Open-Only in PP2.0?

The other thing that affects Open Only that I have not chimed in on yet is: Ganking/Griefing. Until Fdev comes up with a better way to 'deal' with it, the majority of the Elite playerbase has decided how to deal with it. Good Bye Open! and or massive blocklist Open, and or always fly your SLF in Open... cause most groups love it when you do that!

Fdev feel free to create a: Real Useful and Working Crime and Punishment system so Open Only can be used for something else besides a Gankers and Griefers paradise. It is truly a shame an entire game mode is shunned by so many due to in game murder hobos

PS My definition of Ganking/Griefing is making players go Boom for any reason outside of a mission, or powerplay target, or bounty

Why do I think cleaning up Open will help PP2.0? I believe alot of people will not play in Open, just to skip wasting time with the murder hobos known as the gankers/griefers. These same players may be fine taking their chances against other pp'ers, but not the wings of 4 murder hobos. Plenty of vids on YT and Twitch of the murder hobos in action, you just have to go look
 
PS My definition of Ganking/Griefing is making players go Boom for any reason outside of a mission, or powerplay target, or bounty

The catch is that the game doesn't warn you beforehand or explain afterwards if your ship qualified as someone else's mission objective.
All you see is a random player turn up, kill you and move on. Most players wouldn't explain the situation to you either, just kill and go.
 
Is this sarcasm or naivety?

Some PvP PPers will focus on the gameplay. Others will flock for the killing only.

Also, fleets of opposing sides in a contested system? You are aware this is ED right? You are aware of the networking issues that happen when you start getting too many players in an instance? Yes, you can get big player instances while out exploring, but for combat? All it takes is for someone to launch a SLF to cause lag or more than a handful of players to join up before the lag starts striking.
Indeed your right the p2p system we have in ED isn't stable or sufficient to host a pvp campaign for PP 2.0. And no I'm not naive I've posted about this very issue many times.
I'm kinda hoping they'll do something about it or it's just gonner bebad
 
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Ive been doing PP for 2 years, not as long as some folks but i have no interest in PvP or PP combat based activities at all.
I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that.

O7

Agreed, on both counts.

For me, PowerPlay is there to enhance my roleplaying, mostly PvE. In PP 1.0, the selection of PvE activities were so poor, I never bothered to intentionally earn merits, so I focused on BGS manipulation, which is 90% character driven, and 10% results driven. In PP 2.0, I'll be earning merits as a natural consequence of my roleplaying, which will again be 90% character driven, and 10% results driven.

I could care less about PvE combat, let alone PvP, though I hope that unlike PP 1.0 there'll be enough temptation for me to engage in both. But as long as the PvE is fun, never seeing another player again in the game, let alone having them be a part of the opposition, would be no great loss.
 
Fdev never said the modes would be equal, did they? They only said you could play the game in any mode and do what you wish. To each their own. And part of that choice is currently how it will affect the background simulation and your chosen power. Maybe Fdev assume's people play for fun and not to win?
And if FD want features like Powerplay (which are objective led) to flourish they need to address the imbalances. Saying "its tough, choose a mode that reduces it down to grinding" is not in my view, good.

That was a YT poll, about Elite, there have been other YT polls as well. Anyone in the World could have voted in them, so it #'s are useless compared to actual Elite players. Scam Citizen and Eve players probably voted
And yet those numbers are better than just assuming something out of thin air.

Was there a better way?
In V2 it does not matter (i.e. in the same way as 5C now) from the perspective of players who engage with the strategy side of things. To them its wasted effort and a reason to try and get as many people 'onside' to further the power (given that numbers matter like BGS actions).
 
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And yet those numbers are better than just assuming something out of thin air.

Well no they aren't, they are actually worse. Anyone who knows anything about polls know you have to adjust for bias. How do you adjust a youtube poll for bias? Answer, you don't, because you have no data on the people who posted to the poll. If you know nothing about the people who voted then the poll is invalid. This is why political polls target registered voters and not unregistered voters, and they get info about age groups, sex and etc, they can adjust for the number of voters who are registered for one side or the other and bias in age group leaning. Your poll is as worthless as the site it was posted on.
 
Well no they aren't, they are actually worse. Anyone who knows anything about polls know you have to adjust for bias. How do you adjust a youtube poll for bias? Answer, you don't, because you have no data on the people who posted to the poll. If you know nothing about the people who voted then the poll is invalid. This is why political polls target registered voters and not unregistered voters, and they get info about age groups, sex and etc, they can adjust for the number of voters who are registered for one side or the other and bias in age group leaning. Your poll is as worthless as the site it was posted on.
Snap polls on non specialist channels (i.e. neutral like BP) seem to be a representative pool of people for what was asked. In fact I'd say there would be less chance of bias considering when I asked if anyone had watched it on my PP discord channels (since it was an interesting video), no-one had and people went 'why are you watching that ****?'.

If these channels and people who run them so unrepresentative, why have FD turned to them in the past for advice on new features and feedback?
 
If these channels and people who run them so unrepresentative, why have FD turned to them in the past for advice on new features and feedback?

I didn't say that at all, so stop putting words in my mouth, that's dishonest and unethical. I clearly said THE POLLS are unreliable, because they can't be adjusted for bias, I never said anything about the channels themselves or the people who run them, sorry but this sort of stuff is why forums ban polls, you are lying about what I said, straight up lying!
 
I didn't say that at all, so stop putting words in my mouth, that's dishonest and unethical. I clearly said THE POLLS are unreliable, because they can't be adjusted for bias, I never said anything about the channels themselves or the people who run them, sorry but this sort of stuff is why forums ban polls, you are lying about what I said, straight up lying!
The channel is the sum of the people watching it. Is BP or OA a PvP centric or combat oriented channel?
 
The channel is the sum of the people watching it. Is BP or OA a PvP centric or combat oriented channel?

Still going I see, digging the hole, doesn't matter what their orientations is, you can't adjust online polls for bias unless you have information about the contributors, therefore they are unreliable and unfit to be used as indicator of player feeling. For instance say OA posts a poll about PvP, the large PvP groups find out about it and flood the polls, get friends and family to post, make multiple accounts. You can't weed out the multiple accounts, you can't determine which posters actually even play the game, therefore the POLLS are useless for said purpose of finding player feelings towards the polled subject. The channel is certainly not the sum of people watching it, that's as silly a statement I have heard in a long time.
 
Still going I see, digging the hole, doesn't matter what their orientations is, you can't adjust online polls for bias unless you have information about the contributors, therefore they are unreliable and unfit to be used as indicator of player feeling. For instance say OA posts a poll about PvP, the large PvP groups find out about it and flood the polls, get friends and family to post, make multiple accounts. You can't weed out the multiple accounts, you can't determine which posters actually even play the game, therefore the POLLS are useless for said purpose of finding player feelings towards the polled subject. The channel is certainly not the sum of people watching it, that's as silly a statement I have heard in a long time.
Obviously these polls have limits, but frankly I don't see BPs poll as anything other than an interesting snapshot of opinion- its not like this is a poll conducted by Rinzler.

As I said before, no-one would know BP would be doing a poll or what it was asking ahead of time. Are you suggesting it was brigaded on that very moment for the five or so minutes it was live? It may shock you that people don't work like that, or not the fanatics you make them out to be. If they are watching they'll vote, not go on a rabid click fest. "Hey mum! I need your Google password to vote on a PvP issue!"

:ROFLMAO:
 
Obviously these polls have limits, but frankly I don't see BPs poll as anything other than an interesting snapshot of opinion- its not like this is a poll conducted by Rinzler.

As I said before, no-one would know BP would be doing a poll or what it was asking ahead of time. Are you suggesting it was brigaded on that very moment for the five or so minutes it was live? It may shock you that people don't work like that, or not the fanatics you make them out to be. If they are watching they'll vote, not go on a rabid click fest. "Hey mum! I need your Google password to vote on a PvP issue!"

:ROFLMAO:

image-27.png

- Image of RubberNuke on spotting a poll, 2024 (Colourised)
 
Pick the play style you like and go for it, that is all.

Picking the mode we like shouldn't handicap progress. If FDev insists on sharing the BGS between game modes, then I believe the circumstances of those modes should be taken into account when calculating their contributions.

The other thing that affects Open Only that I have not chimed in on yet is: Ganking/Griefing. Until Fdev comes up with a better way to 'deal' with it, the majority of the Elite playerbase has decided how to deal with it. Good Bye Open! and or massive blocklist Open, and or always fly your SLF in Open... cause most groups love it when you do that!

I'm not convinced the majority of the player base has done what you say they've done.

PS My definition of Ganking/Griefing is making players go Boom for any reason outside of a mission, or powerplay target, or bounty

Frankly, this is an absurd and unworkable definition that ignores all kinds of behavior designed to cause grief to other players while condemning many entirely benign or desirable interactions. It's also reductionist and gamist to an immersion eviscerating extreme.

By your definition, I'm a 'griefer' in these encounters and about five-hundred others where my CMDR was acting in self-defense:
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MChFkhl2B_8

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hckjcsQ1SDM

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46rjR81lf5Y

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLXKJ5bK59s


If I exclude conflict zones and mutual duels/pitched wing engagements (which would also be ganking/griefing by the definition given), almost all of my CMDR's CMDR 'booms' are unambiguous cases of self-defense, with a small minority of retaliatory or pre-emptive strikes against known enemies (if my CMDR knows someone's hostile disposition, he's not going to sit around waiting to be shot). Often no CMDR involved is wanted, and when someone is wanted, it's often my CMDR, usually for accidental or PvE activities, frequently because I've never suicidewindered or otherwise cheated my way out my CMDR's bounties.

I can also provide examples of behavior that I consider to be unequivocal griefing where inter-CMDR violence is either absent, or completely secondary, and no CMDRs go boom.

Frankly, the idea the game has to explicitly condone an action in it's in-setting legal systems, especially in a setting that is supposed to depict highly flawed systems, for it to be legitamate gameplay is downright bizzare and incompatable with essentially any open-world sandboxesque experience where player initiative and player character defined goals are supposed to be a thing. The reverse is also clearly true; one can do things that violate no in-setting prohibitions (often because they have no possible in-setting context) that can be highly disruptive to the game and it's players.
 
Picking the mode we like shouldn't handicap progress. If FDev insists on sharing the BGS between game modes, then I believe the circumstances of those modes should be taken into account when calculating their contributions.

I agree, they should.

Here’s the situation about Open, though: Circumstances in Open vary wildly on a session by session basis, and between players. 90% of the time when I’m in Open, I might as well be in Solo, because either I won’t see another player at all, or there is absolutely no way that they could possibly be a threat. The other 10% of the time, I’m confident enough of my Supercruise skills, to simply proceed to my destination. I’ll target them to get a better idea of what they’re doing, of course, but most of the time it won’t take long before it’s obvious they’re not after me. Actual danger is vanishingly rare in my experience, even in Open hauling CGs.

Do you really think I deserve a bonus when the “risk” of Open is no different than that of Solo except when the stars align? Especially compared to other players who face opposition on a daily basis, thanks to their typical circumstances being ideal for confrontational PvP?

Which is why I think actual risk, not hypothetical risk, should be rewarded. There’s always the problem of collusion, but with a broad enough PowerPlayerbase, algorithms to detect collusion shouldn’t generate too many false positives.

The other thing that affects Open Only that I have not chimed in on yet is: Ganking/Griefing. Until Fdev comes up with a better way to 'deal' with it, the majority of the Elite playerbase has decided how to deal with it. Good Bye Open! and or massive blocklist Open, and or always fly your SLF in Open... cause most groups love it when you do that!

I'm not convinced the majority of the player base has done what you say they've done.

And you’d be right to, since Frontier has gone on record as saying that a significant majority of the playerbase plays in Open. Granted, this was six years ago, but human behavior hasn’t changed significantly over thousands of years, let alone forty or six. I sincerely doubt it’s changed all that much since then.

What I want most from PowerPlay 2.0 is, in order,
  • Provide a rich enough PvE experience to compete with the rest of the game, while still making the rest of the game tempting enough to make my day to day choices meaningful. PP 1.0 failed almost completely on that front.
  • Have a lot more players participating in PowerPlay. Aside from module shoppers, the general impression I get is that the overall PowerPlay community is tiny, and mostly focused on using PowerPlay as an excuse plot for organic PvP. I’m pleasantly surprised that Frontier is doing a revamp. If the number of participants doesn’t change significantly, then I doubt Frontier will ever touch it again.
  • Have a large Open PowerPlay population that abide by the unwritten rules of fair play, and thus are fun to play with… or against. The current status quo has a refreshingly small amount of unsportsmanlike behavior compared to other games I've played, and it's even smaller amount the PowerPlayerbase.
  • Have a meaningful enough impact on the game environment to care who controls a particular system, beyond role playing reasons. That’s enough for me, but if the average player’s reaction to who control’s which system is “Why should I care?”, you’re going to see a lot less conflict, and a lot more randomness.
  • Shift the current meta of highly specialized ships to multi-role ones, so that I, as a non-combat oriented non-PvPer, will see “Fight” as a viable option when I see an opposing player.

With the rare exception, the current PowerPlay community constantly complains that while they bravely do all their activities in Open, while the rest cowardly does theirs in Solo/PG. As I see it, this leads to three scenarios, in order of most likely to least likely:

The current PowerPlayerbase is significantly more likely to freely choose Open than the general Playerbase. The origin of the above complaint is that the design of the game, from the choice of Peer-to-Peer instance hosting, matchmaking rules that favor quality of experience over advesarial play, the size of the game environment, and the small size of the community, makes it highly unlikely that you'll ever see another hostile PowerPlayer except when the stars align. If this trend continues in PowerPlay 2.0, which features an even larger game map, then there's little reason to weigh Open vs other modes. Fix the so-called "automation" problem, and there's little reason to worry about how "efficient" other modes are.​
The current PowerPlayerbase is just as likely to chooose freely Open as the general Playerbase. This pretty much the same as the first scenario, but the community is larger than a tiny core of dedicated PvPers. Again, there's little reason to worry about how "efficient" other modes are if the so-called "automation" problem is fixed. If that free choice is taken away, though, it'll result in a general increase in unsportsmanlike behavior compared to the current status quo. Not a significant increase, but it'll probably enough that those who are attracted to PowerPlay for the PvP will be more frustrated than they currently are.​
The current PowerPlayerbase is significant less likely to freely choose Open than the general Playerbase. If this is actually the case, why on earth would anyone trust the current PowerPlayerbase to actually be fun to play with if they were coerced into Open? If they can't be trusted to obey their own house rules, why should they be trusted to obey the unwritten rules of fair play? This would be consistent with my experiences in similar games, though, so kudos to Frontier for creating an effective solution to this particularly thorny problem.​
As I said, I consider the first scenario to be the most likely one, and the current status quo is highly effective at keeping those who are not fun to play with either in Solo/PG, or most likely quitting the game entirely because the unfun types can't find their preffered "content" in Open, only players who are hard to kill at best, and view them as content at worst.
 
I agree, they should.

Here’s the situation about Open, though: Circumstances in Open vary wildly on a session by session basis, and between players. 90% of the time when I’m in Open, I might as well be in Solo, because either I won’t see another player at all, or there is absolutely no way that they could possibly be a threat. The other 10% of the time, I’m confident enough of my Supercruise skills, to simply proceed to my destination. I’ll target them to get a better idea of what they’re doing, of course, but most of the time it won’t take long before it’s obvious they’re not after me. Actual danger is vanishingly rare in my experience, even in Open hauling CGs.

Do you really think I deserve a bonus when the “risk” of Open is no different than that of Solo except when the stars align? Especially compared to other players who face opposition on a daily basis, thanks to their typical circumstances being ideal for confrontational PvP?

Which is why I think actual risk, not hypothetical risk, should be rewarded. There’s always the problem of collusion, but with a broad enough PowerPlayerbase, algorithms to detect collusion shouldn’t generate too many false positives.

I'm not an advocate for blanket mode-based bias, but for taking the telemetry that's already collected and applying situational biases to mitigate any skew that results from mode choice. Dynamic real-time changes would be nice, but probably impractical. Still, basic trends could be identified and then rewards adjusted with the daily BGS tick or something.

The opportunity cost from risk is also only one factor of many that I believe should be weighed in. For example, the biggest hang up in a war or bounty CG isn't the presence of hostile CMDRs (though they are a factor), it's the over population of CZ/RES instances and competition for landing pads. In these scenarios, a given bounty or bond might be worth more because there would be a clear statistical disadvantage vs. working cooperatively in a small group in a PG or by one's self in Solo. One might still be able to eke out an edge in Solo, but it should be possible to largely negate mode choice as a major differential between whatever reward metric is in question.
 
By your definition, I'm a 'griefer' in these encounters and about five-hundred others where my CMDR was acting in self-defense:
Hmm, several of your videos show you as 'wanted' , and therefore you are a valid in game target, as you have been engaging in criminal activity... If you are wanted, anyone can shoot at you for the bounty

As far as consensual PvP duels and CZ's, that is too obvious, or so I thought. Agreeing to fight another Cmdr because you have fun doing that is each Cmdr's choice. Nothing further needs to be said about it. Most people also go to an anarchy system so as not to add bounties when dueling and therefore get a wanted status
 
Hmm, several of your videos show you as 'wanted' , and therefore you are a valid in game target, as you have been engaging in criminal activity... If you are wanted, anyone can shoot at you for the bounty

All CMDRs are valid in-game targets and no one needs to be wanted to be shot at. I'd also argue that the presence of a bounty should be pretty flimsy pretext for violence; something that should barely register on rational reasons to attack someone. My CMDR, not being an abject arsehole/space Karen/comic villian, doesn't go around shooting people (even NPCs) just because they are wanted, or otherwise valid targets, he generally has to have an actual reason.

That's all beside the point though. My CMDR isn't ganking anyone when he fails to roll over and explode when attacked, and I'm not griefing anyone for having my CMDR stand his ground.
 
Fdev feel free to create a: Real Useful and Working Crime and Punishment system so Open Only can be used for something else besides a Gankers and Griefers paradise. It is truly a shame an entire game mode is shunned by so many due to in game murder hobos
My 2 cents: "Griefers" wouldn't be a concern if the player interaction design wasn't absurdly stupid. They can only exist because the devs give them the ability to steal time from others without offering anything in return. The devs give them no value.

Attack/interdict a clean ship. You're starting the mini game I outlined previously. It presents enough opportunity for the other party and is worth the time to engage. If you're wanted (for whatever reason), in an area where there is no concept of 'law' or turn off 'report crimes', then people are free to use your time as they see fit. Stay out of open if you don't like that. That doesn't change. Open contains other people that might force you to use time on worthless mechanics. I don't like it, so I stay out. Change it to "open contains other people that might use your time but offer opportunity worth your time in return". That would be worth considering.

off topic: What if the devs gave every ship another class 1 slot and "report crimes" was now a part of a new, optional module? Would you trade it for another module? What if it were a utility you could engineer to get a faster response? Could they incentivize people to NOT report crimes? I'd trade it for another slot in a heartbeat if playing in solo. I remember pvpers getting annoyed the last time there was discussion about adding another slot because adding another HRP would make pvp even more of a slog.

You're wanted and I'm clean. I attack you. I don't get a bounty because you're wanted. You fire back. That's a bounty and now we're playing attack vs escape with whatever I'm wagering. Flying around 'wanted' should be dangerous. Not because "oh noes; they'll blow up my 20k shield ship", but because the interaction revolves around logical win conditions. I'm forcing you to use your time on me now. You need to kill me if you fight back. It doesn't matter if it's going to be a 30 minute long fight between meta ships. You run immediately or you attack and kill me. I have the option of trying to kill you or running. You don't know my intention. I might be stalling for n-seconds and then "frame shift drive charging." lol. Killing you is lucrative because I get the bounty, your blackbox AND the reward for "escape". You're an opportunity and I know if you're worth my time because I control the wager. You're in the dark and just know I represent consequence.

This would give bounty hunters an advantage over criminals. Hell, it would give them a reason to exist beyond silly role play. It's a viable career now. I personally wouldn't spend my time flying around in a pvp ship, but I'm sure others would; especially in player hotspots. I might attack your FDL while flying around in my mission runner python though. lol. I wouldn't do it if I had a lot to lose simply because you're probably gonna smash me, but I'd take the chance. Add the powerplay stuff I mentioned before. I have a 1000 merits. I see a wanted enemy. He's alone. Escape is going to give me 500 merits. Letting him kill me will cost 1000. I'll take that risk and offer him the chance to get 500 merits if he can kill me. Isn't that the gameplay people want? Some guy claiming he only camps in deciat because he wants player interaction would have his fill. People would never leave him alone.

"...but that means I shouldn't fight back and just have to run!" No one that wants to make the current, stupid design of the interaction obligatory should have the audacity to complain about that. They would face this kind of gameplay because they have a criminal status within the world of the game. They want others to face that gameplay because... "I shoot at you hahah you run lulz pew pew pew"

"Griefers" are only a thing because the devs treat time like a free, unlimited resource. The devs treat stealing time from others like an insignificant act. It's the most consequential thing you can do to another player! It's not the rebuy, data, cargo, bonds, vouchers, etc. The time lost is the issue. Can someone please explain why interdicting a clean ship is a petty fine? Seriously. what?
 
Open vs Solo vs Group... this discussion sounds familiar.

Yup, just a new coat of paint on good ol' Hotel California

Indeed your right the p2p system we have in ED isn't stable or sufficient to host a pvp campaign for PP 2.0. And no I'm not naive I've posted about this very issue many times.
I'm kinda hoping they'll do something about it or it's just gonner bebad

Frontier was warned from the very start that Peer to Peer was the wrong choice for a game that includes direct PvP.
They didn't want to pay out for a proper server/client config, saying that it saved them charging us a monthly subscription.
And quite a few of us said we would be happy to pay a sub, for a proper setup.

They wouldn't budge on the issue. And I doubt they ever will.
 
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