You made me laugh!
I totally endorse your comment. I'm surprised there are so few who feel the obvious discrepancies between mass-volume/ handling. The big ships feel tiny indeed. You are on spot with your funny description. Thank you. Rep.
Poll: Implement Ships and Equipment up to Destroyer Class. C5 Weapons and Tier 10 Modules
- Thread starter Sunleader
- Start date
You made me laugh!
I totally endorse your comment. I'm surprised there are so few who feel the obvious discrepancies between mass-volume/ handling. The big ships feel tiny indeed. You are on spot with your funny description. Thank you. Rep.
Unless, and until, Frontier implements a consistent shipbuilding philosophy around hull volumes, this can only make the current design problems worse.
We need ship design that is not arcade/model driven. There will always be a meta, no matter what you do, so building ships that are based on physics instead of game mechanics is the only logical choice.
We need ship design that is not arcade/model driven. There will always be a meta, no matter what you do, so building ships that are based on physics instead of game mechanics is the only logical choice.
It's also nothing less than what was promised to us by Braben during the KS and the Alpha stage dev diaries.
Big ships like Faragut, Majestic etc.
Why not use em for Powerplay gameplay addition. Each power gets say 3 ships to start with.
Powerplay teams could use a power CG / shipyards to build new ones. Other powers could attack these yards slowing production.
Pledged players vote on where to deploy the fleet from a list of viable locations each week.
Powerplay capitol ships that have taken too much damage during the cycle end up being seen beat up for the next cycle.
etc. etc
Why not use em for Powerplay gameplay addition. Each power gets say 3 ships to start with.
Powerplay teams could use a power CG / shipyards to build new ones. Other powers could attack these yards slowing production.
Pledged players vote on where to deploy the fleet from a list of viable locations each week.
Powerplay capitol ships that have taken too much damage during the cycle end up being seen beat up for the next cycle.
etc. etc
I'd be happy to see a couple more large ships, but not so much larger than they form a new tier of ships but instead function as sidegrades to the existing big 3. Something like a Federal Frigate, an Imperial Sloop and a slightly larger Anaconda-like (Boa?), each offering slightly different stats, improving certain facets but at the cost of others. I think before more big ships get added, we will also need more variety in the optional modules to be added to big ships to prevent the only options for big ships to be tanks and traders.
Larger modules could work, but they would have to be added for specific purposes and should only be available for specific ships rather than being implemented simply because simply getting to 10 is a good number. Considering how major a class 8 internal is, a class 10 would literally be something that an entire corvette-sized ship would be built around, as a point of reference a class 10 cargo hold would carry more cargo (1024) than every single slot in a cutter put together (792); alternatively, a class 10 power distributor would clock in at 640 tonnes, which is more than all of the core internals on a corvette put together.
Similarly, going up to class 5 weapons would require a good reason other than to try to justify bigger weapons as their own excuse. I think before worrying about having bigger weapons in the game, it would be nice to see existing size differences with weapons to have bigger changes rather than to be almost the same weapons but with higher DPS. For example, if bigger weapons had higher ranges, then having a Federal Monitor equipped with a single C5 mount (plus a collection of C1-2 weapons for defensive purposes) would function well as a floating artillery platform rather than just being a Corvette that only needs to mod 1 C5 rather than 2 C4s.
I'd rather see the actual capital ships kept for NPC duties, but seeing more variety of them would indeed be nice rather than having them patrolling aimlessly or taking part in CZs. Having giant bulk freighters, orbital constructors, military fleet carriers and the like roaming the galaxy would help the universe feel more alive as well as giving players a load of cool new things to interact with via missions. For example, having a fleet carrier offering missions for players to sign up, get jumped halfway across the bubble and take part in a conflict as part of a large military operation would help players feel like they are a part of the galaxy. Similarly, a bulk transporter could set up shop on the edge of a ring and be buying minerals and selling limpets, letting players sell their goods to the ship rather than going back to a station, with an appropriate loss of profit per tonne but an equal saving in time.
Larger modules could work, but they would have to be added for specific purposes and should only be available for specific ships rather than being implemented simply because simply getting to 10 is a good number. Considering how major a class 8 internal is, a class 10 would literally be something that an entire corvette-sized ship would be built around, as a point of reference a class 10 cargo hold would carry more cargo (1024) than every single slot in a cutter put together (792); alternatively, a class 10 power distributor would clock in at 640 tonnes, which is more than all of the core internals on a corvette put together.
Similarly, going up to class 5 weapons would require a good reason other than to try to justify bigger weapons as their own excuse. I think before worrying about having bigger weapons in the game, it would be nice to see existing size differences with weapons to have bigger changes rather than to be almost the same weapons but with higher DPS. For example, if bigger weapons had higher ranges, then having a Federal Monitor equipped with a single C5 mount (plus a collection of C1-2 weapons for defensive purposes) would function well as a floating artillery platform rather than just being a Corvette that only needs to mod 1 C5 rather than 2 C4s.
I'd rather see the actual capital ships kept for NPC duties, but seeing more variety of them would indeed be nice rather than having them patrolling aimlessly or taking part in CZs. Having giant bulk freighters, orbital constructors, military fleet carriers and the like roaming the galaxy would help the universe feel more alive as well as giving players a load of cool new things to interact with via missions. For example, having a fleet carrier offering missions for players to sign up, get jumped halfway across the bubble and take part in a conflict as part of a large military operation would help players feel like they are a part of the galaxy. Similarly, a bulk transporter could set up shop on the edge of a ring and be buying minerals and selling limpets, letting players sell their goods to the ship rather than going back to a station, with an appropriate loss of profit per tonne but an equal saving in time.
Nope.
I wasnt active in 2014.
Only came around in the later Beta Stages. So I never read it.
Its an Interesting Idea tough.
Not very apparent as to which way Elite goes yet tough.
So far we only got Fairly Small Ships up to Corvettes.
They might be Big in their Supposed Size. But their Handling and Usage so Far is that of Corvettes and Torpedo/Gun Boats.
I am somewhat Interested in what sort of Roles and Handling we will see should we ever get Bigger Ships up to the Destroyer Class or even Bigger.
I for my Part think I would prefer World War 2 Roles and Handling over Cold War.
Simply because WW2 handling allows for a way more Intense Fleet Battle
One thing by the way I have to Add to your Explanations tough
As a German I cant help but Point that one out so bear with me xD
The German Doctrine here was way different
Germany had no Battlecruisers actually. It had some Plans for Battlecruisers. But these never got done.
Germany used an completely different approach
Nowdays these are often just Categorized by US Standarts as Battlecruiser or Heavy Cruiser. But their Role was very Different.
Germany used the "Panzerschiff" which by Allies was often called. "Pocket Battleship" which was an Heavy Cruiser which instead of an Full Battery (3-4 Turrets) of Cruiser Guns. Used an Half Battery (1-2 Turrets) of Battleship Guns.
This way the Heavy Cruiser could stay the Size and Speed of an Heavy Cruiser. But Packet enough Firepower to be Dangerous to Bigger Ships.
To Peoples Surprise this actually also Proved Fairly efficient against Enemy Cruisers.
The other Ship which Germany used was actually still a Battleship. It was sometimes called a Fast Battleship. (Schnelles Schlachtschiff) but still as main Category going as an Battleship.
The Scharnhorst and Gneisenau Ships. Are nowdays often Categorized as Battlecruiser.
The thing is. Unlike American or British Designs. Which Sacrificed Armor to Gain Speed. Gneisenau and Scharnhorst did not Sacrifice Armor. But instead Sacrificed Firepower.
They had considerably less Firepower than the Bigger Battleships by using a Smaller Calibre of Guns (Scharnhorst) or less Guns (Gneisenau) and this way becoming Faster
Thanks to this. The German Battlecruiser Variant was much more Resilent in a Fleet Battle because it could actually take Fire from Enemy Battleships.
Germany had no Battlecruisers actually. It had some Plans for Battlecruisers. But these never got done.
Germany used an completely different approach
Nowdays these are often just Categorized by US Standarts as Battlecruiser or Heavy Cruiser. But their Role was very Different.
Germany used the "Panzerschiff" which by Allies was often called. "Pocket Battleship" which was an Heavy Cruiser which instead of an Full Battery (3-4 Turrets) of Cruiser Guns. Used an Half Battery (1-2 Turrets) of Battleship Guns.
This way the Heavy Cruiser could stay the Size and Speed of an Heavy Cruiser. But Packet enough Firepower to be Dangerous to Bigger Ships.
To Peoples Surprise this actually also Proved Fairly efficient against Enemy Cruisers.
The other Ship which Germany used was actually still a Battleship. It was sometimes called a Fast Battleship. (Schnelles Schlachtschiff) but still as main Category going as an Battleship.
The Scharnhorst and Gneisenau Ships. Are nowdays often Categorized as Battlecruiser.
The thing is. Unlike American or British Designs. Which Sacrificed Armor to Gain Speed. Gneisenau and Scharnhorst did not Sacrifice Armor. But instead Sacrificed Firepower.
They had considerably less Firepower than the Bigger Battleships by using a Smaller Calibre of Guns (Scharnhorst) or less Guns (Gneisenau) and this way becoming Faster
Thanks to this. The German Battlecruiser Variant was much more Resilent in a Fleet Battle because it could actually take Fire from Enemy Battleships.
As far as I am aware, Germany did use battlecruisers, but only in WWI. They used the term grossekreuzer, and these were ships with 8-12 battleship calibre guns and displacements equal to the largest German battleships, similar to the battlecruisers of the Royal Navy that they faced off against. They typically had calibres smaller than the Royal Navy battlecruisers they were up against, but they had thicker armour to compensate and so were far more survivable in fleet actions.
Panzerschiffe refers to two very different categories of ship. The panzerschiffe you mention, the pocket battleships, were basically upgunned heavy cruisers that sacrificed a few knots of speed in exchange for their 28cm main battery. It was just the German navy making the most of what the treaties allowed them, as they were allowed a few self-defence ships of up to 10,000 tonnes displacement so they set out to create the most powerful ship they could within that limit. This is wildly different to pre-WWI era panzerschiffe, which correspond to the armoured cruisers that were used in nearly all navies in the predreadnought era. Armoured cruisers were to the predreadnoughts what the battlecruisers were to the dreadnoughts, being similar in size and armament to the predreadnought battleships but sacrificing a bit of armour in exchange for greater speed, with their sizes being limited only by cost and shipbuilding expertise.
The Bismarcks were indeed proper fast battleships of the time, but most of the documentation of the Scharnhorsts shows them as being officially classed as battleships (I have heard that some official German documents called them "Kleine Schlachtschiffe", or "small battleship"). It was only a couple of Royal Navy documents at the time that referred to them as battlecruisers thanks to their very high speeds compared to their inventory of WWI era battleships, although it turned out in practice that the high speeds were due to advances in engine technology and that was to be pretty much the standard speed for a fast battleship at the time once the battleship holiday of the London Naval Treaty expired (guess what the inspiration for the London Treaty that Denton Patreus is breaking is?). The whole idea of the battlecruiser had pretty much died out during the interwar period, as a combination of improvements to engine technology making battleships faster and the difficulties in making ships go much faster than 30 knots meant that the concepts of the battleship and the battlecruiser pretty much merged by the second world war.
Ok.
Your Jumbling up a few things there. But well not Surprising this aint exactly easy since it stems from Translation Errors which even Wikipedia has trouble keeping sorted. (Wikipedia actually is mentioning this correctly in most parts. By simply Cross Referencing the German Words and the Ships itself rather than only mnetioning the Class)
Germany has no Class which is called "Große Kreuzer"
This is another Class which is actually taken over from the Americans.
The Americans had the so called -LC- "Large Cruiser" Class
The Alaska for example is that one.
But Germany never had this Class.
Germany had here in WW1 again a Different Class.
Which was called "Panzerkreuzer" (Armorcruiser)
This however should not be mistaken for a "Schlachtkreuzer" (Battlecruiser)
An Panzerkreuzer from WW1 (which thanks to the US Classification is nowdays usually called an "Large Cruiser" (Großer Kreuzer) was an Oversized Heavy Cruiser which had both. Increased Armor AND Increased Firepower
Unlike the actual "Large Cruiser" Class the USA had in early WW2 which had only Increased Firepower but still used Heavy Cruiser Armor
This is not Surprising.
Because Interestingly.
"Panzerschiff" and "Panzerkreuzer"
Are both Translated as "Armored Cruiser" when you check em in English.
But they are different.
Panzerschiff would be "Armored Ship"
While Panzerkreuzer indeed would be "Armored Cruiser"
All of which were later simply called Heavy Cruisers.
But there is Distinct Differences.
Large Cruiser (Großer Kreuzer) = An Oversized Cruiser which uses Battleships Weaponry
Armored Cruiser (Panzerkreuzer) = An Oversized Cruiser which uses Weaponry and Armor closer to a Battleship but both not entirely up to Battleship level.
Armored Ship (Panzerschiff) = An Oversized Cruiser which uses Less Guns but an Larger Calibre of Guns.
US/UK Class Battlecruiser (Schlachtkreuzer) = An Battleship which Sacrifices Armor for more Speed
German Class Fast Battleship (Schnelles Schlachtschiff) = An Battleship which Sacrifices Firepower for more Speed.
Japanese Class Fast Battleship (Schnelles Schlachtschiff) = An Battleship which Sacrifices a mix of Firepower and Armor for more Speed
And yes thats correct.
To be Precise.
Both the Bismarck and the Scharnhorst were Classified as "Fast Battleships" The Term "Battlecruiser" was not used in German
Germans also made no Distinct Difference between Fast and Normal Battleships. This is only an Addition.
The Scharnhorst was an Battleships which Sacrificed some Firepower for Speed. Hence it was a Fast Battleship. The Fast is not part of the Class. Its simply added as an Description for this class.
This Topic is unfortunately Skewered by Translation Issues.
One Problem being that the German Translation for Ironclad also comes out to Panzerschiff which makes things even worse. Because even on Wikipedia you have to check the "Deutschland Class" itself to actually find the Term.
Its a Mess to be Honest. So I am not Surprised that anyone not actually from Germany would see through this.
The Problem to begin with. Is that each nation had their own Classifications and their own Ideas of this Classification.
A German Battleship Followed an entirely Different Doctrine than an British one for example.
Most German Capital Ships. Were Significantly Better Armored than the British Ships. But had considerably Smaller Guns.
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Frigates, Destroyers and even Cruisers?
why not.
there is no reason why they shouldnt be in, as long as they are integrated into the gameplay somehow.
you can even let individual players own and control even cruisers by the help of hired npc crew - it would be a very good way to spend a lot of money. this would require a lot of maintenance (in terms of crew wages) which would be a reasonable way to spend hoards of cash for individual players.
at the same time the npc crew can be designed to be as good as humans only, giving human players manning a capital ship's non-helm stations a meaning too.
such a ship would have huge maintenance costs, price. it would give both individual players and groups a good way to spend money and effort and would not feel like a money sink.
why not.
there is no reason why they shouldnt be in, as long as they are integrated into the gameplay somehow.
you can even let individual players own and control even cruisers by the help of hired npc crew - it would be a very good way to spend a lot of money. this would require a lot of maintenance (in terms of crew wages) which would be a reasonable way to spend hoards of cash for individual players.
at the same time the npc crew can be designed to be as good as humans only, giving human players manning a capital ship's non-helm stations a meaning too.
such a ship would have huge maintenance costs, price. it would give both individual players and groups a good way to spend money and effort and would not feel like a money sink.
Been saying I wanted a new size class of ship for over a year. Our largest playable ships now don't give that sensation of being in charge of a massive vessel. I want to the capital ships to be playable at some point too. I like dogfighting but I like naval style warfare even better.
Sunleader, my Navy Ships writeup / analysis is based on the information given out during the Kickstarter and the Alpha phase, and expansion plan revelations about "Large, executive control starships". Farragut and Majestic are never going to be player controlled (there wouldn't be much point in it anyway, I suspect) but Frigates and Destroyers should eventually be.
Technically we cant really rule out other frigates, cruisers, cutters, corvettes, etc all small surface ships in modern classifications up to the point of Battlecruiser/Interdictor must be some sort of the same classification because this is where the capital ship classification usually begins anyways. That being said, where do people get the idea that large escorts control like smaller launched fighters when that's certainly not the case. For instance the F63/Taipan can still out turn a corvette, large ships are far more difficult to use in a PVP fight where as in a PVE fight you are consistently fighting the AI which uses the same tactics over and over, where as in PVP you may face a medium sized vessel in a corvette, and you won't be able to catch him in front of your guns, unless he/she is a crap pilot or catch them in middle of a turn. Same with SWinders, Eagles, Imp Eagles, Couriers, Vultures, FDL's, Vipers pretty much everything up to the Python excluding maybe the dropship and gunship can outpitch a large ship, with lateral or horizontal thrust included Medium sized ships are still the way to go in PVP as they can take out basically damn near everything if used and equipped properly.
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I know.
And well I hope they will be.
Currently we are only up to Corvettes. Which is much too small in my Eyes.
Well so far the Game is Matching the Class Descriptions Pretty well to be Honest.
Fighters got few Forward Weapons = Check
Heavy Fighters got Heavier Weapons and less Maneuverability but often higher Speed due to more Engine Power = Check
Gunboats/Gunships got Arrays of Forward and Side Mounted Weapons for Fast Attack Strikes = Check
Corvettes/Cutters usually have 1 or 2 Forward Main Guns and Arrays of Forward and Side Mounted Weapons = Check.
All of this is Fairly in Line with WW2 and Cold War Designs of the Naval Forces.
Going by this.
An Frigate would be the First Ship to actually have a Rear Mounted Main Weapon.
And it would also be where Ships would start having C4 Turrets and have most Firepower Broadside rather than Frontally.
An Frigate having 2 Front and 1 Rear Turret of the C4 Size would make Perfect Sense when you consider the Designs so Far.
some C3 and C2 Hardpoints Spread on the Sides of the Ship and its Fine.
An Destroyer would then Up the Guns a Bit.
He would have 1-2 Forward and 2-3 Rear Turrets of the C5 Class. As well as some additional C3 Hardpoints to the sides.
In terms of Classification this would actually be completely in line with the Remaining Game.
Especially with Multi Crew coming Up. This would also Make alot of Sense as it would give Players something where its really making an Incredible Difference to have a Second Person on Board as your Turrets aint just Extra Weapons but are your Main Armament
What I'd like to see next is the Alliance navy fleshed out. A few small ships of their own "The Wolf maybe", or an acknowledgement that Falcon de Lacy is their main supplier (and the Anaconda taking the role of their Corvette/Cutter. They need a short range fighter (unless it's the Taipan) and a big navy ship, probably a Destroyer. Maybe they deploy a pair of destroyers where the superpowers send a capital ship.
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If you have seen the concept of the panther clipper that thing definitely qualifies as destroyer class. Much bigger than a large but maybe half the size of a capital ship.
I think these ships are coming no matter what.
I think these ships are coming no matter what.
Aye.
To begin with. I think its high time we got a Way to somehow Actually Destroy some Value in this Economy.
In an Economy which easily Dishes out Trillions just to Build a few Capital Ships.
Its Hilarious that the entire Combined Playerbase is not even Able to Destroy a Single of these Capital Ships.
We need to move towards an Ship Size where we are actually Capable of Fighting and Destroying Capital Ships in Combat.
Nobody says its supposed to be an Easy Task of course.
But its high Time we at least get the Option to
I'd love a good space game ships of all these classes each filling its own role, but I don't think that game is Elite.
Gameplay wise I think they've said they always wanted Elite ships to be about piloting, and beyond a certain size it wouldn't be. I already dislike the large ship mechanics, dogfighting with smaller ships and hitting them with their forward firing main guns. Anything bigger would be a bridge too far and would require entirely new gameplay mechanics. Maybe if they devoted a whole expansion to it, but that's not where I'd hope for them to put all those resources.
Lore-wise, do such ships even exist in the Elite universe? As I understand it the size of the mailbox is a strong limiting factor on the size of ships. Once you get bigger than that you have to ferry stuff back and forth or have a dedicated dock, which is why there's a sharp jump in size lfrom the playable ships to the vast capital ships. I don't recall coming across any mention of intermediate classes of ships - several books feature Anaconda and Cutter sized vessels along with capital ships, but nothing in between (other than the Panther Clipper which is still on the playable end of the range.
Gameplay wise I think they've said they always wanted Elite ships to be about piloting, and beyond a certain size it wouldn't be. I already dislike the large ship mechanics, dogfighting with smaller ships and hitting them with their forward firing main guns. Anything bigger would be a bridge too far and would require entirely new gameplay mechanics. Maybe if they devoted a whole expansion to it, but that's not where I'd hope for them to put all those resources.
Lore-wise, do such ships even exist in the Elite universe? As I understand it the size of the mailbox is a strong limiting factor on the size of ships. Once you get bigger than that you have to ferry stuff back and forth or have a dedicated dock, which is why there's a sharp jump in size lfrom the playable ships to the vast capital ships. I don't recall coming across any mention of intermediate classes of ships - several books feature Anaconda and Cutter sized vessels along with capital ships, but nothing in between (other than the Panther Clipper which is still on the playable end of the range.