Pirate Vs Experienced Trader -- Lots of Fun... but Sad too.

[Morbius]

Still a pirate "I win" button. If I'm in my T-9, with B7 thrusters I can maintain about 200 if I boost constantly. Any ship that can't mass lock me can catch me with ease, and anything that can mass lock me will catch me well before my FSD spools. If I'm now going to have to deal with parasite ships if I can't maintain distance (I can't), then I'm royally screwed whatever I do.

Well it SHOULDN'T be easy to evade a small fighter in a lumbering cargo hauler. You should have to have skill and the proper loadout to deal with it, not to mention this adds to gameplay. Can't get away? Last long enough for the coppers to show up and give you a hand. Going through Anarchy space? Bring a small fighter escort (there should be times where this is needed anyway, it adds to the cooperative aspect of gameplay). Don't want to deal with any of that? Use a smaller cargo ship, such as a Cobra, that will reduce your risk (and therefore your reward).

Edit:
Also, any ship catching a T9 with ease, will be a craft small enough that, if you are equipped properly, should have a tough time so much as breaking your shield before coppers show up and make it much much harder for them.

 

[Comrade Napoleon]

Just pulled over a type 6 who was clearly very experienced. Had chaff, point defense, shields, and shield cell (from the look of the never weakening shields from the first volley). He wasn't trading necessary defense for more cargo space (fast cash) and he was hauling rare goods (scanned him) in the open. Major props to that; wish there were more like him.

The roughly 10 seconds I got to fire on him was incredibly fun and makes me realize why I love this game. This guy was hauling and he knew the dangers of the universe and he equipped accordingly. Threw out chaff, point defense destroyed my missiles, any shots incoming nullified by shield cell. He was ready to rock. Even though he got away, it was pretty damn awesome. This is how traders should be traveling and be ready for combat.

Of course.... this awesomeness was cut short by the fact that he submitted to interdiction and warped immediately away (3 times), essentially nullifying any chance of success against him -- thus cheapening the experience overall. Completely impossible to actually pirate a t6 or above in the current state of the game (any hauler that takes advantage of submit, warp, laugh technique).

It's a bit of a game spoiler at the moment and makes piracy far less fun when any juicy target can do this at will.

I am completely willing to lose these encounters and have the hauler get away (especially when he is so prepared like this guy was)... just want a bit more time to get the chance to succeed. 8 to 12 seconds (if your lucky) just isn't enough time.

How does this technique fair against a pirate asp? Is it the same thing or will the asp's mass stop this tactic and enable better piracy?

I personally hope they come out with FSD scramblers or something along those lines. Not permanent, but a 30sec to 2 minute delay, or something along those lines. Until then, I'll just grin and bear it every time I get a "submitter". Might actually open fire on those and not even give the option, because if you submit, you are likely going for that tactic.

Just want to hear opinions on this.

Saunders Out

Dear Cmdr Saunders

I very much appreciate your post. I am even sympathetic.
But if you as much as look shrewdly at my ASP, things will happen, bad things !
So if you see Comrade Napoleon doing his stuff, carry on, dont be bothered , its not worthwhile.
Mr Saunders if you are short of money I can lend you mmmmn, yes ?
At very low interest , 10 % pr. week .. yes
Piracy is not good for your health.


Cheers Cmdr's

 

[Flying Penguin]

Well it SHOULDN'T be easy to evade a small fighter in a lumbering cargo hauler. You should have to have skill and the proper loadout to deal with it, not to mention this adds to gameplay. Can't get away? Last long enough for the coppers to show up and give you a hand. Going through Anarchy space? Bring a small fighter escort (there should be times where this is needed anyway, it adds to the cooperative aspect of gameplay). Don't want to deal with any of that? Use a smaller cargo ship, such as a Cobra, that will reduce your risk (and therefore your reward).

Edit:
Also, any ship catching a T9 with ease, will be a craft small enough that, if you are equipped properly, should have a tough time so much as breaking your shield before coppers show up and make it much much harder for them.

It's not easy to get away now (at least compared to a T7), but it is possible. I run with every defence possible, big shields etc, the plan being to tank my way to the point of jumping (there is no other option in a ship that size). But if I equip right and handle my ship properly I can escape. Obviously it's easier to escape Cobras than Anacondas (which is natural as a T-9 should be "Big Game" as piracy targets go), but the mechanics give me a fighting chance.

Add your suggested mechanic and all those small ships (that previously couldn't dent me unless I made a major mistake) get effectively unlimited goes and *no matter what I do I cannot escape*.

As for the rest of it, well when there is provision for AI wingmen we can talk. Unless you fancy flying my wing when grinding a trade route? Add to that the fact that most pirates are perfectly happy to tank any number of NPC authority ships (especially when flying ASP or above) and you have a pirate "I win" button.

Any mechanic that allows one side a near guaranteed victory, no matter how well the other side flies, is a poor mechanic. And that is most definitely a very poor mechanic.

 

[Morbius]

It's not easy to get away now (at least compared to a T7), but it is possible. I run with every defence possible, big shields etc, the plan being to tank my way to the point of jumping (there is no other option in a ship that size). But if I equip right and handle my ship properly I can escape. Obviously it's easier to escape Cobras than Anacondas (which is natural as a T-9 should be "Big Game" as piracy targets go), but the mechanics give me a fighting chance.

Add your suggested mechanic and all those small ships (that previously couldn't dent me unless I made a major mistake) get effectively unlimited goes and *no matter what I do I cannot escape*.

As for the rest of it, well when there is provision for AI wingmen we can talk. Unless you fancy flying my wing when grinding a trade route? Add to that the fact that most pirates are perfectly happy to tank any number of NPC authority ships (especially when flying ASP or above) and you have a pirate "I win" button.

Any mechanic that allows one side a near guaranteed victory, no matter how well the other side flies, is a poor mechanic. And that is most definitely a very poor mechanic.

The solutions to these concerns is to beef up coppers in highsec systems to make them actually draw small ships off the attack on you, and yes, AI wingmen. Until then, I actually would be willing to fly escort for you, for a cut of course

Edit:
Think of it in terms of ships at sea. A small pirate vessel will give a large hauler a tough run for it's money due to its agility and speed. Is it "fair"? Not really, but it shouldn't be. As a combat oriented vessel, the Pirate should have a slight advantage over a hauler, and the balance is your heavy defenses and probably better firepower, allowing you to either ward them off, or at least hold out until help arrives. Want to minimize the risk? Again, wingmen is the answer and would be realistic (yes I know this requires the wing update, but that will come soon hopefully). I mean really, who would go hauling 400-500t of valuable goods without an escort, especially if going though any sort of lowsec space?

 

[Quineloe]

So in short, you want traders in open play, and you want them bad enough for you to easily kill them ? These already exist: They're called NPCs.

As for your question: Asp masslocks Type 6. Interdiction cost is hwoever going to hurt.

So funny to see Saunders, the pirate who a week ago bragged about being the Blackbeard of Space, now here complaining that there's builds he doesn't understand how to deal with and wants nerfed so he can have easy kills again. What about your I-Win button against haulers with smaller mass and no defenses?

 

[Flying Penguin]

The solutions to these concerns is to beef up coppers in highsec systems to make them actually draw small ships off the attack on you, and yes, AI wingmen. Until then, I actually would be willing to fly escort for you, for a cut of course

Edit:
Think of it in terms of ships at sea. A small pirate vessel will give a large hauler a tough run for it's money due to its agility and speed. Is it "fair"? Not really, but it shouldn't be. As a combat oriented vessel, the Pirate should have a slight advantage over a hauler, and the balance is your heavy defenses and probably better firepower, allowing you to either ward them off, or at least hold out until help arrives. Want to minimize the risk? Again, wingmen is the answer and would be realistic (yes I know this requires the wing update, but that will come soon hopefully). I mean really, who would go hauling 400-500t of valuable goods without an escort, especially if going though any sort of lowsec space?

No amount of real world analogies make a poor mechanic a good mechanic. This is not Spanish galleons vs Drake's privateers, where there could actually be a reasonable fight (the biggest ones mounted many rows of guns and would have represented a genuine threat to all but the biggest privateer ships), but intergalactic 1v1 pew-pew where the biggest trade ship in the game has no option but flight and represents a grand total of zero threat to even a half competent pirate.

If they re-balance the whole shebang introducing extra pirate mechanics and trader counters, then fine. But to just go "it should be giving you a run for your money", well... Unless you use a completely inappropriate ship (i.e. a pea shooter), it currently is. If a top end pirate ship (Python or Anaconda)* interdicts a T-9, they are already able to inflict a world of hurt if they are half competent. Even an ASP can if I'm under-shielded or screw up, in fact if I fight the interdiction and am under shielded, a Sidewinder can! My Cr balance can testify to the last one.....

*Yes there needs to be a better way to scoop cargo, but that's another thread.

 

[Sc00py]

There's risk. A few of them:
1) Bounties: I have a bounty on my head 'cos piracy. To be fair, I could clean this with some money, but I chose not to 'cos I like risk. I've had plenty of people gunning for me. None have managed it so far, but plenty try.
2) Friends: A trader can run with friends. If you tell me you're gonna drop some cargo, while you're Asp/Python friend hops in on the wake, it can get awful messy for the pirate awful quick. Can't jump out 'cos mass lock, and booms from unexpected places are bad.
3) Fighting: Traders can fight back, though Type-Xs struggle.
4) No takings: Interdicting costs money, ammo costs money, time costs money. Shielded Type-6s are fairly low down on my hit list because of these costs and the fact that good pilots are fairly unpiratable.

Would I like to see more risk for pirates? Yes, actually. It'd have to be balanced out by more profits in the black markets though. If you think about risk:reward, while piracy may be lowish risk, it's also low reward. My personal pet idea is to significantly reduce insurance cover (coming from a Diablo 2/3 hardcore player, mind). Something like 80%, with maybe some cargo insurance would work. If I pay 4x on my rebuy, the risk goes up quite a bit. I'd also like the bounty system reworked so that it's not possible to simply pay it off.

i so agree with this last bit, piracy should be high risk high reward
dieing as a pirate should mean paying up (u got busted)
dieing as a trader should mean a minor loss

may i add :
-give trading on open an incentive vs trading solo (a 10% bonus maybe?)
to get more ppl in open
-give pirates a bonus for being wanted? (better blackmarket prices?)
one could imagine a system where u earn more when u are wanted more (and when u die u pay the bounty )

 

[Ixnatifual]

Although you didn't lose, you just didn't win. At best it was a draw as a loss would have ended in your death. A draw is all a trader can hope for in the current game since a T6/T7 doesn't stand a chance of defeating a pirate regardless of what ship the pirate is using, which is sad.

Edit - There really is far too low risk pirating. Even on the odd chance you WOULD get killed you lose far, far less. I hope they bring in trade insurance, that should at least help a bit.

Yet the risk vs reward of trading is far more profitable than piracy.

 

[Tigga]

I think disruptive mass (mass-lock) needs looking at and made more interesting. The fact that a Type-6 stands no chance at all against an Asp, while a Cobra stands no chance at all against a Type-6 (which is sensibly equipped) seems silly to me. There should be a slightly smoother progression IMO. I think there's quite a lot of game design issues converging here:

1) I think Type-x freighters, as a whole, should be more vulvernable. A Type-6 should fear a Cobra or a Viper. A Type-7 should be worried by a Cobra or a Viper. Interdictions should be made to last significantly longer, submission or no submission. Disruptive mass should include craft that are smaller than you with the combined mass of the smaller ships used. Obviously smaller ships wouldn't disrupt mass much, maybe 2-3x, but that would be more interesting then we currently have, which is either "huge disruption" or "no disruption".
2) However, players should be able to hire NPC or player escorts. A pirate would have to deal with these if he was going to get at the freighter. Maybe over the course of multiple interdictions the escorts could be whittled down and the target opens up, but of course a long interdiction means the police will be there before it ends. Of course, the trader always has an out by dropping some of his cargo.
3) And NPCs should be made much more competent, which would make high security systems a nightmare for a pirate to operate in. Right now I get interdicted every few minutes by the police in high security systems. They never win the interdiction minigame, and, if they did, I would boost away and be free in seconds. Often after my piracy 3 police turn up (Viper, 2xEagle). These tickle my Cobra a bit while I scoop cargo. Sometimes I have to pop a shield cell, but usually I just don't pay them any attention.

Obviously, wings are going to completely mess with the pirate vs hauler balance, IMO this will be in the pirate's favour (not enough piracy to justify running a wingman as a hauler IMO). I really hope that, with wings, we get an NPC buff, and the ability to bring NPCs into your wing.

I think the above changes wouldn't skew the balance too much either way, but would make each engagement more interesting. You'd be able to decide how much protection you wanted as a trader, and pay for that, and you'd be able to do something by being skillful as a pirate to deal with the protection. Right now, piracy is limited to ships that are smaller than you/the same size, and IMO this feels like a really poor mechanic. A dedicated combat ship should be able to do something to something that is only slightly heavier than it. Things should be a smooth progression: it shouldn't jump from "I'm immortal against Cobras" to "I will always lose to Asps". It should go from "Cobras are a problem " to "Asps are a big problem". The same issue also occurs lower down the scale. Adders are immortal to everything smaller than them, dead to anything bigger. It probably happens further up as well

Also, I really don't care about traders moving to solo. If they want to do that, do that. Open is always going to be more dangerous than solo. If you take that away, you take a large part of the game away. Some people want the danger, some don't. Heck, it's the only danger elite has at the moment (barring incidents around ports).

 

[Quineloe]

I've played a game in which the big trade ships were trivial kills for pretty much any combat craft of any size.

It resulted in there never being any big trade ships for you to hunt. Never, ever. No one dared risking an expensive ship and even more expensive cargo for no additional benefit. They stuck to safe routes where you couldn't attack them.

If you do your proposed changes here, you'll have every single trader in solo mode. No exceptions. You should be amazed there's actually still that many traders out there for you to attack, given they gain absolutely nothing from being in Open Play.

 

[Tigga]

I've played a game in which the big trade ships were trivial kills for pretty much any combat craft of any size.

It resulted in there never being any big trade ships for you to hunt. Never, ever. No one dared risking an expensive ship and even more expensive cargo for no additional benefit. They stuck to safe routes where you couldn't attack them.

If you do your proposed changes here, you'll have every single trader in solo mode. No exceptions. You should be amazed there's actually still that many traders out there for you to attack, given they gain absolutely nothing from being in Open Play.

Did you read the post? I never said big trade ships should be trivial kills. I suggested that maybe they should be easier for smaller fighters to hurt (not trivial, easier), but also suggested additional ways in which they could defend themselves. I also brought up the fact that in heavily policed sectors operating as a pirate to shoot the big trade ships would be very difficult due to the improved NPC ability.

It's all there, go back and read it again.

 

[Quineloe]

I see the notion of AI police saving traders as rather unrealistic. They'll never get there in time, given how fast a piracy attack is finished. Unless the game spawns police craft out of thin air 10 seconds after the interdiction in the fight, they'll always be too late. The only possible solution would be to have the police already react to the interdiction, that way it would make sense for the trader to play the minigame instead of submitting. What does an ongoing interdiction in SC look like, anyways?

The line between trivial for one and impossible for the other and a fair challenge for both is a very thin one when comparing two completely different types of ships. I have my doubts it would be easy to get it just right and would eat a lot of manpower to rebalance it over and over.

I find it perfectly acceptable that some traders can easily get away from some pirate ships, and once you have wings you can just have one pirate in a viper to take care of all the small haulers and another in an Asp or Python to masslock the Types. Let's see how many players then continue open play trading if that's actually becoming the norm.

 

[neXib]

As it is now I don't think a pirate needs any more advantages. Basically you have all the advantages over a trader anyway, the only way he can outwit you is experience enough to get away. Until I can pay someone to accompany me on my trade route I think pirate should stay exactly like it is, it's no more profitable than exploring or bountyhunting, and why should it be. You are doing it for the excitement. Bountyhunting, pirating, exploring = exciting. Trading = boring. But the latter is more profitable, usually, if you want it to be and do it right.

All I can do as a trader is have reasonable defense, enough money for buyback and hope nobody messes with me. I still want to stay in Open, just because I like being there with someone, game feels more alive.

 

[Tigga]

I see the notion of AI police saving traders as rather unrealistic. They'll never get there in time, given how fast a piracy attack is finished.

I'll time the response next time. I'd say it's about a minute, maybe 90 seconds. I think it's a lot shorter than before now my bounty has gone up. Notice I also mentioned that I think interdictions, as a whole, should last longer. Maybe this would mean that ships had stronger sheilds, but were either mass-locked more, or had a longer cooldown on the FSD (with the cooldown ticking down faster if nobody has hardpoints out).

Unless the game spawns police craft out of thin air 10 seconds after the interdiction in the fight, they'll always be too late. The only possible solution would be to have the police already react to the interdiction, that way it would make sense for the trader to play the minigame instead of submitting. What does an ongoing interdiction in SC look like, anyways?

Two ships, one behind the other, ducking and weaving. When they finish, one/two low-engery frame-shift wakes appear (depending on the result!). Jumping on either wake takes you to the "spawn" point of the activity, which, in the time it takes to do, could be several km from the ships that started the activity.

The line between trivial for one and impossible for the other and a fair challenge for both is a very thin one when comparing two completely different types of ships. I have my doubts it would be easy to get it just right and would eat a lot of manpower to rebalance it over and over.

I find it perfectly acceptable that some traders can easily get away from some pirate ships, and once you have wings you can just have one pirate in a viper to take care of all the small haulers and another in an Asp or Python to masslock the Types.

I think most balancing has to wait until after wings and after NPCs are buffed.

In any case, right now any Type-6 who "knows the trick" can get away from any Cobra. Sheild cells aren't need, though shields are. Breaking shields (they get a free charge between interdictions somehow) and doing hull damage, let alone hatch damage, just isn't really possible in 10 seconds. There's not a battle of wits, or any skill game in it. Rather simple tactic which doesn't require much skill to pull off => 100% success rate.

I guess a large part of the problem is it's very hard to allow the Type-xs to use skill. They're big targets that can't really dodge very well. The most skilfull player in the world won't do much better than the least. You either have a low-skill tactic that works, or you don't. If you don't, Type-xs are in trouble, if you do, Type-xs are immortal. I agree with you that that's very hard to balance. Maybe adding some sort of artifical skill game (like the interdiction game) would allow for some granularity? I don't know.

 

[Dabba]

I think disruptive mass (mass-lock) needs looking at and made more interesting. The fact that a Type-6 stands no chance at all against an Asp, while a Cobra stands no chance at all against a Type-6 (which is sensibly equipped) seems silly to me. There should be a slightly smoother progression IMO. I think there's quite a lot of game design issues converging here:

1) I think Type-x freighters, as a whole, should be more vulvernable. A Type-6 should fear a Cobra or a Viper. A Type-7 should be worried by a Cobra or a Viper. Interdictions should be made to last significantly longer, submission or no submission. Disruptive mass should include craft that are smaller than you with the combined mass of the smaller ships used. Obviously smaller ships wouldn't disrupt mass much, maybe 2-3x, but that would be more interesting then we currently have, which is either "huge disruption" or "no disruption".
2) However, players should be able to hire NPC or player escorts. A pirate would have to deal with these if he was going to get at the freighter. Maybe over the course of multiple interdictions the escorts could be whittled down and the target opens up, but of course a long interdiction means the police will be there before it ends. Of course, the trader always has an out by dropping some of his cargo.
3) And NPCs should be made much more competent, which would make high security systems a nightmare for a pirate to operate in. Right now I get interdicted every few minutes by the police in high security systems. They never win the interdiction minigame, and, if they did, I would boost away and be free in seconds. Often after my piracy 3 police turn up (Viper, 2xEagle). These tickle my Cobra a bit while I scoop cargo. Sometimes I have to pop a shield cell, but usually I just don't pay them any attention.

Obviously, wings are going to completely mess with the pirate vs hauler balance, IMO this will be in the pirate's favour (not enough piracy to justify running a wingman as a hauler IMO). I really hope that, with wings, we get an NPC buff, and the ability to bring NPCs into your wing.

I think the above changes wouldn't skew the balance too much either way, but would make each engagement more interesting. You'd be able to decide how much protection you wanted as a trader, and pay for that, and you'd be able to do something by being skillful as a pirate to deal with the protection. Right now, piracy is limited to ships that are smaller than you/the same size, and IMO this feels like a really poor mechanic. A dedicated combat ship should be able to do something to something that is only slightly heavier than it. Things should be a smooth progression: it shouldn't jump from "I'm immortal against Cobras" to "I will always lose to Asps". It should go from "Cobras are a problem " to "Asps are a big problem". The same issue also occurs lower down the scale. Adders are immortal to everything smaller than them, dead to anything bigger. It probably happens further up as well

Also, I really don't care about traders moving to solo. If they want to do that, do that. Open is always going to be more dangerous than solo. If you take that away, you take a large part of the game away. Some people want the danger, some don't. Heck, it's the only danger elite has at the moment (barring incidents around ports).

I largely agree, and it will be interesting to see how wings are implemented and how that changes things. I do agree that it would be nice to see a smoother progression in mass lock, but I dont agree that a Viper should be a threat to a properly outfitted Type 7. Youre talking about a ship with a rebuy of a couple hundred thousand vs one with a rebuy of over a million, it just wouldnt be fair or balanced for the Type 7 not to have the clear advantage in being able to escape a 1v1 situation.

Speaking for myself I can tell you that its not pirates that keep me out of Open. I have no problem with a legit pirate or dropping cargo for a legit pirate that is in the right ship to keep me from going right back into SC. Its the sociopaths and killers that have pretty much 0 consequences for their actions. System security response time and power in lawful systems needs to be buffed in a huge way, and there needs to be some increase in the penalty for murder before Im going to be risking my cargo haulers in Open. If they can do something to encourage proper piracy and discourage murder Ill happily trade in Open, but as long as they let the griefers continue to literally get away with murder in lawful systems, not a chance Ill be in Open unless its in my Python, and it won't be carrying cargo.

 

[Cargobane]

WHAT IS THIS NONSENSE!! They should not be able to get away?!

You got BEAT and you want a game mechanic change so your prey has no hope. He's not going to Fight you, and you know that by his load out, and his strategty is obvious, get the FA. And you want dev to investigate this as a world crushing design failure.

Great story but the only sadness is your whine.

 

[Tigga]

WHAT IS THIS NONSENSE!! They should not be able to get away?!

You got BEAT and you want a game mechanic change so your prey has no hope. He's not going to Fight you, and you know that by his load out, and his strategty is obvious, get the FA. And you want dev to investigate this as a world crushing design failure.

Great story but the only sadness is your whine.

I think the main issue is that there is very little skill required at the end of the Type-6. There's a fairly basic procedure to follow. If you follow it you have no problems. If you don't follow it you are probably a sitting duck if the Cobra wants to kill you.

Fundamentally, it should be the more skilfull player (and ship) that comes out on top, not the ones that know the basic rinse & repeat procudure for escaping. Obviously there should be some skill balancing based on ship type and modules, and maybe for equally skilled players the Type-6 in this case should escape, but a large skill gap in favour of the Cobra should allow the Cobra to "win". This is why the suggestion is to remove the basic rinse & repeat method: it takes the skill out of the engagement. The Type-6 can get away every time with a method that, while working it out is clever, doesn't really take much skill to enact. The problem is, without the method, the Cobra can always kill the Type-6 should he want to (and usually he does not want to).

There is clearly a design issue here though: interactions should not be decided by rinse and repeat procedures IMO, but by player skill and ship capabilities. My current problem is I'm struggling to work out a way that the Type-6 could be given an opportunity to show his skill. The best Type-6 driver isn't that much better than an average one - the ship holds you down.

 

[CMDR Saunders]

So in short, you want traders in open play, and you want them bad enough for you to easily kill them ? These already exist: They're called NPCs.

As for your question: Asp masslocks Type 6. Interdiction cost is hwoever going to hurt.

So funny to see Saunders, the pirate who a week ago bragged about being the Blackbeard of Space, now here complaining that there's builds he doesn't understand how to deal with and wants nerfed so he can have easy kills again. What about your I-Win button against haulers with smaller mass and no defenses?

It's like your reading comprehension gets worse, with every new thread. How is that possible? You would think spending so much time on a forum would make comprehension improve... not decline. Its as though you've read an entirely different post and accidentily posted in this thread -- cause nothing in my post suggests anything you're talking about.

When did I brag about pirating? Please point to the thread. I created one about how piracy is fun. No bragging or "im the best pirate EVA!!!" was ever mentioned. Oh I know... ignore this point and keep on shooting out absurdities. You seem to be good at that.

"now here complaining that there's builds he doesn't understand how to deal with"

Remember that comprehension thing? Yeah, here it is again. Try reading the post, this time more slowly. Sound out the words if you have to because it's clear your lost.

"What about your I-Win button against haulers with smaller mass and no defenses?"

When was this requested or asked for? And what haulers are totally defenseless? With the submit, boost, warp technique, who exactly is defense? Please, tell me about this group of people. I'm in a cobra, with no mass lock. Every hauler can submit, boost, warp away. I-win button? At least half of them do this.

As for the haulers that choose to be completely defenseless? Pffff, they can go play solo if they want to play safe and stupid. Not my fault they traded shields for more cargo space and expected everything to be fine.

I don't know if you're trying to be dense or simply trolling for a reply, either way, it's pretty clear what my "issue" is and it's not that traders can get away and use tools to help them do so (which is GREAT) -- it's the submit, boost, warp within 5 to 8 seconds that makes interdiction pointless on any ship even slightly larger than you. If you still don't know what my issue is even now, then like I said, work on your reading comprehension skills.

And if you've read through any of the posts, I've already said several times that it seems a ASP would help with this (as pointed out by other members)... but that remains to be seen for me. I'd like to see how much time the mass lock actually adds to the engagement.

I'm not looking to shoot fish in a barrel, I just don't want to hunt fish that can instantly teleport away as soon as I got them hooked because of some weird game mechanic.

The guy I pulled over would have easily survived 20 to 30 second encounter with his goody bag of tricks and that's awesome. He was prepared and he deserved to escape; he didn't need that cheap tactic to evade me. I wasn't "upset" he got away, I was "upset" that the interaction was so short and definitive because of said mechanic.

That concludes my response your absurd reply. Remember, read slowly and reread if you don't understand something.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

WHAT IS THIS NONSENSE!! They should not be able to get away?!

You got BEAT and you want a game mechanic change so your prey has no hope. He's not going to Fight you, and you know that by his load out, and his strategty is obvious, get the FA. And you want dev to investigate this as a world crushing design failure.

Great story but the only sadness is your whine.

Another one of you.... my god. Where do you all come from.

 

[CMDR Saunders]

I think the main issue is that there is very little skill required at the end of the Type-6. There's a fairly basic procedure to follow. If you follow it you have no problems. If you don't follow it you are probably a sitting duck if the Cobra wants to kill you.

Fundamentally, it should be the more skilfull player (and ship) that comes out on top, not the ones that know the basic rinse & repeat procudure for escaping. Obviously there should be some skill balancing based on ship type and modules, and maybe for equally skilled players the Type-6 in this case should escape, but a large skill gap in favour of the Cobra should allow the Cobra to "win". This is why the suggestion is to remove the basic rinse & repeat method: it takes the skill out of the engagement. The Type-6 can get away every time with a method that, while working it out is clever, doesn't really take much skill to enact. The problem is, without the method, the Cobra can always kill the Type-6 should he want to (and usually he does not want to).

There is clearly a design issue here though: interactions should not be decided by rinse and repeat procedures IMO, but by player skill and ship capabilities. My current problem is I'm struggling to work out a way that the Type-6 could be given an opportunity to show his skill. The best Type-6 driver isn't that much better than an average one - the ship holds you down.

The absolute best post detailing my, and other's, "issue" with the "submit, boost, warp, laugh" mechanic. Could not have said this any better if I tried. Well done. Rep for you.

Perhaps now some of you can grasp the concept that Tigga has so clearly laid out.

 

[Dabba]

The absolute best post detailing my, and other's, "issue" with the "submit, boost, warp, laugh" mechanic. Could not have said this any better if I tried. Well done. Rep for you.

Perhaps now some of you can grasp the concept that Tigga has so clearly laid out.

Its not like there is a whole lot of skill involved in pirating slow, lumbering, unarmed freighters either. Bring the right ship for the right target, and its easy pickings. Bring the wrong ship or pick the wrong target, its an easy escape.

If you're looking for a skill based dogfight perhaps conflict zones are what you're looking for.