Open Only was mooted for V1, because NPCs did nothing, and that hopefully in V2 NPCs are the same to at least approximate opposition.

You're still talking throughout this thread about wanting the challenge of other players or harder NPCs. In open, you get that, so no open only proponent can complain about facing stronger opponents.

You can try to argue unfairness from other positions, but not from that point of view.

 

[WhiteHaulerMan]

You're still talking throughout this thread about wanting the challenge of other players or harder NPCs. In open, you get that, so no open only proponent can complain about facing stronger opponents.

You can try to argue unfairness from other positions, but not from that point of view.

I think to be succint, what Rubbernuke is referring to is that in a element of the game which is PvP/TvT, all players need to face the exact same level of risk when conducting actions relating to that, because otherwise you end up in a situation where the Solo mode AFK Turretboat and Netflix-and-haul Merit shipper king, leading to (i) a feeling of unable to make an impact for the 'Joe Normal' player who doesn't leave their PC turned on parked in a CZ while they go to work and (ii) a lack of need to interact with/engage with those players who are supposed to be your teammates or potential rivals.

 

[Rubbernuke]

You're still talking throughout this thread about wanting the challenge of other players or harder NPCs. In open, you get that, so no open only proponent can complain about facing stronger opponents.

You can try to argue unfairness from other positions, but not from that point of view.

Less opposition = faster work (leading to grind races)

I'm also not going for OO in PP2- the circumstances called for it in PP1 but not here where I feel some form of weighting would be better. PP1 the NPCs did nothing and that imapcted on how representative each mode is. If the disparity was less then you'd need less equalizing.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Teamplay or PvP? Noting that teams don't need to play in Open.

You know what I mean, Robert.

Was the player group behind Grom not accused of not playing in Open? If so then the irony is real.

It was not lost on many.

Why? When the activity that some want to be rewarded is an optional extra that is not a requirement of any game feature? .... and it seems that the "Open bonus" under discussion is now back at insulting levels, i.e. +4X, i.e. five times the reward for the other two game modes.

'insulting levels'- this is the same level that wing bonuses are held at now- the only change I'm debating is reducing PG by half given its not in a mode thats explicitly adversarial in Powerplay. How do you make out five times?

 

[Kyokushin]

PowerPlay should be Open-Only. At now - today - all activities are result of endless NPC grind. No one can disturb what you're doing in system by other way than stronger grind.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I think to be succint, what Rubbernuke is referring to is that in a element of the game which is PvP/TvT, all players need to face the exact same level of risk when conducting actions relating to that, because otherwise you end up in a situation where the Solo mode AFK Turretboat and Netflix-and-haul Merit shipper king, leading to (i) a feeling of unable to make an impact for the 'Joe Normal' player who doesn't leave their PC turned on parked in a CZ while they go to work and (ii) a lack of need to interact with/engage with those players who are supposed to be your teammates or potential rivals.

Except you have to look at who is doing the arguing, its those who would be facing less risk. Its an argument made in bad faith. Now, if it was haulers making the argument, i'd say its a valid point (and i do appreciate you, with your name, making the argument), but look at the Kumo crew members who are doing the arguing. They won't face increased risk, just more targets, while they sit as safe as someone in an AFK turretboat in solo.

Speaking of AFK turretboats, that is an issue FD do need to look at, and its an issue of their own creation they enabled with HP inflation, something i've criticized myself on many an occasion.

As for netflix and haul (not merits with PP2), what's the problem? People can do that if they want and since they will be affecting PP2 via regular activities, based on what we understand, its basically a call to say that people who are pledged have to always play in open. They would have to be blocked from choosing PG or solo, because it sounds like almost any sort of activity can affect PP2 if you are pledged.

This would make the basis of this thread have to be "Open only if you are pledged", meaning any time you are not actively pushing PP activities, let's say you go out exploring for a while or just want to chill doing some missions for credits or materials gathering, you'd have to either do it in open or unpledge to get access to PG/solo again, thereby losing your rank and all bonuses.

That's a tough sell.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

PowerPlay should be Open-Only. At now - today - all activities are result of endless NPC grind. No one can disturb what you're doing in system by other way than stronger grind.

People with more time will still win by grinding more, even in an open only environment.

People opposing them will have to grind more to compensate. They can try and stop them with PvP, it would be an option, but that won't help their power, at best they achieve a null result while doing that, at worse someone gets past them and they lose ground.

Like with BGS or PP1, there will be always those who have an outsized impact on the results due to the amount of time they play, the hardcore grinders. Getting killed won't stop them, it will barely slow them down, they'll just open another can of Mountain Dew and carry on grinding.

 

[WhiteHaulerMan]

Except you have to look at who is doing the arguing, its those who would be facing less risk. Its an argument made in bad faith. Now, if it was haulers making the argument, i'd say its a valid point (and i do appreciate you, with your name, making the argument), but look at the Kumo crew members who are doing the arguing. They won't face increased risk, just more targets, while they sit as safe as someone in an AFK turretboat in solo.

Respectfully, as a community I think we need to put down this 'griefer-fear' mantra some of us have adopted over the past decade plus. We're all getting on a bit now and its a little silly.

Those folk are mostly gone to pastures new, and if they do still play, rarely engage on the forums.

In this thread right now, those looking positively at the Open Only PP/Weighting are either (i) people who fly and haul in Open (like myself) or (ii) players who engage in powerplay as their primary interactions in Elite (including its hauling component), and wish to see PP2.0 learn from the mistakes of its first iteration and be a succesful engaging PvP (in the sense of strategic teamplay on a larger scale) environment, not "We are here to mine your salt"-types.

 

[Robert Maynard]

You know what I mean, Robert.

Not really - knowing that if Frontier mentioned Teamplay with reference to their game where no players need to engage in PvP it is implicit that that Teamplay could take place in either of the two multiplayer game modes (three if one owns Odyssey) - even if they were talking about Powerplay 2.0.

It was not lost on many.

Reinforcing then the point that Powerplay does not require players to play in Open....

'insulting levels'- this is the same level that wing bonuses are held at now- the only change I'm debating is reducing PG by half given its not in a mode thats explicitly adversarial in Powerplay.

It's the level of a reward for co-operative play, in the hope that that reward will be halfed in PGs. It was not stated that it was the Wing bonus therefore it was considered to be the level of participation award for just playing in Open.

How do you make out five times?

"X4 uplift" = "400% uplift" therefore total reward = base + uplift = 100% + 400% = 500%.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Respectfully, as a community I think we need to put down this 'griefer-fear' mantra some of us have adopted over the past decade plus. We're all getting on a bit now and its a little silly.

As is ascribing "fear" to a distaste for particular player actions that the game permits while at the same time making those players completely optional.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Respectfully, as a community I think we need to put down this 'griefer-fear' mantra some of us have adopted over the past decade plus. We're all getting on a bit now and its a little silly.

Those folk are mostly gone to pastures new, and if they do still play, rarely engage on the forums.

In this thread right now, those looking positively at the Open Only PP/Weighting are either (i) people who fly and haul in Open (like myself) or (ii) players who engage in powerplay as their primary interactions in Elite (including its hauling component), and wish to see PP2.0 learn from the mistakes of its first iteration and be a succesful engaging PvP (in the sense of strategic teamplay on a larger scale) environment, not "We are here to mine your salt"-types.

Respectfully, its not griefer fear i'm talking about. Its people who will be looking for PvP arguing for those not interested in PvP to be forced to face PvP. I don't accuse Rubbernuke or Rebel Yell of being griefers either. I like them both as people and I do think they make some good arguments, even as I make my counter arguments to theirs.

But let's face they facts, they (and you?) are interested in the PvP, even if they genuinely believe that making PP2 open only would be good for the game.

They want PvP engagements, they want a level playing field, but refuse to accept there is a level playing field. They just don't want the level playing field that exists, because that means giving up their PvP and "challenge" to play in PG/solo. So rather than they change how they play, everyone else must change how they play.

and be a succesful engaging PvP

They can have that, if they play in Open. Their choice. They can PvP all day long if they want with other like minded PvPers pledged to other powers. Assuming, like you say, they are not griefers wanting to gank traders, but really are looking for that challenge. Surely, if there are so many open only proponents, and not just combat people, but also haulers, and others, then there must be loads of people who will play in open regardless! So many people (alledgedly) support this after all!

 

[WhiteHaulerMan]

As is ascribing "fear" to a distaste for particular player actions that the game permits while at the same time making those players completely optional.

I'm using light-hearted and colourful language to try to emphasise the point some of us posting here now are in our 50's (tbc, I'm not, Im still a spring chicken). I'm ascribing the word 'fear' to it loosely, based on this weird underlying suggestion that a lot of these posts have, that anyone who is a proponent of Open, Weighting, or anything that isn't the Forum Consensus, has 'an ulterior motive'

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Just going to quote myself here because i'd like an answer from an open only proponent regarding this:

As for netflix and haul (not merits with PP2), what's the problem? People can do that if they want and since they will be affecting PP2 via regular activities, based on what we understand, its basically a call to say that people who are pledged have to always play in open. They would have to be blocked from choosing PG or solo, because it sounds like almost any sort of activity can affect PP2 if you are pledged.

This would make the basis of this thread have to be "Open only if you are pledged", meaning any time you are not actively pushing PP activities, let's say you go out exploring for a while or just want to chill doing some missions for credits or materials gathering, you'd have to either do it in open or unpledge to get access to PG/solo again, thereby losing your rank and all bonuses.

Isn't that what it will effectively mean for PP2 to be open only? If pledged, you have to be in open? If not, open only won't work for PP2, since how should the game determine when you have to be in open and when you can play in PG/solo?

 

[Rubbernuke]

Reinforcing then the point that Powerplay does not require players to play in Open....

Thats not the issue at hand, though. Its making the effort in each mode match the strategic gains. Open Only was a V1 suggestion because you had the situation where hardly anything went after you in two modes.

Not really - knowing that if Frontier mentioned Teamplay with reference to their game where no players need to engage in PvP it is implicit that that Teamplay could take place in either of the two multiplayer game modes (three if one owns Odyssey) - even if they were talking about Powerplay 2.0.

Teamplay in PP is you and chums undertaking a task. In Open in wings that means facing off against other teams undertaking tasks. Why do you think NAV harvesting was done in wings?

It's the level of a reward for co-operative play, in the hope that that reward will be halfed in PGs. It was not stated that it was the Wing bonus therefore it was considered to be the level of participation award for just playing in Open.

I stated wing bonus like a bazillion times, and explained the reasoning.