Pay2Win made it to Elite

[Disemboweled Ego]

I for one am hoping FDev stops at offering a non ranked locked ship with A rated only modules with zero engineering. And that Fdev gives it a fair market value rebuy.

Pre-Built Ship packages will offer Commanders the opportunity to purchase ships that have been given a significant upgrade from their base models.

If that really means just A-rating a ship it'd be a pretty trivial change, not to mention A rating life support and sensors is a trap sometimes.

I think the issue with making a game even slightly P2W is how it looks from the outside when it takes over the game. You check out a new game and check out a few content creators for it to see what the vibes are like and they're all talking about what the most optimal way to spend real-life money on the game is and how to get the most out of it and have tier lists of ARX ships, top 10 arx buys etc. To me it's extremely off putting and it's put me off several games (World of War Thunder, Star Citizen) because most I hear about those games is addicts talking about the real money crap aspect of the game not the cool stuff they do in game.

Elite was/is like that too except it was more "top 10 ways to gring passenger missions for your conda" instead of real money stuff because the grind/progression was/is pretty bad. For how meh that is at least that was only focused on doing in-game stuff and I think we'll long for those simpler times.

 

[[VR] DDM_Reaper20]

How much one enjoys the game doesn't change what being able to buy in-game assets is, no matter how one defines it.



The trends I'm referring to are all about the dilution of meaningful choice.

I prefer to play games where all participants are playing by the same overarching set of in-game rules. Adding options to bypass previous constraints doesn't give players more choices unless all option are equally valid and if all options were equally valid, Frontier wouldn't be able to sell one of them.



Simply murdering pirates faster is going to make it harder for supporters of those Pomeche Raiders to keep up.

I'm already pretty fast. My murder corvette is very, very good at its job, and I'm pretty single-minded about this. I don't really do exploration, trading only when I have to, and other missions... sometimes, but rarely. I simply like space combat.

If we take that argument of yours to extremes, we could aways argue that somebody only interested in ONE activity makes it harder for others -- but that is a consequence of the game itself. Short of restricting activities ("Thou shalt not murder more than 30 pirates a week!"), there is no easy fix for this.

Anyway, we are getting ahead of ourselves. None of us KNOW what the Python 2 will be able to do. Will it have more firepower/shields than a corvette? If so, what will be the tradeoff be? We'll see when it's being released. I cannot, however, imagine than FDEV would risk invalidating all other combat/mission runner ships (depending what it's meant for). THAT would SERIOUSLY alienate a ton of players, much more so than introducing a paid-for ship.

 

[[VR] DDM_Reaper20]

In games like Wart hunder, such people buy premium equipment and consumables to destroy newcomers.

Such people are looking for P2W games and they will come to ED. They will wander around wherever there is activity. And an anti-targoid ship without shields will do nothing to a premium corvette.

This is just one of the problems with P2W.

I don't play War Thunder, but I get your point.
Still, the learning curve is steep, simply jumping in will not work well for most new players. Plus, there is the block function. Long ago, I tried out a plasma/rail murderboat FDL (bi-weaves -- I don't like prismatics for combat ships. Long story). I got jumped by another player in an FDL, and we fought. I managed to defeat him, he sent a friendship request, I responded in the affirmative, and he immediately UNfriended me (to block me, no doubt).
Again, we do not know yet what the Python 2 can do. Who knows, they might 86 the plan of offering a pre-built Python 2... which I would like, as I would rather build my own variant (sense of accomplishment, and all that).

 

[galahad2069]

It is. Because they do not have good solution of the re-buys.

Why though?
Why do ships that you buy for real money need to have a 0 credit price tag on them ingame?
So that you cannot sell it for credits?
Buying credits for real money, hmmm, does not exactly sound like the best deal of the century.

Why cannot those ships you buy for ARX have the same credit price tag (and therefore, the same rebuy cost) as any other run-of-the-mill version of the same kind of ship?

 

[Rainbro]

I don't see the big deal here, I personally don't mind the way Frontier are headed. The choice is the players either support the continuance of the game or not. The latter seeing the end of one of the best games I have played. I don't see it a "pay to win", "pay to skip" or any other phrase folk wish to make.
There will always be those screaming such nonsence.
The questions how much do you like playing the game? Would you like to see this game die?

The game is funded by people buying the game, buying expansions, and buying cosmetics. Has been for many years now. Why is £10 early access from a few diehard players now the deciding factor if the game lives or dies?

 

[Kalizandra]

Devil is in the detail.
What are the capabilities of the new ships etc? Will they give an advantage to any cmdr who buys early access to one? (This is Pay 2 Win and is less than ideal)
If its simply Fdev asking for a tenner for early access to a new shiny toy then fair enough. I'm relatively OK with this tbf.
Monetisation and offering 'short cuts' are a divisive subject and tbh this news does leave me a little bit concerned, but lets wait for more detail before we start reaching for the pitchforks and molotovs.

 

[alexzk]

Why though?
Why do ships that you buy for real money need to have a 0 credit price tag on them ingame?
So that you cannot sell it for credits?
Buying credits for real money, hmmm, does not exactly sound like the best deal of the century.

Why cannot those ships you buy for ARX have the same credit price tag (and therefore, the same rebuy cost) as any other run-of-the-mill version of the same kind of ship?

Depends what they sell. Some post above clarifies, they will sell the right to buy ships for the credits earlier.
If so, then it will be "materials grind skip pass" (probably).

 

[Crank Larson]

It is. Because they do not have good solution of the re-buys.
They cannot allow to wipe ARX item, and if they don't. this means it must have zero cost. And this is "a win" when somebody can keep re-spawn as crazy just for fun for free when I will have to cancel mission because I'm out of credits for re-buys.

How do you know what their solution is? Besides, rebuys could be the same price - you are buying early access, not the ship. If you lose the ship, you may still need to rebuy it with credits (and you still have early access). And when early access ends, everyone can buy it.

 

[Morbad]

If we take that argument of yours to extremes, we could aways argue that somebody only interested in ONE activity makes it harder for others -- but that is a consequence of the game itself. Short of restricting activities ("Thou shalt not murder more than 30 pirates a week!"), there is no easy fix for this.

Certain in-game characters making things harder for others is not a problem that needs to be fixed, if everyone is playing by the same in-game rules...which is precisely what pay-to-win, or whatever one wishes to call outside influence one buys with real-world money, upends.

 

[Nikephorus Phocas]

Game is dead now

Again? Sheesh that's twice I read this week alone the game is dead. How many times can this Phoenix die?

 

[Nikephorus Phocas]

I fail to see the uproar? You spend real currency to buy a ship, kitted, before it's released? What does that do to the average player who doesn't spend money?
I'm guessing a whole lot of nothing for the most part. God forbid a game that's a decade old find ways to make money to keep the lights on for players (i.e. servers).

Pay to win? That's funny. A buzzword for sure. Good luck with the outrage for those that are quitting the game.

 

[jojon]

Sometimes I can't help but wonder if this company is actively trying to commit suicide...

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

I fail to see the uproar? You spend real currency to buy a ship, kitted, before it's released? What does that do to the average player who doesn't spend money?
I'm guessing a whole lot of nothing for the most part. God forbid a game that's a decade old find ways to make money to keep the lights on for players (i.e. servers).

Pay to win? That's funny. A buzzword for sure. Good luck with the outrage for those that are quitting the game.

It's was advertised as a ship designed for PvP, if it's any good at that it'll put some players at a disadvantage for the coming months they can't overcome with their skill.

 

[Rainbro]

I fail to see the uproar? You spend real currency to buy a ship, kitted, before it's released? What does that do to the average player who doesn't spend money?

It's not "before it's released". The ship is ready to go. They are delaying access to it for those who don't pay, which should answer your question.

God forbid a game that's a decade old find ways to make money to keep the lights on for players (i.e. servers).

If only it were that simple. By the same logic, you could justify, I dunno, a half-hour login delay for those who don't pay. (And besides the point, this is a P2P game, server costs are negligible and already paid for by the other revenue streams from Elite)

 

[Nikephorus Phocas]

It's was advertised as a ship designed for PvP, if it's any good at that it'll put some players at a disadvantage for the coming months they can't overcome with their skill.

A bit of an assumption though don't you think? The outrage is hinged on what it may or may not do. I don't get the apoplexy over this to be quite blunt. Whatever. A new week, a new round of indignations.

 

[Rory12]

Again? Sheesh that's twice I read this week alone the game is dead. How many times can this Phoenix die?

Maybe the game just didn’t die because nothing was done for many years? The game gave everyone what we wanted.

It was only necessary to expand the functionality (landing on planets, etc.) and add stories little by little.

Sometimes careless changes can ruin what has worked for decades. There are many examples.

As for money, there were other options. But, probably, someone is haunted by the star citizen’s $1 billion.

 

[Darkfyre99]

Yeah, it is definitely pay to win. What can still be discussed is to what degree it will be. As with many things pay to win has degrees. If the advantages obtained, grind time savings, etc are not huge compared to players who prefer to not pay any money then it could become tolerable. It´s still a shame imo. We´ll see.

Yeah, there’s definitely a tier list when it comes to Pay to Win. Elite Dangerous has always had an element of Pay-to-Win, but it's always been at the Paradox tier of Pay-to-Win: your money buys you additional capabilities, but you still need to play the game to take advantage of those capabilities. This is about my limit when it comes to Pay-to-Win.

Frontier used some rather... ambiguous syntax when they announced "Pre-built Ships."

PRE-BUILT SHIPS​

We’re also going to be introducing a new category in the Elite Dangerous gamestore: Pre-built Ships. Pre-Built Ship packages will offer Commanders the opportunity to purchase ships that have been given a significant upgrade from their base models.

There's enough ambiguity here to give me significant pause.

At best, it's a minor increase in capabilities, at a similar to the one we all gained with Odyssey: the Apex Taxi. I still need to play the game to get the credits to build a ship while hopping around the Bubble in a taxi while I enjoy breakfast. "The opportunity to purchase" may be similar to the Cobra Mk IV: you still need to earn enough credits to acquire a Pre-built Ship. If this is the case, I'll proceed with the ARX purchase I was planning after tomorrow's Frontier Unlocked, assuming that I liked what I saw regarding PowerPlay 2.0.

At worst, it's the direct purchase of in-game assets for real-life cash, which would cross the line IMO into predatory monetization. If this is the case, I won't be spending any more money on this game. They've already got hundreds of dollars from me, and could've gotten many hundreds more if they'd done a better job at managing this game, but I don't financially support companies who engage in such predatory practices. I won't quit playing, but I won't buy ARX for my main or alt, nor will I buy new expansions for my alt.

The devil's in the details. I'm hoping that in this case, it'll be yet another lemuress, and not an arch-devil.

 

[Darrack]

It's was advertised as a ship designed for PvP, if it's any good at that it'll put some players at a disadvantage for the coming months they can't overcome with their skill.

Considering only a small number do PvP its not really going to effect things that much and we have no details of its capability's yet,

O7

 

[Weps]

Why cannot those ships you buy for ARX have the same credit price tag (and therefore, the same rebuy cost) as any other run-of-the-mill version of the same kind of ship?

Because in E: D, not having money for the rebuy means losing the ship. The game's death penalty would essentially become losing the real life money spent on the ship. Which no sane company would do, customers won't buy a digital product that they would risk losing to the occasional server hiccup or murderhobo.


It's easy to imagine: a new player. Doesn't know anything about Elite. Buys the game and sees the offer for a pre-built ship. Throws that in the cart as well. Boots up the game. First thing he does is switch to the pre-built ship. Undocks, slams into the wall. No money for rebuy. Should the game make him take the free Sidewinder and never see the pre-built again? That would be the fastest refund in the history of the game.

No, the only logical conclusion is that these ships will come with 0 rebuy.

 

[Nikephorus Phocas]

Considering only a small number do PvP its not really going to effect things that much and we have no details of its capability's yet,

That's my thoughts. Which is why I said I believe it won't effect the average player as much as this 'the game is dead' thread indicates. Seems to be a knee jerk reaction to an announcement with little detail on the ship to be released. I dunno