please make the full system scanner useful/usable (and thus make it contribute to the game balancing attempts)

[limpetdwarf]

Please verify here:

ANNOUNCEMENT - Game Balancing

I'll ask again - What do 'you all' think should be the maximum amount that can be made in an hour? in any activity. I was going to say less than the cost of a small ship, but then checked the prices and a Python in 10 hours and the money for a Imperial Cutter in 40 hours seems a little too...

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ANNOUNCEMENT - Game Balancing

p front then pulse before unlocking the camera and looking around. That's what I do, saves me having turn around for nothing. Additionally, I have found cores quite far away but usually just as I'm passing them. Occasionally I'll see one last minute, in fact last night I swear I SAW a core...

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I suggest that everyone either automatically has the system maps of all systems within the bubble or that everyone automatically has the system maps of all systems within the bubble they have have visited. If you go outside the bubble, you have to use the system scanner to get the full map. We could argue wheather we should automatically have the maps of all systems outside the bubble that have been fully scanned with the system scanner for those systems we have visited or if we should have to scan the already scanned systems again.

That would mean that players only need to use the system scanner when it makes sense to do so, i. e. when they go exploring, and it would make sense that they get well payed for the data. It doesn't make any sense that the galactic cartographers are spending tons of money to buy data they have already bought hundreds or thousands of times. It would make exploring fun again because we're not already tired of using the system scanner long before we actually get to or want to go exploring, and it would be a separate activity in its own right. The system scanner wouldn't get in the way anymore but be a useful tool that actually adds to the gameply and the fun.

The system scanner should be optional equipment. In exchange for that, make supercruise assist built-in into the ships or at least into the docking computers.

PS:
I'm not suggesting to remove the module slot. With the supercruise assist built into the ship or into the docking computer, we would not loose a module slot and would only gain one if we didn't equip a FSS because the FSS is currently built in.

 

[Factabulous]

Or you could just, y'know, learn how to play the game?

 

[Para Handy]

...........

I agree with @Factabulous

 

[varonica]

I agree with Factabulous and Para Handy.

 

[Ozric]

We could argue wheather we should automatically have the maps of all systems outside the bubble that have been fully scanned with the system scanner for those systems we have visited or if we should have to scan the already scanned systems again.

If you've already scanned a system then you have the system map. If someone else has scanned a system, then you do already have the System Map populated with the bodies.

It would make exploring fun again because we're not already tired of using the system scanner long before we actually get to or want to go exploring, and it would be a separate activity in its own right.

You can buy Universal Cartographics data for populated systems in the bubble. If you're tired of using the FSS from a few systems in the bubble, then I'm not sure exploring is really for you to be honest.

I'm not suggesting to remove the module slot. With the supercruise assist built into the ship or into the docking computer, we would not loose a module slot and would only gain one if we didn't equip a FSS because the FSS is currently built in.

When SCA and the ADC were added to the game all ships gained at least one extra module slot (small ships gained two). So if you're proposing they go, then there's no reason for the ships to have the extra module slot(s).

 

[Sensei Jacksama]

I agree with @Para Handy but not @Factabulous

 

[limpetdwarf]

Or you could just, y'know, learn how to play the game?

Put all information that is required to successfully play the game into the game itself and make it easier to learn, giving players quests, for example. It's the biggest flaw of the game that the required information isn't there and can only painstakingly obtained through many hours of online research that gives a lot of outdated and misleading information.

Make it so that players can learn how to successfully play through just playing the game.

 

[Dean Demon]

Sounds like OP wants a very different game, i don't know about anyone else but i've never had to go anywhere online to look anything up in order to do anything, i just play and learn on the fly which is pretty much what i've been doing for the last 40 years.

 

[gorankar]

Surprised no one has mentioned the cheat that does just what the OP wants.

I figure using the FSS at every jump into the time I expect it to take me to jump from one place to another. I rarely don't FSS a system I have not been to before. It's usually a few hundred thousand credits for an average 2-3 minutes of work.

 

[limpetdwarf]

If you've already scanned a system then you have the system map. If someone else has scanned a system, then you do already have the System Map populated with the bodies.

That's not true. I have never found a system that hasn't been scanned by someone else. It always says in the FSS who has scanned a body first. Nonetheless it shows things in the system as unexplored to me before I scanned them.

Pick a random system inside the bubble on the galaxy map you haven't visited yet. You will not have the option to see the system map. Go there and scan it and you will see who scanned it first --- unless you happened to find a system that hasn't already been scanned by someone else, which is unlikely.

You can buy Universal Cartographics data for populated systems in the bubble. If you're tired of using the FSS from a few systems in the bubble, then I'm not sure exploring is really for you to be honest.

It would be rather tedious and expensive to buy the data for systems inside the bubble. If you buy a car with a built-in navigation system, you don't buy the navigation data for every city extra. But you expect players who are buying ships to buy the data for every star system extra.

What you call exploring gets in the way of doing other things while I'm travelling to places. I scan every system I haven't visited before just to get the data so I can see it on the system map in case I need it. I don't call that exploring, I call it a nuisance because it takes awfully long, and using the FSS is a very stupid, tedious and repetitive task that is better done by a computer and shouldn't be done by humans.

As I suggested, exploring would be something entirely else, and I might have fun doing it.

When SCA and the ADC were added to the game all ships gained at least one extra module slot (small ships gained two). So if you're proposing they go, then there's no reason for the ships to have the extra module slot(s).

There is no reason not to remove the slots, and there are reasons not to remove them. Please see here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/game-balancing.558895/post-8818958

 

[limpetdwarf]

Surprised no one has mentioned the cheat that does just what the OP wants.

I figure using the FSS at every jump into the time I expect it to take me to jump from one place to another. I rarely don't FSS a system I have not been to before. It's usually a few hundred thousand credits for an average 2-3 minutes of work.

And what's the cheat?

How do you get so much money for the FSS data? A lot of systems don't sell for much. A couple hundredthousand credits for a single system is unusal.

 

[sirus66]

Im with OP on this one. So in 2020 we have Google maps but in 3306 we don't have Bubble Maps?

It's extremely inconvenient for no reason other than to waste our time.

 

[Ozric]

That's not true. I have never found a system that hasn't been scanned by someone else. It always says in the FSS who has scanned a body first. Nonetheless it shows things in the system as unexplored to me before I scanned them.

No it is true, just because you don't want it to be doesn't mean it isn't.
If you find a system that hasn't been explored by anyone else then your nav panel and the System Map will be empty except for any stars in the system. It shows things in the system map as unexplored to you, because... you haven't explored them. But you know they exist and their positions because someone else has.

It would be rather tedious and expensive to buy the data for systems inside the bubble.

Yes it would indeed. But it is possible to get data for the systems in the bubble without needing to scan them, could always scan the nav beacon too. Not that you need to scan them all anyway as a lot of systems you have all the data for anyway.

What you call exploring gets in the way of doing other things while I'm travelling to places. I scan every system I haven't visited before just to get the data so I can see it on the system map in case I need it. I don't call that exploring, I call it a nuisance because it takes awfully long, and using the FSS is a very stupid, tedious and repetitive task that is better done by a computer and shouldn't be done by humans.

As I suggested, exploring would be something entirely else, and I might have fun doing it.

Ah OK I see. Your definition of Exploring isn't the same as Frontiers, and so they should change their game to fit you. But then what is your idea of Exploring, because you haven't actually suggested what it would be. But if it's entirely different I'd be intrigued to hear it though the chance of them changing their game for you is quite small I'm afraid. It took us four years to get any changes to Exploration as it is.

There is no reason not to remove the slots, and there are reasons not to remove them. Please see here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/game-balancing.558895/post-8818958

You are suggesting to make the modules they introduced the extra slots for should be integrated. Why then should the ships keep the extra slots? Adding them to the ships in the first place was a bad mistake.

How do you get so much money for the FSS data? A lot of systems don't sell for much. A couple hundredthousand credits for a single system is unusal.

 

[Vetinari]

And what's the cheat?

Scan the Nav Beacon in populated systems, resolves all contacts but sometimes not the FSS itself for some reason, can still get paid for using that.

 

[gorankar]

And what's the cheat?

How do you get so much money for the FSS data? A lot of systems don't sell for much. A couple hundredthousand credits for a single system is unusal.

You can google the jump into system, honk, have it instantly FSS the system, and instantly DSS every planet in that system, cheat yourself. Sorry I even mentioned it actually.

200K is something of a self observed average. If there is a water world, earthlike, ammonia, or any planet bearing a "terraformable" label, and you DSS just one or two for every 10 jumps or so, you will observe something similar.
In bubble had to make 23 jumps earlier. Had to FSS half of them, and DSS 3 high value planets found in them, made 5M+. So I actually beat my average for that run.

I do believe it should be easier to just buy data for every system that has been turned in by a player to Stellar Cartography than it is. But I just don't find running the FSS or occasionally taking a trip out to a planet or POI to scan it all that onerous. In fact, I often consider it fun.

 

[Para Handy]

That's not true. I have never found a system that hasn't been scanned by someone else. It always says in the FSS who has scanned a body first. Nonetheless it shows things in the system as unexplored to me before I scanned them.

Pick a random system inside the bubble on the galaxy map you haven't visited yet. You will not have the option to see the system map. Go there and scan it and you will see who scanned it first --- unless you happened to find a system that hasn't already been scanned by someone else, which is unlikely.
.....

You need to get out and about in the game a bit more then.

Prior to the FSS introduction all systems in the bubble with a population over a certain size were already known to your nav system and you could access their system maps from the galaxy map without having been there. The FSS update converted just about every one of those to "Unknown" - these are the ones now that when you arrive there the complete system map is revealed. I don't know why they did that - I suspect they didn't mean to but would not admit to that.

So you see why some of us say that you should actually learn the game first. It is laughable that you propose "exploration" changes when you have no idea how exploration works.

 

[limpetdwarf]

No it is true, just because you don't want it to be doesn't mean it isn't.

How would know if I ever found a system that hasn't been scanned by anyone? That you assume I did doesn't make it true.

If you find a system that hasn't been explored by anyone else then your nav panel and the System Map will be empty except for any stars in the system.

Then I wouldn't even notice that I have found a system that was never scanned because I usually don't look at the navigation panel when I enter a system. I go into the FSS if I'm getting messages about discovering unexplored things or when I think I haven't been there yet. I have never seen the navigation panel entirely empty. Why would I look at the panel? I'm just passing through.

It shows things in the system map as unexplored to you, because... you haven't explored them. But you know they exist and their positions because someone else has.

Says who, and how am I supposed to know this? And when the system has already been scanned, then there is no reason that I should have to scan it again.

Yes it would indeed. But it is possible to get data for the systems in the bubble without needing to scan them, could always scan the nav beacon too. Not that you need to scan them all anyway as a lot of systems you have all the data for anyway.

Scanning the nav beacon is even worse because I would have to go out of my way to fly to the beacon. I mentioned that not all systems are entirely unexplored even if I haven't entered them before. I don't know on what that depends; it seems systems having more population don't need to be explored (as much). But I can only assume. And how would that make any sense if it were the case?

Ah OK I see. Your definition of Exploring isn't the same as Frontiers, and so they should change their game to fit you.

You can see it that way if you want to. I have made a suggestion that I think may make playing more fun for whoever plays the game which can take out a lot of useless, stupid, repetetive and unnecessary grinding and could fit well into the game balancing attempts the developers have begun and which they wanted feedback from players about.

It's ok when you don't like my suggestion. Unfortunately, it seems that you have not understood what I have suggested.

But then what is your idea of Exploring, because you haven't actually suggested what it would be. But if it's entirely different I'd be intrigued to hear it though the chance of them changing their game for you is quite small I'm afraid. It took us four years to get any changes to Exploration as it is.

I thought it was obvious and that I explained that. Exploring means going to places that haven't been explored by anyone yet and to find out about them. That would involve to get out of the bubble to find such places (simply because it's more likely to find them outside) and to scan them with a FSS, to do surface scans and perhaps to seek out points that appear interesting to you in your SRV, if you like to do that. This is an activitiy I can call exploration, and it should pay well.

Exploring does not mean that I'm simply flying around (inside the bubble) while doing missions, going to an engineer, to a community event, while I'm moving from system to system because I'm trading or whatever. These activities have nothing whatsoever to do with exploring. Yet I am forced to use the FSS on every system I happen to pass through just because I want to have the data in case I want to plan a trip or want to see if there are opportunities for mining or whatever I might need the information for.

The systems inside the bubble have probably all been scanned hundreds or more times. There is no new data to gain from scanning them again. I can't explore them anymore because they have already been discovered and explored by someone else. Nobody would pay for the same old data at all, let alone over and over again, like the cartographers in ED do. It doesn't make any sense. I'm repeating myself here ... Please read and understand what I suggested.

You are suggesting to make the modules they introduced the extra slots for should be integrated. Why then should the ships keep the extra slots? Adding them to the ships in the first place was a bad mistake.

You have obviously not read what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that standard functions like the docking computer and the supercruise assist currently provided by additional modules should be built into the ships themselves or into the docking computer, especially for some ships like a T9 and a Defender which probably nobody docks manually because these ships barely fit through the docking bay, because docking them manually is prone to fines because they fill up the whole docking bay so they easily collide with other ships, and because docking them manually is hazardous because they tend to get stuck in the docking bay and might be destroyed there. Another example is the Beluga Liner. That's supposedly a top-of-the-line cruise ship, but it doesn't even have a DC and an SCA built in. That doesn't make sense. The Beluga is also rather difficult to dock.

Small ships tend to be easier to dock and cheaper. They should have at least the SCA built in because the comfort the SCA provides doesn't have anything to do with the size of the ship. Who doesn't like it, doesn't need to use it and there's no harm done. Docking computers may be arguable for ships that are easy to dock and because they were around from the beginning in Elite 35 years ago. But then, why even bother? There is no reason to because if you don't want to use the docking computer, you can always turn it off --- I sometimes do that. And it's not unreasonable to assume that progress has been made during the last 35 years --- or during the centuries that have passed since Elite --- so that docking computers have not become commonplace but a required safety feature of all ships.

You may see the slots the DC and the SCA occupy as 'extra slots'. Guess what, they aren't 'extra slots' but slots that can carry non-standard modules like a surface scanner so that I don't need to sacrifice a rather large module slot that could better be used for a refinery or cargo etc. for standard and basically essential functions of my ship. It doesn't matter for which task I configure my ship, automated docking and cruise control are functions as basic as the function of the thrusters. (Being able to use different thrusters makes sense because they have different advantages and disadvantages. Using different docking computers and supercruise assists does not unless there were more variants of DCs and SCAs --- if there were, they could be software upgrades for the ships computer. There is no point to have them as extra modules.)

These slots have already been there when I started playing ED. So apparently progress has been made by adding them. Now more progress could be made by building the functionality into the ship(s computer) so that the slots don't need to be wasted for other things. It's what sane engineers would do. It gives the manufacturer an advantage over the competition when they can integrate functionality into their products that provides benefits to potential customers and saves them money. Sound cards for computers used to be extra modules, and they have long ago been integrated and who is still buying a soundcard nowadays?

ED is a game competing with other games. Improve the game and you get an advantage over the competition, even if it's little things like progressing to integrating standard functioniality into ships and making the ships more useable through that way.

If you want to keep living in the past you can try doing that. Yet living in the past seldwhen is a good idea.

Shrugs. Last time I sold map data, I got about 80k in total. I don't remember ever getting 23 million for a single system. Was that a system that has never been scanned before, or did the cartographers waste a lot of money to buy the same data they already have again?

 

[Para Handy]

............

Please stop, it hurts when I laugh this much.

(Seriously, go learn how the exploration system works, then come back here and read how badly you have embarrassed yourself.)

 

[varonica]

Shrugs. Last time I sold map data, I got about 80k in total. I don't remember ever getting 23 million for a single system. Was that a system that has never been scanned before, or did the cartographers waste a lot of money to buy the same data they already have again?

You obviously don't have any idea how exploration works, but I will just point out, one of the advantages of UC buying data for systems that have already been reported by previous players is that players who never leave the bubble and never intend to leave the bubble can level up their exploration rank, otherwise it would be permanently on zero.

High payouts are always undiscovered systems, million can be earned from being the first to discover an ELW or WW and more millions being the first to map, an undiscovered system with just a dozen rocky or icy bodies can return 100k or less if you don't bother to map anything, similar sized systems that have already been explored can return only 20-30k.

Study the system a bit more, it's a game and just giving everyone everything is no fun.

 

[Ozric]

Sound cards for computers used to be extra modules, and they have long ago been integrated and who is still buying a soundcard nowadays?

I mean you are joking aren't you? I thought you just didn't understand how the game works. Sorry but I've tried to explain to you how the things you first suggested either could be done or already were done, and you refuse to accept them as valid, so I'm done here.