Open-Only in PP2.0?

I agree with Riley. I play in Open almost exclusively, but I don't want to force anyone to play the game in a way they don't like. However, as it stands now, preferring to play in Open is a disadvantage - it gives your enemies the ability to directly counter you, a risk you don't need to take in Solo or PG. You're incentivized and rewarded for playing in Solo or PG instead of Open. So how the system is set up currently is actually driving players away from Open who normally would play Open - the kind of player that cares very much about efficiency in their grinding, for example.

Incorrect. Playing in solo is a disadvantage, since you can't wing up. You can be a lot more effective at the BGS by winging up. And if in a wing you're not facing much risk from most things. Gankers, at least solo ones, will not likely want to take on a full wing, and even if they do, and its a wing of traders, 3 can get away while the fourth is targetted, and even the fourth might get away (Cutter builds are great trade ships that are hard to take down due to their speed and MLF). Wing attackers can split, but they've still got to get the kill.

Assuming competent players on all sides, those hauling win the BGS/PP, the PvPers lose.

Welcome to Loserville.

As for driving players away from open, more like attracting people to PvE modes if that's what they seek in terms of enjoyment.
 
You can fight back if they are in PG/solo, by working the BGS.

If they were in open, you might, on occasion, see them, but at best you can sometimes get a kill and stop them doing their stuff, but while you're trying to find someone opposing you you're not working the BGS, so you're still going to lose the BGS war if that is your strategy.

Now, you could fly a combat ship and do missions at the same time to work the BGS, which might help you more, but if you're RES hunting for bounties or visiting specific places, then you're not on the hunt for other players, and if its an election, where non-combat activities matter, then flying a combat build is silly, you need to be in a trade ship or similar to work that BGS.

In short, thinking PvP is the solution to your BGS woes is silly and uninformed.

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Because the experience in Open can be very hit or miss, especially if you get an laggy connection or an instance host who’s machine can’t handle that many entities at once. It’s annoying enough when it happens by accident, but the type of player who’s in Solo/PG for an ephemeral edge is also the type of player to weaponize this to maintain that advantage.
Least they'd be in with the community at large.
 
FDev, you are NEVER, EVER going to "balance" anything with regard to Power Play while you continue to allow it be impacted by players in Solo and Private Group! Open and Solo / Private Group are two diametrically opposed paradigms that can NOT be reconciled under any circumstance, no matter how hard you try to force that square peg into the round hole.

Power Play in Open mode carries the risk of being countered by other real players; it has its own built-in throttle to prevent run-away Control Score gain for Galactic Powers, assuming players avail themselves of it.

Solo and Private Group, by contrast, have no such limiter. There is no risk, there is no consequence, there is no counter. Galactic Powers' Control Scores can sore through the roof overnight as Solo and Private Group players dump Fleet Carriers'-worth of rare goods, billions in exploration and exobiology data, farm SLFs at Stronghold carriers without fear of real player intervention, etc. Which appears to be what you're taking issue with; the too-rapid a swing in Control Scores and an upending of the grand strategy game that you had hoped Power Play would become.

And your knee-jerk response? Nerf every Merit-generating method available, stubbornly clinging to the belief that you can salvage the situation, that you can make Power Play all-inclusive across all modes. Ummm...<psst>...you CAN'T ! Not from lack of trying (because God knows you've tried; you've kicked that dead horse until it's turned into an unrecognizable red smear).

Nerfing Merit-gain in service to the all-mighty mantra of "BALANCE" is precisely the wrong solution. You're attempting to balance that which can not be balanced because there are fundamentally two different games under one umbrella at work here; a high risk / high reward version of Elite Dangerous with hard counters (Open mode) and a no risk / all reward version of Elite Dangerous with no counters (Solo and Private Group). But rather than balance, all you've accomplished is to alienate everyone; Open, Solo, and Private Group moders alike. You're rapidly eroding all the good will you've built up over this past year and players are not going to be kind to you (see Helldivers 2).

The solution is to finally, FINALLY, accept that you can't have everyone play the same game when you, yourselves, created two different games under one banner. You created the problem by trying to shoehorn two incompatible modes into one game. THAT can not be undone; it is what it is, now. But, with respect to this most recent debacle of Power Play, it's salvageable and here's how:

Merits earned in Solo and Private Group will no longer contribute to the Control Score of Galactic Powers.

Merits are still earned. They're even still earned at the same rate as a Commander playing in Open (no worries of cries of "UNFAIR!" due to a disparity in Merits earned between modes). Players in Solo and Private Group continue to progress through their ranks, unlocking modules and Galactic Power-specific bonuses just like their Open mode counterparts. This group is happy; they're getting what they want out of Power Play (rank progression, modules, and no perceived inequity in Merit-earning potential).

Meanwhile, those playing in Open get what they want; a Power Play wherein counters exist, where no longer can a Galactic Power's fortunes be influenced by Commanders in Solo and Private Group who are de facto playing the game in Invulnerable + Stealth mode. Power Play is returned to a strategy game conducted on a level playing field where the risk / reward paradigm is reinstated and respected. This group is happy.

With no Merits contributing to Control Score in Solo and Private Group and hard counters existing in Open, Power Play settles down to a more measured pace in alignment with FDev's vision for this facet of the game. This group, too, is happy.

The only group that won't be happy is the one who willfully uses Solo and Private Group to engage with Power Play consequence-free, knowing they can shift the fortunes of a Galactic Power and there is nothing anyone can do to counter them. But, as that approach is the antithesis of what makes for a good strategy game, I don't think the other three groups will care if this minority is unhappy that their no risk / all reward play has been eliminated.

So we score a WIN-WIN-WIN for the three groups that matter with the fourth's opinion being irrelevant.

And, to address the loophole that some readers are probably already contemplating, anything that generates Merits will be "tagged" from this point forward. If it's obtained in Solo or Private Group, it will be identified as such, even if only behind the scenes. This Solo / Private Group tag is permanent and can not be reversed or changed; it's a Merit-generator that will remain tagged as having come from Solo or Private Group in perpetuity. If a Commander in possession of a Merit-generator tagged as such enters Open, its Solo / Private Group tag remains. It can be redeemed for Merits, but will not contribute to a change in Control Score under any circumstance.

If, on the other hand, a Merit-generator is obtained in Open it, too, will be tagged as such. Unlike the Solo and Private Group tag, though, it can change tag. If an "Open" tagged Merit-generator is brought into Solo / Private Group, it becomes a Solo / Private Group-tagged Merit-generator. The reason for this is to prevent Commanders from gaming the system. Some examples to illustrate:

A Commander, playing in Solo mode, returns from a lengthy exploration journey with a billion credits in cartographic data. They safely dock at a starport in the Bubble, never having worried about being interdicted by real players. They log out to the Main Menu and then back in again in Open mode this time. Their intent being to sell their exploration data to contribute to their Galactic Power's Control Score in the system, patting themselves on the back for how clever they are. But, because the cartographic data was obtained in Solo mode and is permanently tagged as such, the sale - though earning Merits for the Commander - has no impact on the Galactic Power's Control Score.

Another Commander, this time playing in Open mode, docks at a starport and buys out all the local rare goods. They then switch to Solo mode and fly to their desired destination, using this mode to avoid interdiction by real players. Once safely docked at their target starport, they switch back to Open, believing the sale of the rare goods will not only net them Merits but contribute to their Galactic Power's Control Score, too. Au contraire! The moment they changed to Solo from Open mode, their rare goods also changed tag from "Open" to "Solo"; a permanent change. From that point forward those rare goods will NEVER be able to earn Control Score for a Galactic Power - Merits for the Commander, yes, but Control Score for the GP, no - even if the Commander in possession of them returns to Open mode.

In this way Commanders are prevented from gaming the system. Control Score can only be affected by those Commanders who play in Open and remain in Open while conducting Power Play activities. Unlike many previous calls for "Power Play should be Open-only!", though, it preserves the ability of Solo and Private Group players to still pursue the Merit-gain, rank progression, module unlocks, and bonus acquisition of Power Play. The only thing they're unable to do - while they remain in Solo and Private group or bring a Solo / Private Group-tagged Merit-generator into Open - is impact the Control Scores of Galactic Powers; as it should be.

Then we can finally dispense with the folly that is attempting to balance two incompatible game modes around Power Play; all while keeping nearly everyone happy (save those who were essentially using Solo / Private group as a de facto Power Play exploit).
 

Two counterpoints to this.

1) Sure, if you can get an opportunistic kill against a PP opponent while doing other PP stuff, then its a plus, but those few minutes you spend getting that kill (assuming you succeed, and don't fail, otherwise its just lost time), is time lost which you could have spent doing the thing you were doing. If you're just sat there waiting for targets, you'll just fall behind those doing PvE activities.

2) Person i was replying to was referring to the BGS, not PP, and the BGS has even less benefit to doing PvP.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
The only solution that works for everyone is two parallel universes. One open only, one with modes.
Usually when this is proposed those seeking Open only seek to remove Open in the existing game - as if to attempt to restrict unlimited population multi-player to the Open only galaxy.

A different solution, that would not require either splitting the galaxy or changing how players interact with mode shared game features from any of the game modes, would be a new permit locked volume, that only players in Open could access, a short distance from the bubble and comprised of however many currently unpopulated systems were deemed optimal to give players space to compete over without spreading players too thinly, that could be seeded with Powers and Factions and take advantage of the upcoming Colonisation feature..
 
if i hit you and you put a bandaid on the booboo and it heals, you didnt fight back. to fight back you would have to hit me back.

Poor analogy since you're effectively using a PvP type scenario to say why PvE doesn't work. It doesn't make sense.

Person A (the attacker) is trying to make one effect happen (eg: boost INF of Faction A). Person B (the defender) is trying to counter that effect (reduce INF of Faction A, or boost INF of Faction B).

If B can do enough to stop or even outpace person A's efforts, then they are winning. You've fought back.

We've had this a number of times in our system and with our faction. We had groups trying to take over. And we eventually always won by out BGSing them. Doesn't matter really if we know who they are or not. Even if we know who they are and their home system, any actions we take to attack their system/faction would reduce the efforts we apply defending our own system, potentially winning a battle elsewhere (or not) but losing in our own.

Now, if you like, let's look at the Open Only experience, where PvP becomes an option, and its getting boring repeating myself, but people seem to love ignoring it.

You may know who your opponent is because sometimes, maybe, you get to see them, although maybe you had suspicions anyway because it was a player faction being boosted. Or maybe you don't know, because you have no idea who is actually doing stuff. Maybe you don't even see who is doing the stuff. But let's assume you do.

Well, in the context of PP you know who your opponents are anyway, its all other powers. In terms of the BGS, then maybe they have a faction that you could hit at... or maybe they are a group of players without a player faction, they've just decided to have some fun with your faction.

Anyway, back to the PvP possibility.

Story time!

I want to give them a bloody nose, right? How dare they push the influence of another faction/power! This shall not stand!

So I spend my time hunting for their ships. Minutes pass. Nope, nobody. More minutes pass... oh, a blip! Ah, no, not one of ones i need to attack, just a random commander, not even power aligned. Can't go attacking them anyway, someone might slip past while i'm doing that. Hmmm... are they even online at the moment? Or maybe they are in a different instance.... or maybe they've seen me before and blocked me. Damn. Ah, now i see one. They are mine! I'm going to boil them up! So I go after them, interdict! Got them!

Open fire!

Cutter goes boost boost wake.

Damn. Ok, i'll get them next time.

Several hours later, I got some kills. I feel happy about this.

Next day, BGS tick.

Result: my faction's influence (or Power) has dropped like a rock.

What?! How can that be?

Because the people doing PvE were scoring tons of INF every run i failed to stop, ever run I didn't see due to timezones or instancing or blocking or when I was busy interdicting someone else!

Ok, so what about wars? Wars are good! Direct PvP is designed for these with combat zones! Let's get it on! Powerplay has combat zones as well!

Now what though? Where are they? Do i go hunting in every CZ in the system or do i pick one and clear it. I still need to win more CZs than the opposing side. Doesn't matter how many opposing players I kill, that just slows them down. I've got to get CZ wins as well.

I've learned my lesson now. I can't put PvP ahead of the PvE, that's a losing strategy. That will lead to losing the war. So I go into a CZ with the hope of seeing one of those dastardly opposing players. If I do, i'll show them who is boss!

So, i'm in the zone, blasting away, going good and then...

Rebuy screen! Killed by CMDR Opposing Player.

Damn, lost a few bonds, need to get back into the action now.


Yes, I ended it with (me) the PvP player getting killed, because one thing that always seems to seep through in these open only discussions is a somewhat veiled assumption that if open only happens, it will be the proponents believing it will be them that get the kills. Its always worth keeping in mind in combat scenarios, with people knowing PvP can happen, that things might not always go your way. Maybe even most of the time it will be you dying, not killing.
 
Usually when this is proposed those seeking Open only seek to remove Open in the existing game - as if to attempt to restrict unlimited population multi-player to the Open only galaxy.

A different solution, that would not require either splitting the galaxy or changing how players interact with mode shared game features from any of the game modes, would be a new permit locked volume, that only players in Open could access, a short distance from the bubble and comprised of however many currently unpopulated systems were deemed optimal to give players space to compete over without spreading players too thinly, that could be seeded with Powers and Factions and take advantage of the upcoming Colonisation feature..

Yes, that's been mooted before. Its a decent idea and probably less hassle for FD, but i feel that open only proponents wouldn't be happy with that. Probably something about why should they be the ones who have to leave the bubble to get their activities, why should they be second class citizens?

There again, they wouldn't be happy if a parallel universe was spun up for open only either. Not when they realized just how empty space is with only a fraction of the players. Open currently, allegedly, according to FD's last statements on it, is the most popular mode. So that's a decent sized population for a very large play area. I suspect though only a very small proportion of those open players would switch to an open only server, as i think most players enjoy dipping into PG/solo sometimes, when the mood suits them, or just to avoid annoyances like people camping at Deciat or whatever.

Hell, said it before, I've seen open only proponents playing in PGs, grinding stuff, because they didn't want to do it in open.
 
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a new permit locked volume, that only players in Open could access, a short distance from the bubble
wouldnt that be functionally eqivalent of punishing open players by exiling them from the bubble?
how would that suggestion stand if it was solo players that would have to vacate the bubble if they wanted to play solo? i think even fdev admitted that majority of playerbase prefers open, wouldnt that be alienating them? insulting even?
 
Poor analogy since you're effectively using a PvP type scenario to say why PvE doesn't work. It doesn't make sense.
im just effectively saying that unless you can hit back, you arent fighting back, without any connection to any mode, style, preference, opinion, or else. no strings attached.
i remember someone saying that semantics, as the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning, is rather important in communication...
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
wouldnt that be functionally eqivalent of punishing open players by exiling them from the bubble?
how would that suggestion stand if it was solo players that would have to vacate the bubble if they wanted to play solo? i think even fdev admitted that majority of playerbase prefers open, wouldnt that be alienating them? insulting even?
We all share the galaxy, regardless of preferred play-style, affecting it from all three game modes.

If the desire is "all or nothing" rather than "something", then it's entirely possible that the result may be "nothing it is then....".

While Frontier have indicated that a majority play in Open, it was not clear that the statement did not suffer from the common misuse of the word "majority" is often used to describe how popular one of more than two possibilities is, when the result may be a plurality instead, i.e. one option enjoys more support than each of the other two but does not enjoy more than 50% support.

Frontier have also said that they are "well aware" that the majority of players don't get involved in PvP, and more recently that "a lot" of players engage in (unspecified) combat and "a lot" of players don't get involved in combat "at all".

As to insults - when it is proposed that players who don't need to or choose to play in Open while affecting mode shared game features should be either unable to affect those features from any game mode other than Open or should be penalised for doing do, by making their effects on those game features somewhere between worth less and worthless, those doing the proposing don't seem too bothered that the proposal is insulting towards those who don't enjoy an entirely optional play-style.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Yes, that's been mooted before. Its a decent idea and probably less hassle for FD, but i feel that open only proponents wouldn't be happy with that. Probably something about why should they be the ones who have to leave the bubble to get their activities, why should they be second class citizens?

There again, they wouldn't be happy if a parallel universe was spun up for open only either. Not when they realized just how empty space is with only a fraction of the players. Open currently, allegedly, according to FD's last statements on it, is the most popular mode. So that's a decent sized population for a very large play area. I suspect though only a very small proportion of those open players would switch to an open only server, as i think most players enjoy dipping into PG/solo sometimes, when the mood suits them, or just to avoid annoyances like people camping at Deciat or whatever.

Hell, said it before, I've seen open only proponents playing in PGs, grinding stuff, because they didn't want to do it in open.
Indeed.

Not forgetting that players with Odyssey have two Open modes to choose from - so Open only would not guarantee that any player would be in the "right" Open to be targeted. It would also allow players to switch Opens at will, circumventing any of the "mode tagging" of items proposed by some.
 
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