Pay2Win made it to Elite

The statement that just keeping your customers happy, "the money will roll in like no tomorrow" is not true. A happy customer doesn't necessarily mean they will just throw their money at said business. I am a happy customer that bought a $300 tennis racquet 35 years ago and have not given that company any money since.
So we will just have to agree to disagree on that point.
We don't disagree nearly as much as you might think. Your tennis racquet is the equivalent to a single player buy once keep forever title. But your tennis racquet also stays the same tennis racquet over those 35 years, it doesn't constantly change and evolve. Plus chances are you might have recommended the brand to others due to the quality and longevity = Reputation and more sales for that company.
 
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"Scolded by other players"? "Creating friction?" We are pretty much all adults here, and I fail to see why anybody should or would be "scolded" for doing what they want to do with their own money -- more so since it's neither a hack, nor an exploit.
we may all be "adults" "here", but in my experience that doesn't matter in the realm of online forums and in game chat. Like just look back through this own forum and theres already people pointing fingers at each other trying to paint their own narrative of why frontier is doing this, and getting mad when others dont agree. This may be a "dad" game, but it is full of players with a childs mentality.
 
What?? That is bull crap!

So the idea is these ships get a newbie a foothold on an aspect of the game, but they can't even actually tinker with the build? These are absolutely terrible concepts.

Building a mediocre ship for a newbie and then highly disincentivizing them from experimenting with the loadout to learn anything from tinkering with the template is awful. These are complete non-starters. Who TF are they actually for????
How is that unfair? All it says is if you want to tinker, go for it. You just won't be able to use a module you remove on another ship. You can still upgrade it (as far as I know), and you don't have to pay for a rebuy if you get blown out of space.

I am not sure that it precludes having to unlock the engineer though...
 
They can tinker, but cannot store unicorn modules to use them on other ships.
So you can sell the pre-build modules and replace them with other modules of your liking - but this way you will start seeing some rebuy costs accordingly to the value of the modules you outfitted to the ship

How is that unfair? All it says is if you want to tinker, go for it. You just won't be able to use a module you remove on another ship. You can still upgrade it (as far as I know), and you don't have to pay for a rebuy if you get blown out of space.

I am not sure that it precludes having to unlock the engineer though...

But if you decide that the experimentation you've done is not to your liking then how do you get your unicorn module back? And "tough luck" isn't an acceptable answer.
 
I was pondering how this affects me personally and it really doesn't, at least not directly. Sure, someone can pay money for a moderately improved (over stock) ship, with a few bits of Engineering. Good for them, I ain't gonna be buying one = it doesn't impact me directly. As someone whose been around since the Kickstarter, I reckon I could cobble together a better ship than the "pay to win" offerings with relative ease. The offerings, in their current state, really ain't so good in my view. Early access for the Python Mk II? Well, I'd like to be playing with it right away, I've been hoping for new ships for ages, but not if it's going to cost me. My additional content just comes a bit later then, bought with credits not ARX. I'm assuming at this point that the rest of the new ships will be released in the same way? Pay to get them when they're available, or wait to get them the regular way.

How does this potentially affect me? Well, if raising funds for the game by this method is what keeps it going... that sorta impacts me a bit if, without it, the game closes down or support drops right off. If this is what it takes, then so be it.

I do however think it's a bit of a shame for things to go this way, and it does go against what FDev have said in the past regarding in-game purchases. However, as someone who simply won't make such a purchase, it really doesn't impact me.

A side point: with the ARX I have saved up through regular play, I could get early-access on the Python II if I really wanted to. I don't want to though. I've saved up my ARX waiting for the "I really must have that!" moment, which has never come. I have a few free paint jobs that have been granted me due to being a Kickstarter backer - which were granted in lieu of the expected additional content that backer level / the LEP would offer.

I think for those who've been playing a while, these paid for ship builds mean nothing. Getting the Python II "late" if you don't pay up, is a bit more harsh I suppose, but I'm not really that fussed at the moment. For NEW players joining the game, I can sorta see the appeal of those ships (if they actually make them good that is lol), but will we see a load of people with decent ships but little clue how to actually play? At least they don't have to worry about flying without a rebuy...so, not gonna learn that lesson lol.

I just think some players might miss out on the experience of progression, when a degree of progression can be had with £££ instead of time. I get though that time can be very limited for some. I think we've had similar conversions when there have been the various "gold rushes" in the game, where either due to a bug, or a less than complete feature, money became really easy. To be fair, as far as credits are concerned, that's been easy for a very long time. Getting an Anaconda used to be a major milestone, taking many months of play to achieve. Progress was slow. However, I can say I certainly experienced that progress. Plus, goals such as getting my first Asp Explorer, or the Type 7, the Python and then an Anaconda were major in-game motivations for me to play. I had set goals and I played to get them.

Perhaps one day, Hutton will have a free Anaconda, if you pay for it with real money - 0cr cost, but many ARX/£££.

For me, the BIG deal is making materials go further / be more readily obtained. That will allow me to build the ships how I want to, no pre-packaged stuff. That's my main positive take-away from all this... I eagerly await to see exactly how FDev will deliver on this.
 
It would be good to know where this new money will go. For the development of the game or for designers to draw new ships. The Odyssey was the right move (even if it was done poorly).

I want to walk around the city of Mars or fall like a fiery comet on the heads of the Thargoids on an ammonia planet.

I want more simulation, can you sell me this, and not what I already have?
 
You can't store it for use on another ship. I don't know if that precludes storing it for future use on the ship it came on.
The direct quote from Paul (below) states that you can't store them at all. Only sell them for zero credits.

To be clear, I am not against them selling for zero credits. That's fine, because the alternative creates a loophole to buy credits for real money. What I am against is that (in essence) deleting the module you paid real money for being the only option.

You can't strip the modules off the pre-built ships and store them. They can only be used on the pre-built ship, and if you remove them to replace them with different modules, you have to 'sell' them for 0 credits.
 
So in essence,
The direct quote from Paul (below) states that you can't store them at all. Only sell them for zero credits.

To be clear, I am not against them selling for zero credits. That's fine, because the alternative creates a loophole to buy credits for real money. What I am against is that (in essence) deleting the module you paid real money for being the only option.

This would prevent the use of the 0-cost modules in other ships in order to reduce their insurance costs. So that's an advantage FDev could have given them, but chose not to.
 
It seems pretty clear to me that these ships are meant to be repeatedly disposable, temporary toys. So far they're offering an AX ship that has low survivability in AX combat, and a mining ship that can't find hotspots. The mining ship can find core asteroids, but it can't do anything with them. Both are mediocre, but usable.

Mediocre toys for real money does not equate to P2W. It's just a little extra to appease the "ooh shiny" "instant gratification" crowd that's common today. Once they've tried them for a bit, they'll become more motivated to put a little more effort into a proper build.

Based on how I'm seeing this, it's a good idea.

Edit: By "mediocre", I'm comparing to the best builds possible. If these "toys" were close to those builds, I could understand the P2W complaints.
 
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I can't help feeling Frontier could have handled the Python release better by explaining the new policies on new ship sales when they announced the news ships were coming.
 
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So in essence,


This would prevent the use of the 0-cost modules in other ships in order to reduce their insurance costs. So that's an advantage FDev could have given them, but chose not to.
Yes, I am not disputing that they don't want the modules to be sold for profit or used on other ships. That's fine. What is not fine is never being able to experiment with a ship build because you lose access to something you paid real money for.
 
I pay for premium time in gaijin's warthunder, i pay for premium tanks/time in wargaming's world of tanks, i payed 13 yrs of monthly subscription to blizzard's wow...i payed for frontier's odyssey pre Alpha ....letting words like "predatory" and "pay to win" near frontier trying to monetise an in game asset means you know not pain....If it were to sell for real money mats...yeah....otherwise...its a good try to maximise money to pay staff and development...as the games mentioned above too...as for the ships i saw prebuilt...gankers with a hard worked corvette...or gankers with a real money ship...its still ganking, who cares?
 
That's fine, because the alternative creates a loophole to buy credits for real money.
It was earlier supposed in this thread by Morbad that this may be the driving motivation and no rebuy cost is an effect of having a 0 credit hull. While it does somewhat amuse me after monetizing ships they are trying to protect credits with their worth as a currency being heavily degraded over time, I suspect this is probably the case.
This would prevent the use of the 0-cost modules in other ships in order to reduce their insurance costs.
This could be true too of course, as there can be more than one reason behind a decision.
 
What puzzles me though, is how they can manage to not eff things up with PZ and PC, yet with Elite, it's almost as if they want it to die.
Frontier is good at theme park games. That's the problem. They also made ED a theme park game. There's the Goid ride. There's the BGS ride. There's the Powerplay ride. It's all separate rides with no cohesion, connectiveness, complexity. The only common thing they have is a space theme. HG for all their over promising still know how to make a game that isn't a theme park.
 
I was sorta surprised that the pre-engineered modules on these ARX-bought ships cannot be stored or transferred. That's a major restriction! I'm forever swapping modules around while tinkering with builds - I wish the UI was a bit more flexible in that regard - so this would make these ships even more of a non-starter for me. I'm really not seeing the value here, as I love tinkering with ship load outs. This does suggest that FDev are mindful of the power of just buying a ship for its pre-engineered bits. I'm interested to see where this goes...

I assume any non-engineered modules can be removed, stored, placed on other ships and engineered as normal though?
 
Yes, I am not disputing that they don't want the modules to be sold for profit or used on other ships. That's fine. What is not fine is never being able to experiment with a ship build because you lose access to something you paid real money for.
Agreed. Modules on these pre builts should be like ship armors. I can engineer it, etc, to try out tinkering. I can store a Viper 4 hull. I can later put it back only on the same type of ship. But I can only ever put it back on the exact same type of ship. So that code already exists in the game to tie a hull to a ship type. Fdev could use that to tie prebuilt ships and all their modules to each other.

The bigger issue is how in the world does FDev expect a new Cmdr to figure out how to use these new ships? AX Combat is an end game activity. But no knowledge or skill can be sold via ARX. So the salt will flow. Fdev, no tutorials or videos/info for potential new cmdr's? The same for the T6 miner, without any knowledge and skill good luck finding the hotspots or useful rocks to mine. And what exactly is that PWA to be used for?

edited: for order
 
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