PvP Pilot Federation Bounty - is it effective?

[M00ka]

As you all know, the PFB was introduced by FD as a way of curtailing ganking/griefing due to increased bounties as a determent. From all indication, the concept has failed (well that is what I have gleamed from the forums), credits are easy to come by, and if not, those the bounty is supposedly targeting just choose low value ships to destroy. They still get the thrill of the salt whatever ship they blow up.

So what do those that enjoy PvP suggest as a suitable punishment instead of the current way PFB is implemented? Do you think there should be any additional bounties (above the normal ones you would get for killing a clean NPC) for killing a clean Commander or is it all part of the game? Or should the PFB only apply in certain instances, like killing a player inside the No Weapon Fire zone of a station?

If you agree that some form of additional punishment is required for whatever scenario, is the percentage of the cost of the destroyed ship enough or should it be increased? Or would it be more of detriment if the player who has a PFB loses more than credits, for example, when (yeah or if) he is destroyed, apart from paying the fine as part of the rebuy, he can only get a stock standard version of his ship back - anything Engineer modified is gone. At least it might take them out of the game whilst he does the Engineer grind again. Of course this won't stop these players incurring a PFB and jumping into a stock Sidewinder and getting killed in that, unless FD magically comes up with a way to place the bounty on the ship and it's components that was used in the 'offense'.

 

[Arguendo]

As you all know, the PFB was introduced by FD as a way of curtailing ganking/griefing due to increased bounties as a determent.

No, they were implemented so you couldn't just jump to the next system and be "home free" after killing another cmdr. Increased bounties had very little, if anything to do with it. It seems that you are mixing the suicidewinder change and the PFB, although one affects the other.

From all indication, the concept has failed (well that is what I have gleamed from the forums), credits are easy to come by, and if not, those the bounty is supposedly targeting just choose low value ships to destroy. They still get the thrill of the salt whatever ship they blow up.

The cmdr who self-destructed in the Maia area in his small ship to teleport home, but had to pay the rebuy for his Cutter as he had comitted PvP Murder in it disagreed...a lot!

So what do those that enjoy PvP suggest as a suitable punishment instead of the current way PFB is implemented? Do you think there should be any additional bounties (above the normal ones you would get for killing a clean NPC) for killing a clean Commander or is it all part of the game? Or should the PFB only apply in certain instances, like killing a player inside the No Weapon Fire zone of a station?

Why does the PFB need to be changed? It works exactly as intended; commit a crime against another commander, and be Wanted in all civilized space. That was the intention.
If you want to add other things to that, fine, but it is one of the things that is actually Working As Intended in the game.

If you agree that some form of additional punishment is required for whatever scenario, is the percentage of the cost of the destroyed ship enough or should it be increased? Or would it be more of detriment if the player who has a PFB loses more than credits, for example, when (yeah or if) he is destroyed, apart from paying the fine as part of the rebuy, he can only get a stock standard version of his ship back - anything Engineer modified is gone. At least it might take them out of the game whilst he does the Engineer grind again. Of course this won't stop these players incurring a PFB and jumping into a stock Sidewinder and getting killed in that, unless FD magically comes up with a way to place the bounty on the ship and it's components that was used in the 'offense'.

I have said time and again, that C&P is missing a few bits and pieces to really feel right. These are the first two things I would change:

1. If you're wanted in the system, you shouldn't be allowed to dock, repair, restock and go back out there to continue your killing spree. With the PFB, this has to be limited to local bounties only, so the next system over doesn't care about PFB, just crimes in its own system. When the crime reaches a certain level, docking refusal should start spreading to other surrounding systems (word of mouth, etc)

2. The insurance fee should be steadily increasing the more crimes you commit. If you own a car and keep wrecking it, insurance companies will up your insurance charge continously until they're either at a rate equivalent of extortion, or flat out deny you insurance. Commit enough crimes, and the insurance company won't give you your ship back unless you pay the full price for it.

 

[StevieG]

Its perfect. Yes more Karma is welcome.

Watching "PVPers" not shoot first in a "PVP" fight due to security(not anarchy) is now making Open the place to be.

So come on down the griefering is over lets have a party.

 

[M00ka]

I apologise then, from what I have read I had (incorrectly as it now appears) that the PFB wasn't much of an inconvenience to some.

I do like your ideas, especially regarding the player not being able to dock. Regarding the spreading of the exclusion, should the wanted status migrate quicker to the neighbouring systems based on their security level, i.e. High Sec systems start applying the penalties quicker than Low Sec ones?

Also like the idea of the incremental increase in insurance, but would that be based solely on the ship the crime was committed in or be applied to the entire fleet the player owns?

 

[Tadeus72]

It's part of a system that isn't finished yet. It seems to work in some cases. Let's not overdo it too early and wait for the whole pack.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

Useless as I predicted.

I killed around 10 clean cmdrs since 2.4.
Yet to die, my rebuy is 3.5mil and I have 2 bil in assets. Do the math.

I have 150k of total bounties including the new global PF. Nothing in my gameplay changed, I never cared about npc cops or bounties and absolutely nothing changed in this regard since 2.4 released.

What should happen is pvp content for murderers in anarchy, missions to kill other cmdrs in high sec because terrorism.

High sec should refuse to let me dock and send skillfull npcs to hunt me down.

My location should be known to every cmdr, and bounties should not cap at 1 mil.

PGs are removed from the game and task killing is bannable offence that is actually enforced.

Solo stops affecting the BGS and PP and exists only for poor connections.

 

[Arguendo]

I apologise then, from what I have read I had (incorrectly as it now appears) that the PFB wasn't much of an inconvenience to some.

Other than being wanted in all systems, it isn't much more than an inconvenience. The rebuy itself isn't a worry for most, as they have enough problems. The two things that have been changed so far do the following things, nothing more:

1. Rebuy; you now have to pay the rebuy of the most expensive ship you committed a PvP murder in. Before this change, you could kill in a Cutter, die in a Sidewinder and only pay rebuy for the Sidey. Now you pay for the Cutter. It's not much, unless you are strung up for cash, but atleast it makes more sense now. It was pretty much a credit exploit, as the person killing you (if you had a friend) claimed a higher bounty than your rebuy.

2. PFB: PvP crimes now makes you wanted in all non-anarchy systems, and gives you a little bit of an extra bounty but nothing worth mentioning. That's all it does. It just means that you can't escape your crime unless you die, or move to Anarchy space.

Now, FDev have stated that this is just the beginning of a C&P system in development. It is by far finished, and we'll see more come Q1 and Beyond. The only thing we know about the first update is that cops will have more of a bite to them, so it should be harder to be a criminal and remain in the system. How much of a bite, noone knows.

I do like your ideas, especially regarding the player not being able to dock. Regarding the spreading of the exclusion, should the wanted status migrate quicker to the neighbouring systems based on their security level, i.e. High Sec systems start applying the penalties quicker than Low Sec ones?

That's beyond what I had thought of, but that absolutely makes sense. High Sec neighbouring High Sec, and the migration would be quicker.

Also like the idea of the incremental increase in insurance, but would that be based solely on the ship the crime was committed in or be applied to the entire fleet the player owns?

Either would be applicable, but the latter would make more sense. Insurance companies don't care if you buy a Ford after having wrecked 10 times in a Volvo, or whether you own two cars, but only wreck one of them on a daily basis.

 

[Arguendo]

Useless as I predicted.

It's working exactly as intended, which doesn't make it useless. It had nothing to do with credits, but not being able to escape Pilots Federation crime in civilised space.

I killed around 10 clean cmdrs since 2.4.

You're a bad boy!

PGs are removed from the game and task killing is bannable offence that is actually enforced.

Solo stops affecting the BGS and PP and exists only for poor connections.

Everything else, ok within reason. This; please drop it. Not going to happen, no matter how many times you say it.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

It's working exactly as intended, which doesn't make it useless. It had nothing to do with credits, but not being able to escape Pilots Federation crime in civilised space.


You're a bad boy!


Everything else, ok within reason. This; please drop it. Not going to happen, no matter how many times you say it.

It has to, otherwise criminals simply hide in solo, and pvp bounty hunting becomes useless as it is today.

 

[Arguendo]

It has to, otherwise criminals simply hide in solo, and pvp bounty hunting becomes useless as it is today.

It never will though, which is the point. The reason is quite simple; too many people play in Solo or PG for FDev to risk losing them as customers. There's a reason why Braben himself said "we need to get more players to play in Open."

Forcing that move is not going to work for them, because the game will lose too many players, including original backers. Then the game will slowly die.

 

[Mike Reacher]

Commander Arguendo, I need some info please.
ATMO I have a murder rap. Unintentional bullets passing my target.
This was in the Halloween CG. IN solo! Will the Pilots federation have anything to say about that?
NPC pilots are after me occasionally. One even said my unfinished mission was why he wanted me dead. (That was weird! I didn't have any missions) I kill those, and they seem wanted. If they are clean, can I shoot first and kill them?

And to add, a comment about pilots hiding in solo? Wont they be hunted by NPCs? The same as me?
Anther add: When I was in a different CG, all the pirates I killed made me a target at a nearby base and I could not do missions to change that. Just saying!

 

[Arguendo]

Commander Arguendo, I need some info please.
ATMO I have a murder rap. Unintentional bullets passing my target.
This was in the Halloween CG. IN solo! Will the Pilots federation have anything to say about that?

No. PFB is only for PvP murder.

NPC pilots are after me occasionally. One even said my unfinished mission was why he wanted me dead. (That was weird! I didn't have any missions) I kill those, and they seem wanted. If they are clean, can I shoot first and kill them?

If they are clean, you will get a bounty and get wanted, if you're not already.

And to add, a comment about pilots hiding in solo? Wont they be hunted by NPCs? The same as me?

Only if you are wanted in that system. If they attack you in a system you are clean, they will become wanted. I assume that the PFB will show you as wanted for NPCs as well in other systems, but again you need to have killed another player for that. (Note: I say "assume" because I haven't acquired a PFB, and haven't tested this myself)

Anther add: When I was in a different CG, all the pirates I killed made me a target at a nearby base and I could not do missions to change that. Just saying!

Not exactly sure, but it sounds like you killed enough pirates from one specific faction to become Hostile with that faction (yes, even killing wanted pirates from a faction will have your rep with them decline), and you then went to a station where that faction was in control.

 

[sovapid]

As you all know, the PFB was introduced by FD as a way of curtailing ganking/griefing due to increased bounties as a determent. From all indication, the concept has failed (well that is what I have gleamed from the forums), credits are easy to come by, and if not, those the bounty is supposedly targeting just choose low value ships to destroy. They still get the thrill of the salt whatever ship they blow up.

It is an annoyance at most. I'm not the biggest griefer out there, but one weekend I ended up with a PFB for killing 3 clean commanders (I think).

I usually will go do PVP stuff on the weekend and PVE stuff during the week. The week I had my PFB I was working on engineering.

So when looking for High Grade Emissions I would occasionally get harassed by NPC bounty hunters. The best was dropping into a High Grade that had what I wanted and having an NPC bounty hunter drop in with me. Made collecting the mats more of a challenge.

It did get me to switch from my normal DBX taxi to my Orca taxi. The Orca has left over parts from PVP ship builds so it boosts to 610 or something.

When I was going to the tanker that drops mats, you constantly get scanned. So I'd get scanned and have the bounty hunters/security shooting at me. For that I switched to my PVE Bounty Hunting/CZ Anaconda. Thanks to insane engineering vs NPC I can scoop mats forever while be shot and not really have to worry about it.

Docking at a space station while wanted is not big deal, do it all the time while PVP'ing. Going to the engineers it a bit more of a pain, because it is harder to land on planets while wanted, but again, no big deal.

One odd thing, I was not wanted in Maia when going to Palin, but when I was at Palin's base, I was wanted.

So what do those that enjoy PvP suggest as a suitable punishment instead of the current way PFB is implemented? Do you think there should be any additional bounties (above the normal ones you would get for killing a clean NPC) for killing a clean Commander or is it all part of the game? Or should the PFB only apply in certain instances, like killing a player inside the No Weapon Fire zone of a station?

If you agree that some form of additional punishment is required for whatever scenario, is the percentage of the cost of the destroyed ship enough or should it be increased? Or would it be more of detriment if the player who has a PFB loses more than credits, for example, when (yeah or if) he is destroyed, apart from paying the fine as part of the rebuy, he can only get a stock standard version of his ship back - anything Engineer modified is gone. At least it might take them out of the game whilst he does the Engineer grind again. Of course this won't stop these players incurring a PFB and jumping into a stock Sidewinder and getting killed in that, unless FD magically comes up with a way to place the bounty on the ship and it's components that was used in the 'offense'.

Even though I am not the biggest ganker, I'm not big on harsh punishments. I think having "bad" guys makes the game more interesting. I don't want them driven out of the game. Without bad guys, you can't have good guys.

I'd much rather seen incentives for the "victims". So getting killed by another player isn't so punishing. I'd also like it if the "punishment" was able to be dealt out by other players. Like the example of anyone with a PFB is trackable/findable by player bounty hunters. The NPC bounty hunters found me all the time, but there is no way for a player bounty hunter to find me.

Things like, if you are wanted, you can't dock at a station, I don't like. Unless it also includes pirate stations where you can't dock unless you are wanted.

Getting rid of Engineered modules is a non-started and would be a quit the game thing for me and alot of other people. The amount of grind involved in engineering is nuts. Every time I am engineering something I already question my sanity and reasons for the playing the game.

 

[sovapid]

2. The insurance fee should be steadily increasing the more crimes you commit. If you own a car and keep wrecking it, insurance companies will up your insurance charge continously until they're either at a rate equivalent of extortion, or flat out deny you insurance. Commit enough crimes, and the insurance company won't give you your ship back unless you pay the full price for it.

Ha, shouldnt the insurance be going up for the people who are getting killed all the time.

Or god forbid running without shields.

*Take my shieldless T7 to my insurance agent. He dies laughing "hell no we aren't going to insure a ship with no shields"


It would be like insuring a car with no brakes. It ain't gonna end well.

 

[sovapid]

and bounties should not cap at 1 mil.

Since the suiciderwinder exploit is closed for PVP murder, your bounty should be able to go as high as the rebuy on your murder ship is.

If you are the hook for 30 million if you die because you were a murder hobo in a Cutter, your bounty should be allowed to go up to 30 million.

I don't like how people worry about bounty exploits, but this should at least keep them happy too.

 

[Arguendo]

Ha, shouldnt the insurance be going up for the people who are getting killed all the time.

The one being hit in a collision doesn't usually get charged by the insurance company

Not that I disagree on the "take care of yourself, " argument though!

 

[M00ka]

Thanks to all that replied.

It will be interesting what the new C&P system comes out via 2.4. Personally I would like to see (and this is for all modes), something more stringent, ie, if you have a bounty (any bounty), and drop into a High Sec system, you can expect to be heavily hassled by the Authority ships. If you have a PFB, you should be expected to be interdicted by the Authorities. Less stringent in a Medium Sec, even less in a Low Sec and nothing at all in an Anarchy system. This should allow those that like to fly on the other side of the law (as they are fully entitled to) still have places to go and operate whilst still enforcing some penalty on them.

 

[sovapid]

Personally I would like to see (and this is for all modes), something more stringent, ie, if you have a bounty (any bounty), and drop into a High Sec system, you can expect to be heavily hassled by the Authority ships. If you have a PFB, you should be expected to be interdicted by the Authorities. Less stringent in a Medium Sec, even less in a Low Sec and nothing at all in an Anarchy system. This should allow those that like to fly on the other side of the law (as they are fully entitled to) still have places to go and operate whilst still enforcing some penalty on them.

If this is true, I would want the opposite to be true.

If you don't have a bounty and go to an Anarchy system, you are interdicted by pirates at the same rate the wanted player is interdicted by System Authority in a High Sec.

 

[Arguendo]

If this is true, I would want the opposite to be true.

If you don't have a bounty and go to an Anarchy system, you are interdicted by pirates at the same rate the wanted player is interdicted by System Authority in a High Sec.

Yes! Definitely! Anarchy space should be dangerous for non-criminals!

 

[M00ka]

If this is true, I would want the opposite to be true.

If you don't have a bounty and go to an Anarchy system, you are interdicted by pirates at the same rate the wanted player is interdicted by System Authority in a High Sec.

I have no problems with that at all, fully agree that Anarchy should be a place that a player is wary of entering, that is why there is a warning when you are about to wake into said system. At present it is hard to differentiate between an Anarchy system and a High Security system, the danger, or lack of danger is about the same.

Yes! Definitely! Anarchy space should be dangerous for non-criminals!

Actually, Anarchy should be dangerous for the criminals as well, as other criminals should be hunting them for their bounties!