Pay2Win made it to Elite

but is it the same as what CIG is doing?
I mean, i do think that selling pre-built ships is a bit of a cheap move - however i do expect to have a good laugh when it will be revealed what prebuilt-ships means in FDev Vision (C-rated of B-rated ships? Maybe A-rated Ships? I dont really expect G5 murderboats tho)

The early access Python Mk2 is again a bit of a cheap move - but still, it will be available for everyone 3 months later. It not like they're selling dreams.jpeg
So while i dont really like the early-access-thingies, i may spend my already saved arx on the Python mk2 because, why not?

In the past i purchased arx packages just to support the game. Now i may actually spend the arx on something that may be of real interest to me
The only thing I have to show from kickstarting SC is one of these...

EDIT: Meanwhile, all the stuff in yellow is.... 🤷‍♀️
1713958581733.png
 
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So, we bring back v1 engineering, but only in ships purchased for Arx. But you won't know what you get until you cash out. ;)
Ok but there's a 1% chance that the module will just flat out break when you apply any engineering to it - you can avoid this by buying diamond engineering tools with ARX one per roll. (This sounds like hyperbole, but some mobile games actually have these mechanics I think)
 
i mean its a bit out there but if FD want more money for their game then maybe they should do what other devs do and create a paid DLC for it?
It's certainly interesting to consider whether the following hypothetical branding for the exact same thing [1] would have been received more positively:
"New DLC 'Python 2' costing £9.50. Pre-order and it comes with a ship kit and paint. As a reward for their earlier support, Odyssey players will also get access to this DLC free from August." (or all four ships in one pack, perhaps)

[1] Unless you have a LEP, I guess.

I feel like providing more detail could potentially have answered many questions and reduced backlash.
Or increased backlash, if for example the detail turns out to be "the pre-built ships include engineered modules".

That said, a few days of grumpy forum posts was always inevitable purely on the principle regardless of the details and is probably irrelevant anyway either way - it'll be what the 99%+ of players not posting on the forums do after May 7 that really matters as to whether the experiment gets repeated.
 
Let's see how the builds actually look. I dont really expect them to be engineered. More likely like Corilios prebuilt ships (if ever - they may actually not even be A-rated)
Doesn't matter what the builds are, one segment of players will be alienated if the builds are too good, another if they're too bad. There's zero middle ground here, whether a module is trash could come down to being able to apply mass manager to it or not!

Having the builds be bad is actually kinda more disrespectful to the players because that means frontier expects people to pay real money for worthless junk ships. Even if I'd like it if the ships were more or less something I could ignore for gameplay.
 
It's certainly interesting to consider whether the following hypothetical branding for the exact same thing [1] would have been received more positively:
"New DLC 'Python 2' costing £9.50. Pre-order and it comes with a ship kit and paint. As a reward for their earlier support, Odyssey players will also get access to this DLC free from August." (or all four ships in one pack, perhaps)

That would have been an interesting approach, still they' would have been accused on P2W

However, the most concerning aspect, to me at least, is the Ship Packages - which will be a non-issues if they dont have engineered modules, but it will be quite an issue if they do end up having engineered modules
 
Doesn't matter what the builds are, one segment of players will be alienated if the builds are too good, another if they're too bad. There's zero middle ground here, whether a module is trash could come down to being able to apply mass manager to it or not!

I say it may matter, in a positive way - if the ships are A-rated but not engineered.
I mean, Carrier Outfitting for A-rated modules looks to me like the God's Gift for Colonia (which used to lack the full A-rated assortment of modules before carriers were released)

Sure, some people will be extremely disappointed if they wont be able to buy G5 murderboats for Arx - but i really hope FDev will keep them disappointed.
 

Ozric

Volunteer Moderator
I've also played since beta. And yes, there was a small p2w element there as well, although a very minor one. Although i was later and didn't get the early access to SD and Sol. This sort of thing has become typical of early access, although it doesn't mean we should applaud it.

What FD is doing now is waaaaay beyond that.
I think some people would argue that half price rebuy costs is far more P2W than being able to buy a ship fitted with, as yet unspecified, modules. Just because I'm pointing out that ED has always had the elements the OP and others are mentioning, does not mean I am applauding it or what Frontier is doing now.

If that is typical of Early Access and to be expected, then the addition of a Premium Currency and later selling gameplay items through the premium currency is about as standard MMO practice as you can get. I'm only surprised it's taken this long after ARX was introduced. I only wish LOTRO had of held out that long...

I am far more concerned by the early access to the Python than being able to buy a fast track.
 
Personally in the instance of Elite Dangerous, the term P2W is very subjective. I'm no good at PVP so having an allegedly bad --- ship designed for PvP will be a waste (if I were to get it for that purpose). Will I have an advantage over others? Perhaps. Depends on what you're getting with this kitted out ship and even then I'm not sure who or what I have an advantage over. I might however pay for the convenience of not having to do certain things to get said ship i.e. possible A rated Modules, the ship itself without having to grind for credits, etc.
I'm still struggling to see why this upsets anyone whatsoever. If anything, this again pads FDevs coffers to keep the game we all seem to love or at the minimum enjoy, going. I feel this bit of news will not hurt me whatsoever. So those claiming Elite is dead and/or people are paying for some advantage (win) seems rather presumptuous and a tad knee jerky that's all.

Pay-to-Win, or pay-for-an-advantage if you prefer, isn't about PvP. I've seen it numerous times in single-player games.

Look at Surviving Mars, for instance. It's a single-player survival city building game. In the base game, the basic dome includes six "slices," each of which can further be divided into three sections. There are two sizes of buildings: large (one slice), or small (one section), plus some tiny cosmetics. For much of the early- and mid-game, your six slices will include: three residential structures, one "basic services" (clinic and two food service buildings), one productive, and one that provides other services.

For example, in the basic game, in my typical mining dome, I'd have three residences, the basic services slice, a farm, and a bar to help with comfort. In my starting dome, I usually have the "other services" slice include a lab, nursery, and playground... because I don't have anything both small and useful to place in those other two sections. Usually to reach self sufficiency, I have to expand to three domes: the starting dome (which typically doubles as a mining dome, without the bar for comfort), one dome that supports a machine parts factory, and one dome that supports an electronics factory. These domes won't be as comfortable as they could be, which means that they'll be inefficient due to lower morale, and require a much larger population, because a significiant portion of the population will simply be involved in providing food and services to the productive members of the colony.

But hey! For $20 more, you can get "cosmetics" package, which include small variants of larger buildings. Now my "basic services" slice can be expanded to include such services as providing luxury and gaming services, and a bar as well. And since I have access to small factories, I can replace that nursery and playground with small electronics and machine parts factories. Self sufficiency in a single dome, with a much smaller overall population, a much higher productive population, who also enjoy the benefits of higher morale.

Oh! And for another $20, you can get early access to another "cosmetics" package, which will grant you early access to other food production buildings that you won't have to research to get access to. Want get colonists on the surface of mars as quickly as possible, without the worry of them starving to death? Why wait 20-30 sols until you research the farm, when you can spend a little money and get those colonists on the ground and being productive right away?

In the end, pay-to-win is a predatory monetization strategy. In many games I've played, especially online ones, the development team gradually makes the free gameplay more and more difficult, to make spending money to advance more appealing. A game with great gameplay doesn't need these strategy to earn money, because players will buy the game, and this will pay for additional updates to the game. Numerous single player games, such as Minecraft and No Man's Sky, take this route. Others go the content DLC route: more maps, more activities, and more assets that are balanced with the rest of the game.

Elite Dangerous has, to date, gone with pay-to-win DLC: Horizons and Odyssey not only provided new content, but more powerful capabilities. Horizons, especially, saw a huge increase in the power of player-owned ships, which both provided a huge advantage over other players (which could affect even solo-players, via the BGS), but also saw in an increase in power of NPC ships to compensate... which either cause base-game players to quit, or purchase Horizons to catch up. Odyssey isn't nearly as bad as Horizons was, but having this expansion still provides adopters with numerous minor advantages over those who own just the base game.

Yesterday's announcement, though rather... ambiguous in syntax, is yet another step towards predatory monitzation. And I, for one, find that alarming.
 
However, the most concerning aspect, to me at least, is the Ship Packages - which will be a non-issues if they dont have engineered modules, but it will be quite an issue if they do end up having engineered modules
I'm not averse to players being able to buy ships with engineered modules - there have been many, many, posts over the years about the "Engineering grind" (not that I ever found it so, but I'm strange, apparently) so getting players spending their cash, supporting the game, and discovering that skill plays a part in the game too, isn't an issue.

And, the really good bit is that it is entirely optional, don't want to spend money, then don't. It isn't as if engineering is impossible to do.
 
If that is typical of Early Access and to be expected, then the addition of a Premium Currency and later selling gameplay items through the premium currency is about as standard MMO practice as you can get. I'm only surprised it's taken this long after ARX was introduced. I only wish LOTRO had of held out that long...
Ah, LOTRO. I used to pay a subscription for that then it went free to play. Haven’t paid them a penny since and strangely, it hasn’t collapsed (yet).
 
I'm not averse to players being able to buy ships with engineered modules - there have been many, many, posts over the years about the "Engineering grind" (not that I ever found it so, but I'm strange, apparently) so getting players spending their cash, supporting the game, and discovering that skill plays a part in the game too, isn't an issue.

And, the really good bit is that it is entirely optional, don't want to spend money, then don't. It isn't as if engineering is impossible to do.
you could use exactly the same logic for the ships in star citizen, although you are quite vocal against them. people can buy them now to play with whilst in alpha and have them in the game, or they can earn them by playing the game once it launches.

some how its fine for elite dangerous but money grubbing for SC?
 

Ozric

Volunteer Moderator
Ah, LOTRO. I used to pay a subscription for that then it went free to play. Haven’t paid them a penny since and strangely, it hasn’t collapsed (yet).
It's the 17th anniversary today. Not done to bad to be still going despite three different companies running it. It's not remotely the game it was when it launched though. I brought the lifetime subscription pass to help support development.
 
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