For me the line is crossed into P2W if the items or abilities one pays for cannot be acquired through gameplay. If the A-rated SCO FSD on the Python Mk2 prebuild can't be bought for credits, then that would qualify by my standard. I really hope that such modules are generally available and FDev needs to clarify.
Pay2Win made it to Elite
- Thread starter Einar Donarsson
- Start date
For me the line is crossed into P2W if the items or abilities one pays for cannot be acquired through gameplay. If the A-rated SCO FSD on the Python Mk2 prebuild can't be bought for credits, then that would qualify by my standard. I really hope that such modules are generally available and FDev needs to clarify.
As the P2 vanilla is supposed to launch next week, I'm hoping the pre-build will too, I am hoping that some kind of announcement with details of what, and when, might be made on this here forum, as well as the other Social Media channels I do not watch.
The emphasis is on hoping...
I still don't get this talk of P2W. People can fly in invincible modes like Solo/PG to their heart's content, but once a ship comes out in EA it's P2W? Pay to win what exactly?
BGS/PP/etc can be done invincibly in PG/Solo. As for PvP, nobody who does PvP with any amount of seriousness is going to care. If we're worried about this ship killing us in Open, then we were probably already going to die from a Mamba or Krait anyways, so the result doesn't really change. Engineer your shields and FSD and high wake out.
BGS/PP/etc can be done invincibly in PG/Solo. As for PvP, nobody who does PvP with any amount of seriousness is going to care. If we're worried about this ship killing us in Open, then we were probably already going to die from a Mamba or Krait anyways, so the result doesn't really change. Engineer your shields and FSD and high wake out.
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i think there are lots of definitions of P2W and i certainly will not tell anyone else they are right or wrong. (my view is it is P2W and i would rather it not be there...... but at the same time as it stands at the moment its not going to affect me much or change how i play the game.
My fear is (and not stating as a fact) but my fear is that once you can pay to get "stuff" in the online shop, the temptation is there for FD to artificially increase the time it takes to do stuff even more.
so historically when engineers 1.0 released with its insane time to get materials, and after a few months it got rebalanced, most people just accepted FD are rubbish at game balance and cut them slack........................... but next time a new feature comes out and it takes an age, but there happens to be a short cut on the shop allowing players to skip, i know i will be less forgiving myself, if players end up going to the cash store instead.
More important to me however, consistency is important. Star Citizen since its very inception has been accused of predatory P2W mechanics, with its life time insurance and ability to skip progress by buying ships with cash.
so is elite P2W or not? everyone can have their view but i would hope they use the same logic when discussing Star Citizen, or any other game with a shop which allows in game items to be bought for that matter.
I would hope people defending the cash shop to buy ships in elite would not be the same people accusing SC as being P2W.
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I'm quite curious to find out, when I eventually manage to fly the ship I bought years ago (with 3 months 'insurance' I think) and get blown up by a whale, if I will be in a spaceship game without a spaceship, insufficient funds to buy one with game currency, and be under the obligation to pay more real money if I am silly enough to actually wish to fly...
But, when FD attempts to sell me a ship for £750 which doesn't exist in the game, and may never exist, then I'll make a direct, and equally scathing, comparison.
I think there are two concerns (at least) that underlie the P2W talk.
The first one I can think of seems kinda nebulous, and is the one I understand the least. There's this idea that the work one does to get somewhere is somehow cheapened or nullified by allowing someone else to exchange real money to get there instead. Personally, the work I put into outfitting and engineering my ships is not erased by these new prebuilds. They are customised to my specifications and nothing FDev have offered so far even comes close.
The second one is more understandable, and that is the potential precedents that might be set by expanding the scope of real-money transactions the game involves. It is entirely possible that, despite the reassuring noises FDev have so far made about making engineering less grindy, that in the future it might be decided to manipulate material costs and other engineering-related activities in such a way as to try and push players towards shelling out for microtransactions instead of playing the game. That's an entirely valid concern, IMO.
I don't think that what FDev has announce crosses any lines. But others clearly disagree, and they're not wrong to consider the possibility that it may get worse. My position is to wait and see before declaring doom.
so it is the amount which makes a difference? personally i disagree. if £750 is P2W then so is £15.
if £15 isnt P2W then neither is £750.
i am making the assumption that all ships which have been sold DO make it into the game by launch. personally i am comfortable trusting CIG for that because if they dont surely that would be a legal issue?
i am fairly certain that (much like elite) in star citizen there will always be a way to play, even IF you flew without rebuy and lost your ship..... IF you cant and you are forced to pay cash to carry on playing then i will be with you with pitch fork out... but until then then life time insurance for the basic ship hull in SC looks pretty comparable to me to zero rebuy in elite dangerous.
And being ready to declare "So Long and Thanks For All the Fish" as you pack your bags and go elsewhere?
(which is me in a nutshell)
I think there are valid criticisms of SC's monetisation that simply don't apply to ED. If FDev ever start charging people thousands of pounds for ships that don't exist as anything more than an image file and likely never will, then I will think the comparisons have merit. Until then, CIG are in a whole different league of taking the smeg than FDev ever has been.
How do mate/Cmdr
, was watching a stream last night and it was confirmed that all variations of the SCO will be released next week when (ABC etc) the python is on early release. If I remember right whilst drifting off with my Hot Cocoa both variations of P2 will be available to purchase the vanilla python 2 unlock which just unlocks at ship yards and the pre built one with ship kit for approx 33k Arx with ship kit, at present there will be only one ship kit and it hasn't been said what this special feature is, maybe a surprise 
. My grammar should be up to spec as haven't had me drugs yet 
Also sorry if already been stated am catching up with me coffee and chemicals
the "and never will" is where i dsagree with you.
if those ships that people payed money for are never made then surely that would be criminal? until shown otherwise surely the assumption has to be that all assets sold for cash WILL make it into the game by launch?
Note i am not defending SC..... the jury is very much still out for me in general, it all depends how grindy it is. i may end up hating it, and to be honest i may end up binning it given i only want to play in VR.
But the difference for me is SC has always been like this, i went in eyes open. (not quite true actually, i tried to get a refund after the PvP slider feature was canned as i have no interest in PvP and that is a bigger problem for me than any possible P2W issues with the game) however CIG told me to sod off.
On the flip side - assuming SC are still honouring this promise - everything in SC paint jobs included last i heard will be earnable in game.
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I think the special feature is SCO stability and reduced heat generation, at least, according to the Ricardo vids I've seen dotted around.How do mate/Cmdr
Also sorry if already been stated am catching up with me coffee and chemicals
I'm under the impression that is a safe assumption.
not the amount - that is of no consequence - any amount for a dreams.txt offering is too much... If it doesn't exist for the player the moment it is 'bought' (something the alleged P2W ships will do is be in the game immediately) but at an undisclosed date in the future, someone is being robbed.
And the next debate will be the P2 pre-build having a 5A SCO FSD in its pre-release glory, that must be P2W as it isn't in the game today, after all...
Cool (Literally ) that makes sense as did appear to be more stable and less heat but I put that down to it being an A rated module, my age makes me take things for granted lol
You, my friend, are a star! Thanks, I hadn't caught up on that.How do mate/Cmdr
Hey, the bearer of good tidings need never apologise!
Haha. To be fair, that's not a daft reasoning. For me, it was the description when buying the ship that sold the idea that it's a special feature of the new ship as it says something about being specifically designed for optimisation with SCO.
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To alleviate this concern one need only look at Eve Online. In Eve a day 1 player can pull out their credit card (or incredibly well funded debit card) and purchase their way into the largest ship in the game. However, the day 1 player will be clueless on what to do, and will be worse off than if they had just taken the game a step at a time, because now they've spent money and have no idea how anything works.
The similar thing can happen in a way in Elite. A player can watch some guides and within a week or two be in a Corvette, fully funded, and partially Engineered. However, they will be clueless. They would have no idea how to stay alive against a player, no idea about pips, proper flying, avoiding ganks, how to work the BGS, etc etc etc. Someone in a Krait could mop the floor with them with ease because they never learned to play the game. If simply acquiring ships is how you win in Elite, then I suppose this is pay to win.
However, getting good is actually how one wins at Elite.
Thing is, CIG can just keep pushing back the release date while giving every appearance of intending to release at some point, and the burden will be on the disgruntled customers to prove that CIG had no intention of ever releasing. The thousands of pounds players have spent will act as a strong motivator for the sunk cost fallacy, for as long most buyers can convince themselves that a release will be coming at some point. Whereas I take the view that CIG have every incentive to keep a charade going for as long as possible. They're already selling individual ships for multiple orders of magnitude more than a whole AAA game costs; why would they kill the goose that lays the golden eggs?
Whereas FDev have delivered on their promise of a new ship, and have done so within a reasonable time-frame. I don't think the comparison is a valid one.
[sighs] Oh well, I'll never win Elite [/sighs]
You're good at something, you don't need to master everything.