Open PvE

[Meritz]

Mad Mike, that would work only if groups then get completely cut off from influencing the overall background sim. You can't have players deciding their own game rules and then have those same players indirectly participating in the games based on something completely different. We have enough problems with solo/Open as is.

And again, all you listed is a lot of work as it affects multiple game systems.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Mad Mike, that would work only if groups then get completely cut off from influencing the overall background sim. You can't have players deciding their own game rules and then have those same players indirectly participating in the games based on something completely different. We have enough problems with solo/Open as is.

And again, all you listed is a lot of work as it affects multiple game systems.

on your 1st point.... but they already do....... surely my suggestions are no more extreme than the current state of play, where if I chose I can play my own private group, and only allow people I know in my own meat space in - people i KNOW wont try and kill me - so I do not think any of the above flags will destabilise the background sim any more than it already is..... and it has been fully advertised from day 1 that members of solo and pirvate groups still get to influcence that background sim so that is not going to go anywhere any time soon imo.

regarding the work.... I am not one of those blanket stating it is "easy"... so yes it would take some manpower sure, but the software guys need to be doing something to keep them busy ( whilst the graphics guys put together our 15 new ships, and (hopefully) more space stations, space station interiors, people milling about the place, factories and refineries in space, planet surfaces, planet cities, refineries and factories on land etc etc.)

edit... I quite liked Mobius' suggestion a few pages back on his PvE option, even so far as where if you want to change back to PvP or from PvP - PvE you do it at a space station and that is where the rules changed.

I also really liked his vision of what ALL would be, and indeed is how I thought it was going to be to be honest.

 

[Meritz]

on your 1st point.... but they already do....... surely my suggestions are no more extreme than the current state of play, where if I chose I can play my own private group, and only allow people I know in my own meat space in - people i KNOW wont try and kill me - so I do not think any of the above flags will destabilise the background sim any more than it already is..... and it has been fully advertised from day 1 that members of solo and pirvate groups still get to influcence that background sim so that is not going to go anywhere any time soon imo.

You have to keep in mind that any complaints and debates currently going on because of the differences between solo/open/group gameplay would be exacerbated x10. As I said, giving one side the ability to decide basic game rules for themselves and keeping those rules enforced on the other will either decimate Open play, losing a lot of players to FD, or will polarize the playerbase into two camps that would be highly vitriolic to one another.

There is a reason why games which have different rule sets (PvE, PvP, RPPvP etc.) keep those on completely separate servers.

regarding the work.... I am not one of those blanket stating it is "easy"... so yes it would take some manpower sure, but the software guys need to be doing something to keep them busy ( whilst the graphics guys put together our 15 new ships, and (hopefully) more space stations, space station interiors, people milling about the place, factories and refineries in space, planet surfaces, planet cities, refineries and factories on land etc etc.)

But they are busy. I kinda doubt there is a single person on the dev team spending their days in boredom surfing Facebook and wishing they had something to do.

What you guys are talking about requires not only UI work or simple flags. It requires the overhaul of matchmaker, damage, collision systems, it requires design team meetings, complex decisions being made, fleshed out, coded, tested etc.

And finally, FD designed this game to be a sandbox with open PvP ruleset at its core, with the opt-out available to those who don't like it. It is a question why would they want to devote serious time and resources to developing something that runs contrary to the basic design of the game.

 

[Mobius]

As I said, giving one side the ability to decide basic game rules for themselves and keeping those rules enforced on the other will either decimate Open play.

you are a very vocal advocate of pvp, every single post of your regarding pvp and pve constantly dismisses all PvE elements while at the same time saying how Elite dangerous should be a full on PvP game, your discussions offer not a single solution to bringing the separate player base together, I would like to bring the two groups together and make Elite a entertaining open world as shown below.

My Approach to bringing everyone together and playing in the all group
would require a hand full of things to be implemented.
.
.​

• like eve online secure space the NPC police need to be quick and deadly as a response force while in faction space,

.

• players must choose one of 4 factions Empire, Federation, Alliance, None, missions should be available for players to swap factions to prove their loyalty, being part of a faction and flying in that's faction space would have the benefits of having the NPC police respond quickly, if you are not part of that faction then response times are reduced. fellow players of the same faction will show up as green while other factions will show up as the normal orange. this I would hope bring a greater sense of belonging and identity,

this would give pvp players a target to attack seeing none faction players in there space, but they would still have to deal with the NPC police if they attacked while in
secure space, players changing faction would lose all influence with their previous faction as well as ranks, meaning that if you swapped from the empire to federation
while flying a clipper you wouldn't get insurance to by a new clipper, no biggy just sell it
.

• players that have a wanted status from killing another player from another faction wont show up as being wanted to their own faction unless a scan is made. bounty hunters will need to purchase a licence to kill wanted players to protect them from their faction NPC police, and obviously would also need to contact the pilots federation to claim their bounty's. it would probably be simpler to have the one licence to kill that covers all factions against the police force.

.

• faction space would need to show security ratings, showing high medium low and anarchy.

players can still destabilise systems via missions thus making systems secure or anarchy, systems at war with conflict zones would still have a deadly NPC police force
but response times would be reduced until the system stabilises or enters a brief period of anarchy for a short time then a new government is brought in, the system
would be re rated as secure starting with low and eventually returning back to its previous security state.
.

• players who choose a faction can pirate in the opposing faction space or anarchy space, if they pirate there own faction they will begin to lose great amounts of influence and will eventually be aligned to no one. players killing a fellow faction player will receive a murder bounty and then be aligned to the none faction forcing the player into low security space.

.

• to appease the pirates Anarchy space stations would need to entice players to journey in there, unique missions with great reward to venture into high security space, unique trade items that sell well in faction black markets, something that makes it worthwhile to venture into anarchy space.

.

• low security space and anarchy space should obviously sit on the boarders of faction space, and unique faction trade goods should bring high profits in the opposing faction systems, this will entice traders looking for a high profit to venture between faction space. traders not wanting to risk losing cargo would remain in the inner systems under the protection of their faction.

.

• the founders system would need to be relocated to a central position between all 3 major factions to allow access to all players.

.
basically players need to feel part of something bigger than themselves and uniting under a flag will focus players into something much larger than just random killing.

 

[Meritz]

you are a very vocal advocate of pvp, every single post of your regarding pvp and pve constantly dismisses all PvE elements while at the same time saying how Elite dangerous should be a full on PvP game, your discussions offer not a single solution to bringing the separate player base together, I would like to bring the two groups together and make Elite a entertaining open world as shown below.

Actually, I am a vocal advocate of a unified playerbase and have been since Beta. I look on PvP as just one aspect of gameplay (albeit a core one) and do not equate Open with PvP - it is some PvE players who insist that Open is all PvP all the time, which is far from the actual state of affairs (as someone who played Open exclusively since there were 9 systems in total and hangs around populated areas including hotspots such as Lugh war, often in trade ships, I have somewhat extensive experience in that area).

For the record, I agree with a lot of what you proposed as a way to enhance Open play. I have stated on multiple occasions my suggestions how to enhance Open play and we have plenty of similar ideas. While I think your factions idea has merit, it would have to be adjusted to the game lore (basically factions are not at open war right now so it wouldn't make sense for them to be openly hostile to one another). The privateer part is an interesting take on things and I think it would do a lot for Open gameplay as well as fostering the feel of belonging to a faction and reasons to fight for it, something that's missing right now.

I do think that a huge enhancement in both NPC AI in general and specifically police response in secure areas and around protected stations is in order. Players should feel like there are safe places in the galaxy. PvP in the form of unsanctioned piracy and murder should be very difficult in such areas. Not outright impossible, but much, much more difficult and punishing than it is now. Unsanctioned murder should also push players firmly in the outlaw gameplay with its own drawbacks - those who want to live on the edge of society should live on the edge of society, not get "Welcome, Commander" from high-sec stations.

That's why I argue against a separate Open PvE. I believe the existing Open mode can be enhanced to the benefit of all players, PvE and PvP alike. Giving more content, better direction and a feel of continuity and logic to the game universe, where rule of law exists and is something to be respected. And where outlaws choosing the path of murder and capital crime do get to play in the same world but with consequences befitting such gameplay choices.

This is what I believe FD should focus on. I think this game has great potential, and a lot of that potential lies in other players, in a vibrant, unified playerbase and a multitude of different play styles all mixed together in a way where no one feels cheated or a "second class citizen" that exists purely for someone's entertainment.

 

[Mobius]

I to have been here since the Beginning and even back then it was shown that there are players out there that think elite is some sort of frag fest free for all,
the problem with the game right now is that FD have taken the lazy approach of making it a blank sandbox game and releasing it.
FD left it to the player base to let them fight it out, well that lazy approach ended up separating that player base.
and because its now separated both the PvP and PvE elements have suffered, PvE players want stability and PvP players want combat.
I love the game at the moment but only while playing in the private group where we have that stability and trust element and PvP is allowed in combat zones.
the main problem with Elite in its current state is that FD have given us a very thin veil of a player vs environment game with its factions and lore but no content to back it up correctly,
what is left is a free for all where pvp is not played on a level playing field, we have a player base that want to take control of areas of space to call there own just like in Eve online and in a game like Elite it doesn't work, Elite was released to soon and it has suffered from that.

 

[SiriusSeven]

While I think your factions idea has merit, it would have to be adjusted to the game lore (basically factions are not at open war right now so it wouldn't make sense for them to be openly hostile to one another).

Are we hopeful that 1.3 may change some of this?

 

[SiriusSeven]

I to have been here since the Beginning and even back then it was shown that there are players out there that think elite is some sort of frag fest free for all,
...
what is left is a free for all where pvp is not played on a level playing field, we have a player base that want to take control of areas of space to call there own just like in Eve online and in a game like Elite it doesn't work, Elite was released to soon and it has suffered from that.

Yes. Consider than when the game was released in December:

- in-game chat didn't work reliably
- you couldn't group
- instancing was finicky (if you were persistent enough to try pseudo-grouping)
- then, as now, police response was laughable and consequences hugely asymmetrical

* The only thing that worked really well in MP was combat (and it worked beautifully)


It's really not surprising that people looked at this and said: Frag fest.
All the engine let you do was shoot people.

And, you know what they say about first impressions... FD now have to fight (pun intended) to convince many of us that Open is the place to be.

 

[Meritz]

I to have been here since the Beginning and even back then it was shown that there are players out there that think elite is some sort of frag fest free for all,
the problem with the game right now is that FD have taken the lazy approach of making it a blank sandbox game and releasing it.
FD left it to the player base to let them fight it out, well that lazy approach ended up separating that player base.
and because its now separated both the PvP and PvE elements have suffered, PvE players want stability and PvP players want combat.
I love the game at the moment but only while playing in the private group where we have that stability and trust element and PvP is allowed in combat zones.
the main problem with Elite in its current state is that FD have given us a very thin veil of a player vs environment game with its factions and lore but no content to back it up correctly,
what is left is a free for all where pvp is not played on a level playing field, we have a player base that want to take control of areas of space to call there own just like in Eve online and in a game like Elite it doesn't work, Elite was released to soon and it has suffered from that.

You will find no argument from me on that. BUT, that's why I say, the priority for FD should not be a separate PvE mode, which precisely because PvE game is so thin right now, would only create more problems and solve few if any. The absolute priority should be to finish the framework they launched with.

And in fact I think most of the work should go to the PvE side of things. We need better, deeper faction play. We need more mission types, we need persistent NPCs, passenger play, NPC crews, multi-tiered missions, more group content etc. PvP can stand on its own right now - they do have work to do on stuff like combat logging, but PvPers are mostly their own content. And it's not like PvPers don't like good PvE as well. The only thing FD needs to do with PvP is enforce ingame law and order in a more efficient manner. What we have now is laughable. I don't even look at system security status right now when hauling because it doesn't matter - everywhere is potentially dangerous, nowhere is safe - not even inside stations.

So I completely understand why some PvE players would not feel like playing in Open. But the answer is not to tack on a new mode. The answer is to fix the flaws that make Open so unappealing to PvE players, and fix them in such a way that PvP players do not feel excluded. It can be done. They are in my opinion on the right track. But, as everything else, it takes more development time.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Are we hopeful that 1.3 may change some of this?

PowerPlay does sound like a faction overhaul or some sort of expanded reputation system - they've hinted as much with their new bounty system, AI improvements minor faction rep becoming a major thing. As with all developer talk, I've learned to take things with a grain of salt and not expect too much too soon though.

It would be grand if they overhauled the mission system as well for 1.3, but something tells me that's likely not the case yet.

 

[Meritz]

Just a small comment on this:

...we have a player base that want to take control of areas of space to call there own just like in Eve online and in a game like Elite it doesn't work...

As a sci-fi sandbox game, it is only normal that ED will attract a certain portion of EvE players. A lot of us have been looking for something more personal than what EvE can offer, and of course, there are, right now, only two "realistic" sci-fi sandbox games available: ED and EvE. Not a lot of choice.

Also, ED is all about freedom. That's VERY attractive to EvE players. And it is normal for human beings, not players, to mark their turf, band together etc. I agree that ED is not, nor will likely ever be conductive to the sort of territorial gameplay EvE sports, but that doesn't mean players will stop trying to control territory.

I expect them to adapt with time. You can't really do it on the level you can in EvE. Even if all parties stick to Open on an honor system, no chokepoints, lack of logistics etc. will eventually filter out the players who are in it because they want to build empires of their own.

But do expect players to gradually band around NPC factions and form rivalry around that. And I see nothing wrong with that. Some of the best, most epic and even meaningful PvP I've ever participated in EvE revolved not around player factions, but around NPC ones. Goonswarms and Bands of Brothers come and go, but the war between slavers and former slaves is eternal.

 

[Major Plonker]

Get an official option for this on the main menu, a player who bought the game just like the rest of us shouldn't be having to administer this.

Also, more players would use the group if they knew the group existed.

 

[Arubeto]

I do think that a huge enhancement in both NPC AI in general and specifically police response in secure areas and around protected stations is in order. Players should feel like there are safe places in the galaxy. PvP in the form of unsanctioned piracy and murder should be very difficult in such areas. Not outright impossible, but much, much more difficult and punishing than it is now. Unsanctioned murder should also push players firmly in the outlaw gameplay with its own drawbacks - those who want to live on the edge of society should live on the edge of society, not get "Welcome, Commander" from high-sec stations.

That's why I argue against a separate Open PvE. I believe the existing Open mode can be enhanced to the benefit of all players, PvE and PvP alike. Giving more content, better direction and a feel of continuity and logic to the game universe, where rule of law exists and is something to be respected. And where outlaws choosing the path of murder and capital crime do get to play in the same world but with consequences befitting such gameplay choices.

I agree 100% with you concerning the improvement of NPC AI. Making systems with different security levels actually feel different is a very important aspect of this (and in a limited way already works, I think - see the interdiction rates Captain Kremmen tested in https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=115573).

I also think FD's recent idea to add "bounty cooldowns" is a step in the right direction - even though most people just reacted with a "Oh, I can't prevent hitting friendly targets, so you are killing the game for me with bounty cooldowns".

I love the game at the moment but only while playing in the private group where we have that stability and trust element and PvP is allowed in combat zones.

I think a main problem with PvP in ED is that people who concentrate on trading more often than not have no desire to engage PvP with player pirates (or with anyone, for that matter) since they are always on the "receiving" end. Player pirates (and bounty hunters) on the other hand would very much like to do PvP with player traders, since they are integral for their game play (which isn't the case the other way around - player traders can pursue their activities very well without any interaction with pirates).

I think it's this asymmetry between roles that prevents meaningful interaction between pirates and traders in the sense FD has envisioned these roles (they work very well in a single-player environment, but not so well in a multi-player game, since players don't always play by the rules)

the main problem with Elite in its current state is that FD have given us a very thin veil of a player vs environment game with its factions and lore but no content to back it up correctly,
what is left is a free for all where pvp is not played on a level playing field, we have a player base that want to take control of areas of space to call there own just like in Eve online and in a game like Elite it doesn't work, Elite was released to soon and it has suffered from that.

I absolutely agree with this sentiment. I enjoy the game very much, too, but I think FD really should add content that both, players who like to play alone as well as players who like to play with others - either cooperative or competitive - can enjoy.

I do understand that FD put a focus on multiplayer mechanics with 1.1 (community goals) and 1.2 (wings) since it's important for many players and was seriously lacking with the original 1.0 release, but I'd very much welcome it if their coming efforts would now enrich the content of the world instead of adding more MP focused gameplay mechanics. Keeping this in mind, I have high hopes for 1.3 (PowerPlay) to actually add more depth to the game world and make the factions etc. in it more believable.

Another very important aspect of making the game world more convincing is the improvement of NPCs, IMO. People who don't want to interact with other players - no matter the reason - should have options to interact with the game world and it's inhabitants in a rich way. Hiring NPC wingmen, communicating with NPCs, NPC passengers, visual representations of NPCs and consistency would all go a long way to add complexity and atmosphere to the game.

 

[Meritz]

I think a main problem with PvP in ED is that people who concentrate on trading more often than not have no desire to engage PvP with player pirates (or with anyone, for that matter) since they are always on the "receiving" end. Player pirates (and bounty hunters) on the other hand would very much like to do PvP with player traders, since they are integral for their game play (which isn't the case the other way around - player traders can pursue their activities very well without any interaction with pirates).

I think it's this asymmetry between roles that prevents meaningful interaction between pirates and traders in the sense FD has envisioned these roles (they work very well in a single-player environment, but not so well in a multi-player game, since players don't always play by the rules)

Concerning trader vs pirate gameplay. Traders have a very powerful weapon in their arsenal that can certainly even out the playing field, but is unfortunately not available to them right now - a way to employ those huge giant piles of money. There is a reason why trading should be the most lucrative career in the game, and that reason is missing: using your money to leverage things in your favor. Right now it's just a quick way to fancy ships. There's literally nothing else to spend it on!

Imagine if a trader could use their massive profits to:

• hire a small posse of bodyguards
• buy out the local police (price depending on government type and sec status) so that they come to their aid *instantly* - the more you pay the better the protection you get
• purchase powerful and expensive gear that's just out of reach for someone who wants to play a criminal (not just because they lack money, but also because they're a frikkin criminal) - military grade engines and shields, restricted EWAR modules that scramble their HUD and targetting and so on)
• buy expensive (and illegal if caught) transponder spoofs that make them look like an NPC

And so on. Sure, you could say "but why should traders spend all that money just to defend themselves" - well, that's up to the player. What else is money for? Pirates buy their pirating ships and weapons with their money... well, you shove a squad of heavily armed mercs down their throat and a few bought-out police Anacondas for desserts with yours. And you have more.

Together with efficient security ratings, and a mission and trading system that places more lucrative deals/routes in more dangerous areas, this would cover everyone: starting players and traders can ply the secure routes for less money, more ambitious ones can either go for volume trade in secure systems or for more dangerous routes and put their money to work for them. And pirates get their targets too; they can choose to try their luck hard and fast in more secure systems - which mostly wouldn't work - or hunt down lucrative stuff out there on the frontier, but always be wary of suddenly being faced with a small army instead of the lone trader they expected.

 

[Robert Maynard]

• purchase powerful and expensive gear that's just out of reach for someone who wants to play a criminal (not just because they lack money, but also because they're a frikkin criminal) - military grade engines and shields, restricted EWAR modules that scramble their HUD and targetting and so on)
• buy expensive (and illegal if caught) transponder spoofs that make them look like an NPC

As there are no fixed roles, any player can accrue sufficient credits to purchase anything that they set their mind to - even if that means doing so in an activity that is not their desired occupation but is deemed worth it to earn what they need to.

.... any equipment created with a particular role in mind can (and will) end up being used by players in other roles - these would suit pirates and bounty hunters very nicely indeed, for example.

 

[SiriusSeven]

-- edit --

I misread the post. Deleted.

 

[Meritz]

As there are no fixed roles, any player can accrue sufficient credits to purchase anything that they set their mind to - even if that means doing so in an activity that is not their desired occupation but is deemed worth it to earn what they need to.

.... any equipment created with a particular role in mind can (and will) end up being used by players in other roles - these would suit pirates and bounty hunters very nicely indeed, for example.

Except pirates, as criminals with no access to specialized markets where you can purchase such gear would be out of luck. Bounty hunters might get their hands on some, yes. You could even play nice until decked out, then turn foul, but that's easily solved with EWAR modules requiring some sort of ammo, or with modules degrading with use and eventually requiring replacement (as I said, there are virtually NO money sinks past a certain stage in the game right now).

As for transponders, I'm always for sneaky gameplay - but again, with consequences. Getting caught with one would be quite bad for your reputation with the authorities. Pirates might not care, of course.

And the prices might be prohibitive for anyone who doesn't trade a lot.

These are just quick ideas. Haven't spent a lot of time thinking them through. The point is to give traders an edge with their theme on it, and their theme is lots of money.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Except pirates, as criminals with no access to specialized markets where you can purchase such gear would be out of luck. Bounty hunters might get their hands on some, yes. You could even play nice until decked out, then turn foul, but that's easily solved with EWAR modules requiring some sort of ammo.

As for transponders, I'm always for sneaky gameplay - but again, with consequences. Getting caught with one would be quite bad for your reputation with the authorities. Pirates might not care, of course.

And the prices might be prohibitive for anyone who doesn't trade a lot.

These are just quick ideas. Haven't spent a lot of time thinking them through. The point is to give traders an edge with their theme on it, and their theme is lots of money.

Careful pirates could make sure that they are only ever out of favour with one of the major factions - essentially privateering against opponents of the faction that they ensure that they remain friendly with. This would probably allow free access to any ammunition for such devices.

I get the feeling that transponders as proposed would be more likely to drive players out of open than keep them in - at least at the moment players can trivially identify when they are in an instance with another players.

To touch on a portion of your previous post that I omitted to comment on - NPC wingmen should (hopefully) make it into the game at some point - for those players who have trust issues hiring players to fulfil the role (although there were betrayal mechanics proposed as part of the Wingmen proposal....).

 

[Meritz]

Careful pirates could make sure that they are only ever out of favour with one of the major factions - essentially privateering against opponents of the faction that they ensure that they remain friendly with. This would probably allow free access to any ammunition for such devices.

That would depend on how privateering works. Privateering is not something you just decide to do - you have to get a letter of marque from a sponsoring faction, and there could be all sort of gameplay choices involved in that (for example you're KOS in the other faction), which means you turn up red to any players in that faction's territory, can't dock at the stations in their systems, police and navy patrols actively hunt you down in SC, etc. so you do pay the price for going privateer.

As I said, this is just a quick idea. It's easy to pick apart since I haven't spent a lot of time trying to come up with a good design for it.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

That would depend on how privateering works. Privateering is not something you just decide to do - you have to get a letter of marque from a sponsoring faction, and there could be all sort of gameplay choices involved in that (for example you're KOS in the other faction), which means you turn up red to any players in that faction's territory, can't dock at the stations in their systems, police and navy patrols actively hunt you down in SC, etc. so you do pay the price for going privateer.

As I said, this is just a quick idea. It's easy to pick apart since I haven't spent a lot of time trying to come up with a good design for it.

I like the idea of much of what you propose.......................... but the way i see it none of this needs to be in place of the current grouping mechanics (even though it would I believe be enough to bring me personally back to ALL). I did have a dabble in all over the weekend again. It was fine, I didnt have any problems, though it did seem more stuttery that i am used to. This was using the oculus rift which does tend to amplify such issues.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

interesting....

I am just catching up with 10 for the chairman in star citizen (I am backing that too) , and there is a little offshoot here 10 for the producers.

and this seems highly relevant here. I always considered SC to be more of a PvP game than elite (maybe incorrectly but that is not my point)

however according to the below 80% of Arena commanders are playing PvE either solo or co-op...... and this is a game mode which really is way more geared to PvP, because outside of PvP there really is not a lot to arena commander at the moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lstuaA4WsVA&index=2&list=PLVct2QDhDrB2LmbRq06t8sChjbU3SsDeM#t=16m50s

so to me that says that PvE is still really important.

edit... ps total aside... its not a bloody "verse" a verse is part of a song!. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!