Outnumbered PvP - Testing my new build!

[Obnoxious_Gamer]

If we accept PvP is broken by META, and if we accept that 'balancing' is itself a balancing act that can go wrong, would an in-game solution; to have the Shipyards update their designs on a regular basis, be an appropriate response?

For instance:

Lakon gets regular complaints from customers that the T9 keeps exploding (nice work on the escape pods though man, they're frickin awesome). Having plenty of data on hand to detect the problem, Lakon notices that the T9 usually explodes in response to heavy fire from other ships. Lakon also notices that very few CMDRs use shields in their T9 and that very few T9 CMDRs put up much of a fight. Rethinking their design, Lakon sacrifice some of their Harpoints in favour of better thrusters and more utility modules, and fit shields as a Core Module, without sacrificing Cargo Max capability.

Meanwhile, Core Dynamics gets a ton of complaints from its CMDRs that in-spite of its Play Boy image, the FDL is actually a better ship for 1-on-1 combat, than their own built-for-combat gunships and fighters. In response to their customers fleeing for greener pastures, Core Dynamics has no choice but to update its ships. The Vulture, heavily down on power as standard, gets a new C5 PP, balanced in the Vulture's frame by losing a C1 internal or perhaps by changing the Class 5 internal to a Class 4.

This didn't seem so intensely a.n.al (really forums?) as I was considering it, but now that it's typed out...?

Anyhoo;

The result is that the Shipyards force PvP'ers to innovate and find the new META on a regular basis, whilst giving Open PvE'ers some regular, if brief, respite from 'insta-death'. No doubt, the Shipyards will occasionally f*ck it up, leading to numerous 'x is broken' threads but what's new? They'll also be in a position to recall and update their designs on a fairly frequent basis.

Y'know what? That's a fantastic idea. It'd also be mostly impossible to implement without causing complaints from any dedicated PvPers that their ship was now "outdated."

It would make a lot of sense and give the game a lot of variety, but it would also cause a forumstorm of epic proportions.

 

[Andovar]

With the right modifications, a shieldless ship can withstand heat. With 2.2, silent running has been eliminated as a combat tactic, so emissive will not matter and Missiles have a proper counter in 2.2 with PD and ECM being fixed.

Ok, PvP noob here, and not in the 2.2 beta, so be gentle.
I'm just curious, what's the 2.2 change coming that invalidates silent running in combat?

 

[Ozram]

Ok, PvP noob here, and not in the 2.2 beta, so be gentle.
I'm just curious, what's the 2.2 change coming that invalidates silent running in combat?

Silent running combat is largely irrelevant now. Emissive weapons + the fact nearly all effects work on hull as well as the fact missiles do serious module damage is what has it struggling now. Emissive effect lasts a long time and seeker missiles are brutal on modules. Those two alone make a huge dent in the viability of SL combat.

 

[Truesilver]

Ok, PvP noob here, and not in the 2.2 beta, so be gentle.
I'm just curious, what's the 2.2 change coming that invalidates silent running in combat?

It's called 'propagation of hostility', iirc.

In English:

Silent running was always sub-optimal 1v1 because as soon as you fire on another Cmdr, not only does your ship become targetable, at any range, all of your modules (eg power distributor, power plant) also become targetable.

However, silent running came into its own in wing fighting. In an 8 v 8, being targetable by (mostly) only one Cmdr, not eight, meant you could stay alive notwithstanding the principal danger in wing fighting, 'primary focus', by which the whole enemy force is ordered via voice comms to attack each enemy 8v1. The OP, Cmdr Z4.Mafia, is famously good at staying alive in these situations.

But ... in 2.2, when you fire on an enemy, if they are winged you and your modules will become targetable by the entire enemy wing, not just the one you are attacking.

With four Cmdrs able to lock onto your unshielded subystems, that is the end of silent running in winged combat.

Admittedly as others have said, though, this is really just the final nail in the coffin. The others (introduced in 2.1) include increased heat generation when firing when silent, the emissive special, the corrosive special, the super penetrator ... I could go on.

 

[Andovar]

edit: ninja'd by truesilver.
Thanks for the explanation.

Don't know why they had to nerf silent running into oblivion.

 

[Ozram]

It's called 'propagation of hostility', iirc.

In English:

Silent running was always sub-optimal 1v1 because as soon as you fire on another Cmdr, not only does your ship become targetable, at any range, all of your modules (eg power distributor, power plant) also become targetable.

However, silent running came into its own in wing fighting. In an 8 v 8, being targetable by (mostly) only one Cmdr, not eight, meant you could stay alive notwithstanding the principal danger in wing fighting, 'primary focus', by which the whole enemy force is ordered via voice comms to attack each enemy 8v1. The OP, Cmdr Z4.Mafia, is famously good at staying alive in these situations.

But ... in 2.2, when you fire on an enemy, if they are winged you and your modules will become targetable by the entire enemy wing, not just the one you are attacking.

With four Cmdrs able to lock onto your unshielded subystems, that is the end of silent running in winged combat.

Admittedly as others have said, though, this is really just the final nail in the coffin. The others (introduced in 2.1) include increased heat generation when firing when silent, the emissive special, the corrosive special, the super penetrator ... I could go on.

Na, it doesn't quite work like that. You can avoid targeting quite well with SL as they can't keep the target lock. Trick is staying cool. The things that pushed SL builds to the corner were seeker missiles and emissive ammo.

 

[Truesilver]

Na, it doesn't quite work like that. You can avoid targeting quite well with SL as they can't keep the target lock. Trick is staying cool. The things that pushed SL builds to the corner were seeker missiles and emissive ammo.

You're right about emissive + seekers but temperature makes no difference to becoming targetable upon firing. The change in Beta 2.2 is becoming targetable to the entire wing upon firing, not one Cmdr.

 

[Ozram]

You're right about emissive + seekers but temperature makes no difference to becoming targetable upon firing. The change in Beta 2.2 is becoming targetable to the entire wing upon firing, not one Cmdr.

I did not know this. Does it lose target the second you stop firing?

 

[Truesilver]

I did not know this. Does it lose target the second you stop firing?

Sort of!

I fought in the PvP League six times ... six times on the winning side I am delighted to say ... including winning the first championship in a silent running 8v8 ... and indeed was instrumental in my then player group, Adle's Armada, adopting massed silent runners as our signature move ... so I have seen quite a lot of it ... but memory fades.

As I recall (and I haven't fought silent for some months) some weapons such as rails in particular have a 'spool up' that the game registers as hostility before the shot actually fires. From the moment hostility is registered until a short 'cool down' time afterwards the firer is fully targetable.

Temperature makes zero difference if targetable by reason of firing - we tested this ad nauseam.

To give you an example of the consequences in a 1v1 in practice, Ninjadeer and Alexander the Grape had an argument on reddit in December 2015 about whether SR was op. Ninjadeer said it was, Alexander the Grape said it wasn't. A duel was fixed to decide the matter as gentlemen.

Ninjadeer arrived in a silent running DBS with four multis. Grape arrived in a silent running FAS with four plasma. But Ninjadeer's problem was that he had to fire his multis the whole time and thus was targetable the whole time ... you can guess the rest!

It's for this reason that the best SR weapons were those such as the quad-frags I used on my 'Fraggy McFragface' FAS of some momentary renown - those that dish out their damage in bursts, leaving you untargetable the rest of the time.

 

[Han_Zen]

You apex PvPers are a special breed. The effort you put in to these builds are simply awesom. You probably have to do more PvE than anyone else for rank, cash and materials.
On top of that comes all the testing. All for the trill of seeing your oponent giving up and jumping out.
It's all really nerdy, but very impressive.

Have a salute, all of you.

 

[Ozram]

Sort of!

I fought in the PvP League six times ... six times on the winning side I am delighted to say ... including winning the first championship in a silent running 8v8 ... and indeed was instrumental in my then player group, Adle's Armada, adopting massed silent runners as our signature move ... so I have seen quite a lot of it ... but memory fades.

As I recall (and I haven't fought silent for some months) some weapons such as rails in particular have a 'spool up' that the game registers as hostility before the shot actually fires. From the moment hostility is registered until a short 'cool down' time afterwards the firer is fully targetable.

Temperature makes zero difference if targetable by reason of firing - we tested this ad nauseam.

To give you an example of the consequences in a 1v1 in practice, Ninjadeer and Alexander the Grape had an argument on reddit in December 2015 about whether SR was op. Ninjadeer said it was, Alexander the Grape said it wasn't. A duel was fixed to decide the matter as gentlemen.

Ninjadeer arrived in a silent running DBS with four multis. Grape arrived in a silent running FAS with four plasma. But Ninjadeer's problem was that he had to fire his multis the whole time and thus was targetable the whole time ... you can guess the rest!

It's for this reason that the best SR weapons were those such as the quad-frags I used on my 'Fraggy McFragface' FAS of some momentary renown - those that dish out their damage in bursts, leaving you untargetable the rest of the time.

Thanks for that. Pretty informative reply. I've used a silent FAS before with some success and indeed relied heavily on frags and missiles during fights (but it just gets slaughtered these days in any pvp). The single large beam for shield stripping would have been a huge mistake then.