Player affecting factions even in Pvt and Solo

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Some features in DDF but not in the game have been discounted as being impossible (not AFAIK by FD but by people defending FD for not implementing them) because of the server based nature of the game.

so for instance persistant npcs and personal bases etc.

now, if we go on the premise of all modes are equal then that would mean FDs hands are tied if the people stating the above are correct. however i wonder... if PP went Open Only then, that would mean the "all modes are equivalent" then goes out of the window. Maybe FD could really go all in on maximising the use of the modes

so we could have solo only base building and RPG elements etc. hell, perhaps even allow P2P multiplayer with friends and as network infrastructure improves over time allow numbers of people in a PG doing this to increase.

IF FD are gonna make PP open only then i think it would be a real opportunity to embrace the advantages of solo and PG as well, for those cases where it is not feasible to have it all controlled via FD servers.

 

[Jockey79]

Putting it to a general vote would mean it's on par with Ship Transfer, which is the only open vote FDev have ever had. Power Play is a long ways away from being that important in the game and to the vast majority of players. It's miniscule compared to the effect Ship/Module Transfer has on the game, as that affects everyone because we all move from A to B.

And as has been stated, whether people like it or not they are being affected by PP. As people use the BGS to reinforce their PP actions.
So EVERYONE is feeling the effects of PP, so they deserve a say. You're only opposed to it, because we all know the answer, only a handful of people want to lock content out from the general population.

Also, I'd like to point out I don't use the transfer feature. Not everyone does use it as it takes too long and is too expensive.
I can move my stuff about faster than the transfer system does and I do it for free. I don't actually know anyone who does use it.
But everyone got a say.

So why was it okay for me to get a say over a feature I don't use, but you're playing games to find an excuse to stop me and others having a say over a feature we do use?
Even if I'd only ever done 2 play sessions of Power Play, that would be more times than I've looked at the transfer system.

I didn't even want the system, just like I don't think auto dock/undock/supercruise should be in the game.
But I'm not spiteful towards other players, so I'll be happy to leave them to it.
Shame other players cannot show me the same respect and just leave me to potter about for Aisling Duval.

How many PP'ers use the transfer system I wonder? How many use the auto features?
Perhaps I should be kicking up a fuss, as it gives them a clear advantage of moving several ships and modules about or letting them AFK the game while I do it the proper way.
Perhaps if people are pledged, all those features should be disabled.

 

[Arguendo]

And as has been stated, whether people like it or not they are being affected by PP. As people use the BGS to reinforce their PP actions.
So EVERYONE is feeling the effects of PP, so they deserve a say. You're only opposed to it, because we all know the answer, only a handful of people want to lock content out from the general population.

So where do you draw the line at what should be voted on by everyone?

So why was it okay for me to get a say over a feature I don't use, but you're playing games to find an excuse to stop me and others having a say over a feature we do use?

LOL

But I'm not spiteful towards other players, so I'll be happy to leave them to it.
Shame other players cannot show me the same respect and just leave me to potter about for Aisling Duval.

Who's being spiteful? I think you're seeing things that aren't there. This is not an attack on you, or any other player. There is nothing personal in any of this. Noone's out to get you here. May wanna take a step back and breathe if you believe so. You seem to take this way too personal.

 

[The Replicated Man]

You seem to take this way too personal.

Alas that is the case of most conflicts in the game regardless of the circumstances.

I get a good chuckle from people who are trying to argue about a game feature that they have little to no understanding of. Such as but not limited to (PvP, Powerplay or BGS)

Take me for instance. I am a PvPer. I have been for almost 4 years. I have done a bit of exploring, but wouldn't consider myself an explorer.
I am not going to waltz into the Explorer subforum and start tooting my horn and arguing with Explorers who know more about exploring than myself. That would be just plain foolish. Does a change to exploration affect me or my gameplay? Not really as It is something I don't do full time.

Pledging to a Power for a extended period of time but doing little to nothing in terms of "actual" powerplay doesn't make you a "Powerplay" pilot.

Same as going to a res site and shooting at a player doesn't make you a PvPer. It's something you have to do on a regular basis in order for you to fall into that category.

I think I can safely say that most people who have played Elite have tried most avenues of play. Powerplay, BGS, PvP, Thargoid Fighting, Trading, Exploring or Bounty Hunting among other things.

Not saying anyone doesn't have the ability to voice their own opinion, but people who dedicate their time to a specific style of play usually know better than just someone who is green in the field.

 

[Oopsie]

The game has become extremely watered down. With each passing update, the galaxy is less and less dangerous. More and more concessions are made to the casuals. IMO that is the state of the game.

So although I think one of the best things for the game is to only be able to affect the BGS from Open, so as to encourage more direct competition among players (vs seeing which player faction can out grind the other.... oh boy!), FDev is not moving in that direction. They seem to want the game to be a safe space. Elite: Safe (in) Space.

 

[The Replicated Man]

The game has become extremely watered down. With each passing update, the galaxy is less and less dangerous. More and more concessions are made to the carebears and the casuals. IMO that is the state of the game.

So although I think one of the best things for the game is to only be able to affect the BGS from Open, so as to encourage more direct competition among players (vs seeing which player faction can out grind the other.... oh boy!), FDev is not moving in that direction. They seem to want the game to be a safe space. Elite: Safe (in) Space.

That is a great photo

 

[Drelthar]

Didn't there used to be this place called, what was it? Hotel California?

Kinda seems like this is the same thing.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Not saying anyone doesn't have the ability to voice their own opinion, but people who dedicate their time to a specific style of play usually know better than just someone who is green in the field.

There is truth here however you also have to look at it from the opposite side of the coin as well.... I dont do PvP in ED (aside from CQC on occasion) and i am far from up to speed on the current PvP meta etc..... however i DO know that apex PvP builds are hugely different to a balanced PvE build - and whilst i do not use them i have seen them if you catch my drift, and those ships absolutely DO have a direct effect on my game - or do when i try to go into open at any rate -. With (some) players very vocal about trying to corral other players into open by removing or limiting game features not in open, then it is very much in my interests to weigh in what i consider to be balance issues with PvP builds despite not being a PvPer myself ......

I hope that makes sense.
As for PP I dont PP yet........... I am not dead against it going open only, however if it doesnt go open only, it is something i will dabble in in the future. i personally would rather it be tweaked so that PvP PP has a role in open but that there is still PP of some description in other modes...... BUT my toys will not be going out of my pram on this either way.

edit.... proof in point the post directly below yours from Oopsie!.

(I do wish the environment had FAR more teeth however, and not just talking npc ships either but collision damage with stations or the ground, or if you mess up on fuel scooping and what not) This stuff has been significantly reduced since launch but that is a separate issue

 

[Jmanis]

Oh this thread again...

BGS provides a living, breathing universe which reacts to all player actions. It must include solo/PG actions to achieve that.

You want open-only "strategy games"? Go do Powerplay and harass FD some more about why they haven't followed-through on open-only Powerplay... I'm all for Powerplay being open only because that's the "Group vs group strategic warfare" aspect of the game.

PS: Neither assessment of the BGS or Powerplay are my own; FD are on-record saying this, repeatedly.

 

[Rampant]

Alas that is the case of most conflicts in the game regardless of the circumstances.

I get a good chuckle from people who are trying to argue about a game feature that they have little to no understanding of. Such as but not limited to (PvP, Powerplay or BGS)

I see that you are either misunderstanding the point, or deliberately misconstruing it.

This isn't about the gameplay "within" the feature we are discussing, or the mechanics of the feature itself - what we are discussing is "access" to the feature. For all players. In all Modes.
Your scorn and derision adds nothing to the discussion except tipping everyone else of to your own character. Thanks.

Take me for instance. I am a PvPer. I have been for almost 4 years. I have done a bit of exploring, but wouldn't consider myself an explorer.
I am not going to waltz into the Explorer subforum and start tooting my horn and arguing with Explorers who know more about exploring than myself. That would be just plain foolish. Does a change to exploration affect me or my gameplay? Not really as It is something I don't do full time.

This is nothing but unnecessary filler and waffle.

Pledging to a Power for a extended period of time but doing little to nothing in terms of "actual" powerplay doesn't make you a "Powerplay" pilot.

Don't necessarily agree with this sentiment - you're half-way there to get my agreement, but not 100%.

Do remember that a player who has pledged can still be a passive PP contributor - getting attacked by adversary power NPCs and destroying them is one such way that a player can do pretty much nought as an "active" PP participant, but still be a passive PP player and contribute, without going around looking for "actual" PP, as you termed it above.

Same as going to a res site and shooting at a player doesn't make you a PvPer. It's something you have to do on a regular basis in order for you to fall into that category.

Again - only half agree. It is perfectly valid English language to call somebody a PvP combat player if they shoot at other players. The clue is in the name. Your attitude appears to be one of misplaced superiority here - who are you to dictate the terms by which any player can denote themselves a PvP player? Do they need to get "approval" from the self-appointed PvP community, or do they need to be any good at PvP combat, what is the metric you want to dictate to other players and we will see if we can find some agreement.

I think I can safely say that most people who have played Elite have tried most avenues of play. Powerplay, BGS, PvP, Thargoid Fighting, Trading, Exploring or Bounty Hunting among other things.

Mostly agreed.

Long time player here and have tried everything that I might enjoy. Which means I haven't tried PvP combat and a few other things. I fully expect I'm not alone in not having tried "everything", even if I have done some PP in the early days.

Not saying anyone doesn't have the ability to voice their own opinion, but people who dedicate their time to a specific style of play usually know better than just someone who is green in the field.

Now here we have a classic case of a what I described above.
Again this is a discussion about PP being removed from modes - not a discussion of the mechanics intrinsic within the feature of PP.
Yet players are manoeuvring for some sway or authority or influence or control by unfair means - namely that they appeal to a false premise in order to make it appear that they should be the ones to dictate terms.

Quite disappointing, really, particularly as it is a transparent ploy.
Perhaps PP players, or PvP combat players in particular, believe that the rest of us are not as clever as they are and can't see through the false premise?


Yours Aye

Mark H

 

[Jockey79]

So where do you draw the line at what should be voted on by everyone?

Well by rights we all had our say in the testing phase of the feature.
Which a few people then said PP should be Open Only and Frontier disagreed.
I even have the quotes from FD on the Wall of Information (link in my sig).

That should have been the end of it, but as long as some people are going to be wailing banshees over it and keep demanding changes to a game wide feature.
Then everyone who will be affected (which in this case, is everyone) should get a chance to give their opinion on it.
It's not as if it's a massive issue, as you pointed out FD has done it before with Ship Transfer.
So just pop something in the launcher and get proper feedback from everyone, not just us few who use the forums.

Who's being spiteful? I think you're seeing things that aren't there. This is not an attack on you, or any other player. There is nothing personal in any of this. Noone's out to get you here. May wanna take a step back and breathe if you believe so. You seem to take this way too personal.

Really?
Okay let's review;

For my own part I don't engage in Power Play, but I see the points from both sides.

There were names popping up that I've never seen before, because they were Powerplayers. I don't dabble in that, so those names are unknown to me.

Yet you keep saying those who don't do Power Play shouldn't get a say over its future.
So why are you here? You don't do it remember, so you don't get a say according to your own standards.

I'm saying we are all affected by Power Play (which we are, like it or not) and should all get say.
And I do Power Play (from within my mates PG granted, we work for Aisling together), but somehow you try to discredit me by accusing me of only doing the module grind and tell me my opinion as a Power Player who thinks we should all have a say, is wrong.

This is you being warm and fuzzy, is it?

Because it looks rather hypocritical from someone who doesn't do Power Play telling those of us who do play it, who deserves a say and who doesn't.
And yes it is rather spiteful saying no one else deserves a say (in this case, non-forum users), even though you're here having your say on it right here.

 

[Arguendo]

Well by rights we all had our say in the testing phase of the feature.
Which a few people then said PP should be Open Only and Frontier disagreed.
I even have the quotes from FD on the Wall of Information (link in my sig).

And then FDev appeared to atleast consider the option, per the Focused Feedback thread. That happens. People change their minds.

Yet you keep saying those who don't do Power Play shouldn't get a say over its future.
So why are you here? You don't do it remember, so you don't get a say according to your own standards

You need to separate a couple of things.
Me discussing it here has nothing to do with me wanting to tell FDev what to do. I've said over and over again that they should ask the people who actually engage in it. That's completely separate from talking about it in this thread. If ever FDev were to ask me, I'd say the exact same thing: "Go talk to the ones who are doing Powerplay day in and day out. They know what works and doesn't." I just have an opinion on the matter, nothing more.
The day they start listening to what people say in every thread here on the forums is the day the game is utterly lost. As in life, you listen to the experts on the subject.

And I do Power Play (from within my mates PG granted, we work for Aisling together), but somehow you try to discredit me by accusing me of only doing the module grind and tell me my opinion as a Power Player who thinks we should all have a say, is wrong.

Nope. I asked you a simple question, and explained exactly why I asked that question. Whatever else you saw in that question is on you, not me.

Because it looks rather hypocritical from someone who doesn't do Power Play telling those of us who do play it, who deserves a say and who doesn't.
And yes it is rather spiteful saying no one else deserves a say (in this case, non-forum users), even though you're here having your say on it right here.

I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.

 

[The Replicated Man]

There is truth here however you also have to look at it from the opposite side of the coin as well.... I dont do PvP in ED (aside from CQC on occasion) and i am far from up to speed on the current PvP meta etc..... however i DO know that apex PvP builds are hugely different to a balanced PvE build - and whilst i do not use them i have seen them if you catch my drift, and those ships absolutely DO have a direct effect on my game - or do when i try to go into open at any rate -. With (some) players very vocal about trying to corral other players into open by removing or limiting game features not in open, then it is very much in my interests to weigh in what i consider to be balance issues with PvP builds despite not being a PvPer myself ......

I hope that makes sense.
As for PP I dont PP yet........... I am not dead against it going open only, however if it doesnt go open only, it is something i will dabble in in the future. i personally would rather it be tweaked so that PvP PP has a role in open but that there is still PP of some description in other modes...... BUT my toys will not be going out of my pram on this either way.

edit.... proof in point the post directly below yours from Oopsie!.

(I do wish the environment had FAR more teeth however, and not just talking npc ships either but collision damage with stations or the ground, or if you mess up on fuel scooping and what not) This stuff has been significantly reduced since launch but that is a separate issue

I understand your point. However I feel that It is so easy to actually make a ship that is both jump capable, and has defenses, for open play travel. All people need to do is invest a little time and have the engineers unlocked. Why I recently flew to deciat in my Travel Krait Phantom and I was pulled by a combat fit FAS, we fought and he ran away with 19% hull.

That's why in response to the common forum threads such as but not limited to: Griefers Everywhere!, Fdev help! I lost my ship in open to Griefers, Dirty Griefer Tactics etc, I just tell people the following.

If you die in Open, that is not on the Griefers, that is on you. Everyone has access to the same engineers and modules these Griefers do and it is so simple to actually make a ship that can survive open and escape or even beat an attacker.

I have heard the counter argument which usually goes like this; Why should I prepare for Griefers in Open, when all I can do is just play in solo? or I am not going to change my loadout just because some griefer is going to spoil my personal narrative. Or My min/maxed paper airplane gets 60ly! I can't sacrifice that!

All I can say to those statements is that those are just simple excuses and make the one saying them look like a lazy fool. You can't change Griefers but you can change the outcome of a gank in open by doing some simple engineering and having some common sense.

I wasn't making this post directly aimed at you personally, I just usually put it in somewhere in threads that head this direction.

Do you believe I got into a argument with a guy about a year ago who when I told to do some engineering, flipped out and turned out to be some anti engineer nutjob??? XD

I get a good laugh out of these forums sometimes lol!

 

[The Replicated Man]

Your scorn and derision adds nothing to the discussion except tipping everyone else of to your own character. Thanks.
This is nothing but unnecessary filler and waffle.
Perhaps PP players, or PvP combat players in particular, believe that the rest of us are not as clever as they are and can't see through the false premise?

Ok Thanks.

In regards to: Perhaps PP players, or PvP combat players in particular, believe that the rest of us are not as clever as they are and can't see through the false premise?

Not at all. However its generally accepted that a person who specializes in a certain field, take a doctor for instance, would have far more experience and knowledge on a certain topic ie medicine than the local clerk at your local health food store.

Same goes for Elite my friend.

 

[Robert Maynard]

However its generally accepted that a person who specializes in a certain field, take a doctor for instance, would have far more experience and knowledge on a certain topic ie medicine than the local clerk at your local health food store.

Indeed - a doctor requires a licence to practice, based on qualifications, as they provide a duty of care to their patients who come to them seeking their services.

The only qualification required for a player of this game is ownership of the game.

 

[The Replicated Man]

Indeed - a doctor requires a licence to practice, based on qualifications, as they provide a duty of care to their patients who come to them seeking their services.

The only qualification required for a player of this game is ownership of the game.

My argument wasn't coming from a License perspective, as that was already talked about (People who actually do certain aspects of the game full time) and are experienced in said area vs someone who isn't.

My comparison was referencing knowledge, not license to practice.

 

[Robert Maynard]

My argument wasn't coming from a License perspective, as that was already talked about (People who actually do certain aspects of the game full time) and are experienced in said area vs someone who isn't.

My comparison was referencing knowledge, not license to practice.

Doesn't change my response - one does not need in-depth knowledge of the game to buy and play the game, nor does one require to gain it to continue to play the game.

The "if you don't play the feature and have an in-depth knowledge of the feature, you shouldn't be allowed to express an opinion on the feature" attitude is not expressed here for the first time - it's a fairly common attitude among those who seek to change the game in ways that might be contentious. However, it's not up to an unelected subset of the player-base to make decisions on behalf of all players....

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Ok Thanks.

In regards to: Perhaps PP players, or PvP combat players in particular, believe that the rest of us are not as clever as they are and can't see through the false premise?

Not at all. However its generally accepted that a person who specializes in a certain field, take a doctor for instance, would have far more experience and knowledge on a certain topic ie medicine than the local clerk at your local health food store.

Same goes for Elite my friend.

I love a good analogy so please do not take this the wrong way as i am mostly teasing, however I would say you dont have to be a gourmet chef to be able to tell if a meal tastes like crap or not

I am not anti engineer at all, (though i think their affects are far far to over powered) however i do have strict rules - of my own making so that is on me i guess - to make it impossible for me to build ships which are essentially invincible against AI.... These rules keep the game interesting and challenging for me against ai, but does mean my ship will always be an order of magnitude weaker than other builds.
This is a choice i make so it is on me... but it only really works because i know i still get the full game experience in PGs, This does suddently change if features get taken and locked to open.
I also feel all equipment should have a place in the game.. and if it doesnt it should not be in the game.... therefore E rated gear should be fit for purpose. I dont buy a car and then before i even dare drive it outside feel the need to get it striped down and rebuilt to GT3 spec.

Personally the loss of PP I could live with ideally so long as there were carrots thrown in there as well (cant have PP, therefore dont spawn PP targets instead spawn other ships instead - so many times my instance is just full of anoying PP targets). but i totally see the problem where players who DO enjoy PP but who do not play in open would feel agrieved.

also there is the issue of the equipement locked behind PP.

 

[The Replicated Man]

I love a good analogy so please do not take this the wrong way as i am mostly teasing, however I would say you dont have to be a gourmet chef to be able to tell if a meal tastes like crap or not

I am not anti engineer at all, (though i think their affects are far far to over powered) however i do have strict rules - of my own making so that is on me i guess - to make it impossible for me to build ships which are essentially invincible against AI.... These rules keep the game interesting and challenging for me against ai, but does mean my ship will always be an order of magnitude weaker than other builds.
This is a choice i make so it is on me... but it only really works because i know i still get the full game experience in PGs, This does suddently change if features get taken and locked to open.
I also feel all equipment should have a place in the game.. and if it doesnt it should not be in the game.... therefore E rated gear should be fit for purpose. I dont buy a car and then before i even dare drive it outside feel the need to get it striped down and rebuilt to GT3 spec.

Personally the loss of PP I could live with ideally so long as there were carrots thrown in there as well (cant have PP, therefore dont spawn PP targets instead spawn other ships instead - so many times my instance is just full of anoying PP targets). but i totally see the problem where players who DO enjoy PP but who do not play in open would feel agrieved.

also there is the issue of the equipement locked behind PP.

That is fair

 

[The Replicated Man]

The "if you don't play the feature and have an in-depth knowledge of the feature, you shouldn't be allowed to express an opinion on the feature"

That is not what I am trying to say. As I mentioned earlier everyone is welcome to their own opinion, however it is my opinion that people should show more respect to people who have more experience, instead of trying to argue and making themselves look like fools.

That is all