Open PvE

[[VR] Mad Mike]

@Meritz I agree that most of your suggestions would make for a better game AND it would personally mean *I* would go back into ALL... but that being said, to suggest that PvE modes invalid because it takes dev time away from ALL, that is as biased as if someone was to say, that they should can ALL fullstop and force everyone to play PvE, after all the whole balancing issues as well as the net issues themselves take a lot of time to sort out, and no one would combat log to screw up a PvPer if there was no PvP to begin with.

Yesterday I saw that 80% of people currently playing Arena commander - a game mode which if anything I would say is geared for PvP were playing PvE, either alone or in Co-op

That if anything shows us imo that PvE is even more important that I thought......... and if FD have any sense - and they have shown that they do with the whole structure of the game- they have to be catered for.

Like I said, do not get me wrong, most of the suggestions for ALL make good sense, and have the bonus of improving all modes, and indeed I think we agree on more than we disagree...... but to say PvE needs to go or not be supported is crazy talk imo.

It is my belief that PvPers who selectively pick human targets over all others where possible are the niche group in this game not PvEer, its just that they are imo very vocal, and much like 1 person with an uzi in a room packed full of unarmed people they have a huge effect on their surroundings.

 

[Sendraks]

It takes away developer resources from other, more important issues. It is expensive.

These are not arguments against the "need" for PvE Open, only against delivering it.

It doesn't address primary problems between PvE and PvP rulesets. It splits the community *firmly* apart instead of trying to bring it together.[/

Identifying problems which PvE Open isn't intended to solve is not an argument against having PvE Open.

I don't disagree that changes to the crime and punishment system are necessary (and your suggestions are well made) if Elite Dangerous is to be anything other than "Elite Anarchy" but that isn't an argument against having PvE Open. You could argue that "well you can either fix crime and punishment or you can have PvE Open" but that isn't a comment anyone but the devs have the authority to make.

It is difficult to implement without compromising core design of the game.

This appears to be a fudge of the first two points, conflating difficulty of implementation with an assertion about the game's core design.

No, there is no need for open PvE.

Do you have any arguments to support this?

Or rather, there is need for a lot of things, and open PvE mode is quite close to the bottom of that list.

This makes more sense to me and the existence of the Mobius PvE group does not, to my mind, make the creation of Open PvE anything like a priority.

 

[Meritz]

The common theme to many of your arguments is that Open PvE is a low priority issue, far down on the list, and not worth developer time in light of everything else.

The thing is, we've all got different lists in our head. Open PvE is low on your list, and near the top on mine. Unless you work for FD, it's all a matter of opinion.

That's why I keep trying to explain things to you from a game designer perspective. No, I do not work for FD. But I do know my game design. If they want to keep this game rolling, they have *way*, WAY more important issues to sort out - and soon - than adding another game mode. Especially a game mode that requires so many core changes and is not even posed to solve bigger problems.

This game has maybe a month or two before a lot of players start hitting the Wall - a serious design issue that will see players find themselves in a vacuum with literally nothing left to do or strive for. Some can cope, but a lot of players will just up and leave (and possibly spill vitriolic comments all over social networks). Combine with inherent lack of social features and a general lack of depth of content and it is not difficult to see problems in the near future for this game.

This has nothing to do with my personal priorities.

 

[Loetmichel]

Would it make ED a full-on PvE game? Not even close. But ED was never meant to be such a game in the first place.

And thats where you are entirely wrong. We were promised an Offline mode. Which is per definition PvE. After that proved not viable we were left with Solo for that
pourpose. So dont say it wasnt desinged as PvE when i fact is had been from the start, at least as an option.

Point made, nudd said.

 

[gary.brain]

An easy solution here would be to get a Dev to create a group which is auto accept and then have the Moderators to have the ability to kick/ban players from the group who PvP, this way its not dependent on the players staying.....

 

[SiriusSeven]

That's why I keep trying to explain things to you from a game designer perspective. No, I do not work for FD. But I do know my game design. If they want to keep this game rolling, they have *way*, WAY more important issues to sort out - and soon - than adding another game mode. Especially a game mode that requires so many core changes and is not even posed to solve bigger problems.

This game has maybe a month or two before a lot of players start hitting the Wall - a serious design issue that will see players find themselves in a vacuum with literally nothing left to do or strive for. Some can cope, but a lot of players will just up and leave (and possibly spill vitriolic comments all over social networks). Combine with inherent lack of social features and a general lack of depth of content and it is not difficult to see problems in the near future for this game.

This has nothing to do with my personal priorities.

I appreciate your passion for the game. Mobius isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and I'm a reasonably patient man. I can wait a few months if I am given compelling evidence that doing so will substantially improve the game in the interim, and doing so is a survive/fail situation. However, patience is bounded. Open PvE should happen eventually -- preferably soon (tm).

 

[Meritz]

Yesterday I saw that 80% of people currently playing Arena commander - a game mode which if anything I would say is geared for PvP were playing PvE, either alone or in Co-op

That if anything shows us imo that PvE is even more important that I thought......... and if FD have any sense - and they have shown that they do with the whole structure of the game- they have to be catered for.

That's the thing. PvE *itself* is of way higher priority than a PvE Open mode. This game has incredibly shallow PvE content. It also suffers from problems (mostly due to being obviously unfinished and full of placeholder mechanics) such as linear ship progression and lack of money sinks past a certain stage both in player skill and ingame assets. All of which contribute to the Wall effect - a point in the gameplay where there is no sense in playing any more. A *very bad* thing for a sandbox game with 400 billion stars.

MMO games usually circumvent this with stuff like Skinner box mechanics or rich social features, but ED actually doesn't do any of that (or better said, tries to do one of those rather ineptly).

So you get your PvE mode. And then a few months later everybody leaves because PvE itself is not there. That's some backwards priorities, no offense to anyone.

 

[W0OCQCK]

@Meritz

Logical and well stated. Repped for that.

I suggested a similar system long time ago where each player had a stigma or infamy that could not be paid down or zeroed. Kill a clean CMDR and your standing in the community would go down, sort of thing.

I'm speaking for myself when I say I'll play in Open when the disruptive elements are controlled. That is when the out-right cheaters and kill-thrill pilots are leashed and suffer penalties for their negative play. My losing several weeks of work/gains in literally a few seconds (for no reason other than lulz) is the reason I left Open. I want to play on a level playing field with everyone else, nothing more, nothing less.

Robert Maynard's statement of "Nothing* that Frontier can do will encourage all players into open," is correct (emphasis added). However, I'll bet 80% of players in solo and private groups would come back given the right game balance.

Ya see I just disagree with this. No disrespect intended here, your response was thought full, well composed. I just think any honest PVE style player would always select a, "designated PVE mode" in place of an Open "free for all mode" no matter how well it's balanced. This is where the conundrum lays, PVP players feel that PVE players always need to be forced into an open mode, to be there convenient targets. This is what 99% of all the hoopla is about on the PVP side of things, "there wont be any easy convenient targets at hand" if a formal PVE mode is provided.

It's funny getting most of the self proclaimed PVP players to focus on playing with and against other PVP players here is kind of like herding cats. They just have to have the unwilling, un-consenting PVE guy there to be there punching dummies. GO figure?

 

[SiriusSeven]

This game has incredibly shallow PvE content. It also suffers from problems (mostly due to being obviously unfinished and full of placeholder mechanics) such as linear ship progression and lack of money sinks past a certain stage both in player skill and ingame assets.

You forgot: placeholder mining and lack of passenger missions despite 2 ships designed to carry non-frozen people

Ok....steam released... back on topic.

 

[Mobius]

An easy solution here would be to get a Dev to create a group which is auto accept and then have the Moderators to have the ability to kick/ban players from the group who PvP, this way its not dependent on the players staying.....

that function is pretty much in place already, when I created the group I had the option to have a auto accept or make it private and im pretty much the game admin for that group and kick players when its needed.
.
I would hate to turn Elite into a Eve clone but Eve has done things right regarding pvp and Pve, the police in that game are brutal and as such protect players that have no interest in the PvP side of things. its been mentioned that the Elite galaxy is pretty much in full anarchy at the moment and players can do anything they like, the factions within the game are a thin veil to give the impression that the universe has some sort of political structure, but take away factions and flags and you will find that nothing has changed, the all group remains in a anarchic state, until the NPC police can protect a system the groups will remain separate.

as my previous proposal shows things need to change to allow both group to play in the same environment. obviously this would be up for discussion but its what I feel needs to be looked at.

My Approach to bringing everyone together and playing in the all group
would require a hand full of things to be implemented.
.
.​

• like eve online secure space the NPC police need to be quick and deadly as a response force while in faction space,

.

• players must choose one of 4 factions Empire, Federation, Alliance, None, missions should be available for players to swap factions to prove their loyalty, being part of a faction and flying in that's faction space would have the benefits of having the NPC police respond quickly, if you are not part of that faction then response times are reduced. fellow players of the same faction will show up as green while other factions will show up as the normal orange. this I would hope bring a greater sense of belonging and identity,

this would give pvp players a target to attack seeing none faction players in there space, but they would still have to deal with the NPC police if they attacked while in
secure space, players changing faction would lose all influence with their previous faction as well as ranks, meaning that if you swapped from the empire to federation
while flying a clipper you wouldn't get insurance to by a new clipper, no biggy just sell it
.

• players that have a wanted status from killing another player from another faction wont show up as being wanted to their own faction unless a scan is made. bounty hunters will need to purchase a licence to kill wanted players to protect them from their faction NPC police, and obviously would also need to contact the pilots federation to claim their bounty's. it would probably be simpler to have the one licence to kill that covers all factions against the police force.

.

• faction space would need to show security ratings, showing high medium low and anarchy.

players can still destabilise systems via missions thus making systems secure or anarchy, systems at war with conflict zones would still have a deadly NPC police force
but response times would be reduced until the system stabilises or enters a brief period of anarchy for a short time then a new government is brought in, the system
would be re rated as secure starting with low and eventually returning back to its previous security state.
.

• players who choose a faction can pirate in the opposing faction space or anarchy space, if they pirate there own faction they will begin to lose great amounts of influence and will eventually be aligned to no one. players killing a fellow faction player will receive a murder bounty and then be aligned to the none faction forcing the player into low security space.

.

• to appease the pirates Anarchy space stations would need to entice players to journey in there, unique missions with great reward to venture into high security space, unique trade items that sell well in faction black markets, something that makes it worthwhile to venture into anarchy space.

.

• low security space and anarchy space should obviously sit on the boarders of faction space, and unique faction trade goods should bring high profits in the opposing faction systems, this will entice traders looking for a high profit to venture between faction space. traders not wanting to risk losing cargo would remain in the inner systems under the protection of their faction.

.

• the founders system would need to be relocated to a central position between all 3 major factions to allow access to all players.

.
basically players need to feel part of something bigger than themselves and uniting under a flag will focus players into something much larger than just random killing.

 

[Cosmos]

Having listened and been part of the many arguments over the years on the PvE/PvP topic its pretty clear that were not going to convince those who are ideologically against any form of PvP to change their view. When it comes to having people enjoy the game as they please I have no problem with that. The larger issue is how this all affects the game which is where the important issue sits.

My personal view is that without the dynamic of coming across players, and I was rather epically chased through 4 systems last night and interdicted numerous times by the same Wing (awesome stuff!), the game is just a dull grind. Its not for me to say what others should find enjoyable but I am left at a complete loss to understand that people are actually enjoying the PvE content only. The mission system is pretty miserable and much of the game involves grinding a heavily scripted environment. It looks nice but and the game mechanics are great but I would have long died of boredom if all I had done was grind the background game. And it is a grind.

I do wonder what Sandro is going to do because I get the impression its going to be more stick (against being a bandit) rather than accepting that bad guy play styles should be incorporated into the game - it makes for interesting content that far exceeds anything Frontier have yet to deliver and possibly will. I could imagine myself as a bounty hunter nailing player bandits and chasing them across the galaxy but if the game is constantly telling you it doesn't want the bad guys (and I think ED needs them) then acting in such a way only feeds the anti-pvp agenda, and paying the bills by bounty hunting players will be a dead end because there won't be any bad guys.

I think people are looking at it all wrong and appear to have a serious amount of baggage from another space game we shall not mention. Rather than cry griefer and scream PvP, I'd hope people would just look at players as interesting content and a challenge. Its a sign that the PvE game is a faceroll however, because its simply too easy a game when only playing the developer content - you meet a player who attacks you and they aren't a push over. So is this issue really about not wanting any PvP or preferring the game to be ridiculously easy? I strongly suspect its the latter.

All those people playing in the Mobius group are players I will never see and because the developer content is so easy they'll never need my help.. They won't be making a distress call, or asking for a Wing escort through a dangerous area. And with that so many interesting game situations are lost, and not just for me but those who are hiding away.

I have a few people on my friends list who are ALWAYS in private group and so I can never pop by and say hi.. Before the recent update I wondered if the game just wasnt matching me when I turned up at their location, but no, they were playing in their own little bubble. Its a big galaxy out there and so I really find it hard to understand why people even feel the need to hide in a private bubble, because once you leave particular areas seeing a player is a rare thing and in my experience out off the beaten track players are really friendly or simply going about their business.

/shrug

 

[Mobius]

maybe the introduction of the ASBO Sidewinder is needed.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

.

I do wonder what Sandro is going to do because I get the impression its going to be more stick (against being a bandit) rather than accepting that bad guy play styles should be incorporated into the game - it makes for interesting content that far exceeds anything Frontier have yet to deliver and possibly will. I could imagine myself as a bounty hunter nailing player bandits and chasing them across the galaxy but if the game is constantly telling you it doesn't want the bad guys (and I think ED needs them) then acting in such a way only feeds the anti-pvp agenda.


/shrug

I do not think it is about the game not needing bad guys.... but it needs them in the right place...... if you want to be a Player killer you should be on the fringes of space possibly on a small orbital platform where you can plan your terrorist murder plots (RPing here not literally calling anyone a terrorist). Pirates would shun you, as would most clean people, but some would need the services of a contract killer. maybe you are not a psycho at all, but that is the role you could play if you need to get a hit out on someone.. and your actions could start wars if done correctly (there were iirc some devout religious factions in frontier / 1st encounters which had quite the reputation .... or maybe I am confusing my space games, i am not sure).

A pirate should be living in anarchy systems, and trying to quickly get in and out with as much loot as they can before the cops arrive, in high sec space for as short a period as possible, and NOT be welcome in high sec areas.... alternatively they should be hanging around anarchy systems which sell the rare items** which encourage traders to "chance it". Some pirate systems however should offer bonuses to pirates however.

** No I do not mean Lave or Leesti, these are both high sec space and it is nuts what happens there with the police not giving a monkeys about it, BUT I WOULD suggest nerfing the profits of the rares in safe space and adding the more profitable rare items to anarchy systems.

but then this is the PvE thread but then all this stuff would enrich the PvE game just as much as the ALL game.

 

[W0OCQCK]

Having listened and been part of the many arguments over the years on the PvE/PvP topic its pretty clear that were not going to convince those who are ideologically against any form of PvP to change their view. When it comes to having people enjoy the game as they please I have no problem with that. The larger issue is how this all affects the game which is where the important issue sits.

My personal view is that without the dynamic of coming across players, and I was rather epically chased through 4 systems last night and interdicted numerous times by the same Wing (awesome stuff!), the game is just a dull grind. Its not for me to say what others should find enjoyable but I am left at a complete loss to understand that people are actually enjoying the PvE content only. The mission system is pretty miserable and much of the game involves grinding a heavily scripted environment. It looks nice but and the game mechanics are great but I would have long died of boredom if all I had done was grind the background game. And it is a grind.

I do wonder what Sandro is going to do because I get the impression its going to be more stick (against being a bandit) rather than accepting that bad guy play styles should be incorporated into the game - it makes for interesting content that far exceeds anything Frontier have yet to deliver and possibly will. I could imagine myself as a bounty hunter nailing player bandits and chasing them across the galaxy but if the game is constantly telling you it doesn't want the bad guys (and I think ED needs them) then acting in such a way only feeds the anti-pvp agenda.

I think people are looking at it all wrong and appear to have a serious amount of baggage from another space game we shall not mention. Rather than cry griefer and scream PvP, I'd hope people would just look at players as interesting content and a challenge. Its a sign that the PvE game is a faceroll however, because its simply too easy a game when only playing the developer content - you meet a player who attacks you and they aren't a push over. So is this issue really about avoiding PvP or wanting a seriously easy game?

All those people playing in the Mobius group are players I will never see and because the developer content is so easy they'll never need my help.. They won't be making a distress call, or asking for a Wing escort through a dangerous area. And with that so many interesting game situations are lost, and not just for me but those who are hiding away.

I have a few people on my friends list who are ALWAYS in private group and so I can never pop by and say hi.. Before the recent update I wondered if the game just wasnt matching me when I turned up at their location, but no, they were playing in their own little bubble. Its a big galaxy out there and so I really find it hard to understand why people even feel the need to hide in a private bubble, because once you leave particular areas seeing a player is a rare thing and in my experience out off the beaten track players are really friendly or simply going about their business.

/shrug

So what your saying is I really need your content, even though I don't know you, and don't want to know you? Your saying I'm just ruining the game, making it much lesser than it could be because I just want to be left alone, or in a designated PVE group with like minded players, even though virtually all sorts of other games do just fine, and do just that.

I really don't mean you any disrespect here mate. I just can't get my mind around it that's all. Your and my visions and logic simply don't align here that all.

You know it's really no big deal. I think I would kinda like meeting a random friendly commander from time to time. But if it just aint in the cards, then when and if "Mobius" caves in, I'll just move to solo.

 

[SiriusSeven]

My personal view is that without the dynamic of coming across players, and I was rather epically chased through 4 systems last night and interdicted numerous times by the same Wing (awesome stuff!), the game is just a dull grind.

...

All those people playing in the Mobius group are players I will never see and because the developer content is so easy they'll never need my help.. They won't be making a distress call, or asking for a Wing escort through a dangerous area. And with that so many interesting game situations are lost, and not just for me but those who are hiding away.

...

I really find it hard to understand why people even feel the need to hide in a private bubble

I think you misunderstand some of our point of view. We want to come across other players. We want to send out distress beacons and come to people's rescue. We want to co-operate in wings. We don't want to hide in a private bubble.

Unfortunately you are right, Solo and Group are tiny and small-ish private bubbles that disenfranchise PvE players by limiting their ability to interact (positively) with other players. We want to be social. Mobius is a perfect example of this. Why do you think 6000+ people joined a group rather than going Solo? The problem with Mobius, as stated earlier, is one of discovery. How many players would be interested, but don't visit the forum, and will never learn about the group? We've heard from a few forum members in this thread alone who just discovered Mobius. The group is great, but the PvE playstyle could be better (i.e., more populated) with official support.

Maybe I should have named the thread "Open Co-op"?

 

[Cosmos]

So what your saying is I really need your content, even though I don't know you, and don't want to know you? Your saying I'm just ruining the game, making it much lesser than it could be because I just want to be left alone, or in a designated PVE group with like minded players, even though virtually all sorts of other games do just fine, and do just that.

I really don't mean you any disrespect here mate. I just can't get my mind around it that's all. Your and my visions and logic simply don't align here that all.

You know it's really no big deal. I think I would kinda like meeting a random friendly commander from time to time. But if it just aint in the cards, then when and if "Mobius" caves in, I'll just move to solo.

I'm simply stating what I and many, MANY other people believe and your argument simply twists my points; strawman. But you know, I highlighted an area in your reply which I find somewhat revealing. I really don't care if you don't wish to know ME, and lets not make this personal hey, but it seems you're not interested in knowing anyone. This is meant to be an MMO you know

 

[shadragon]

Ya see I just disagree with this. No disrespect intended here, your response was thought full, well composed.

This is how the forums should work. Even if we disagree, discussion can be carried out in even tones. Repped for that.

My stated position is my opinion alone. I said I was talking about myself and I am in no way a representative of Mobius (beyond being an active member), PvE players, nor do I claim to speak for those members. Yes, there will always be a PvE group for those that want that. However, I see the merit in having more people in Open and one day I hope to be one of them again.

In a balanced game there is no "free for all" without consequences. Those consequences will marginalize the troublesome players and eventually neutralize them. I'm not knocking piracy or bounty hunting which are viable parts of the game. However, the few who disrupt the game today without penalty are splitting the player base. Mobius membership is a barometer of game balance. The more players that join show a dissatisfaction in the game balance. Some are pure PvE players, but not all.

Edit: I should point out that I'm specifically speaking about disruptive players, not PvP players in general.

Overall, I do agree with your post. Some of the PvP crowd do tend to avoid equal combat with other groups and wait for an unarmed trader to wander through. Which is strange because I don't remember my Hauler being so well armed that it takes a Vulture, FDL and a pair of A-spec Cobras to take it down. (shrug)

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

maybe the introduction of the ASBO Sidewinder is needed.

Can't rep you any more.

 

[W0OCQCK]

I'm simply stating what I and many, MANY other people believe and you are using Strawmaning my post. But you know, I highlighted an area in your reply which I find somewhat revealing. I really don't care if you don't wish to know ME, and lets not make this personal hey, but it seems you're not interested in knowing anyone. This is meant to be an MMO you know

Then why do you keep forcing your self on me? There are also many, many people that don't want to have anything to do with PVP players. Your just ignoring all those players to permote you own agenda. Try to remember ED's core design, "Play it the way you want".

Please try to stretch just a little here please, my response, just as hard as this may be to believe, wasn't meant to be offensive, or derogatory. Sincerely, I mean you no disrespect here. I'm just stretching here to help you try to see a different prospective, that's all. The game was advertised to allow us to play as we want from day one of the kick starter! I want or would like to have a designated PVE Open mode for myself, and like minded players. That's all.

 

[Loetmichel]

So you get your PvE mode. And then a few months later everybody leaves because PvE itself is not there. That's some backwards priorities, no offense to anyone.

No, Thats not possible, because everybody is already driven off by the lacking mode.

("everybody" used in the same generalising way you do here)

You may be apt in game design. Are you apt in predicting any player base percentage? I.E: it seems you believe "the few" PvE players are not the majority of the gamers here
and no loss to the rest of the community. Maybe you are right, but i and many others think its the other way around. The more "cooperative" players are driven into solo
and eventually bored off the more the game detoirates into something resembling Unreal Tournament in Space.
And that would be sad because Elite Dangerous has so much potential.

Just my opinion.

 

[Cosmos]

Then why do you keep forcing your self on me? There are also many, many people that don't want to have anything to do with PVP players. Your just ignoring all those players to permote you own agenda. Try to remember ED's core design, "Play it the way you want".

Please try to stretch just a little here please, my response, just as hard as this may be to believe, wasn't meant to be offensive, or derogatory. Sincerely, I mean you no disrespect here. I'm just stretching here to help you try to see a different prospective, that's all. The game was advertised to allow us to play as we want from day one of the kick starter! I want or would like to have a designated PVE Open mode for myself, and like minded players. That's all.

I'm certainly not attempting to force myself on anyone, yet I think the argument for playing as you want was that you'd be free to play in game as you wanted. But yeah Frontier might have promised everything to everyone, play it your way is open to interpretation.. but when I read the background info for the game, it was one set against a backdrop of raw anarchy, where you could be an assasin, bounty hunter, pirate, trader (making vast riches IF YOU MADE THE JOURNEY ). The last point is only relevant in the context of other players being around atm.

I long argued in the DDF for a PvE/PvP split. Frontier insisted on their group system and so thats what we have. But over the years arguments were made for the split and then someone else would come along and say they wanted to have the flexibility to opt in Open and private group as they please, even though they were 'mostly' PvE but do PvP only when they wanted. So from those who like emergent open player based content we couldn't win.Many of the 'compromises' appeared to go one way.

I really think we'd be having a different conversation right now if the game was actually challenging and posed a real danger..