POLL: Should ED have an Auto Pilot?

[Werewolf13]

There are two types participating in this thread:

1. Those that are pro-choice/pro-freedom and believe in options for everyone

2. Those that are anti-choice/anti-freedom and believe the correct choice is their choice and therefore must be correct for all others whether they like it or not

Which one are you?

 

[Sandmann]

Can we brainstorm ways of fixing it then? No offense but it's not very constructive to just say I'm vaguely right, but still all wrong without offering any solutions you could live with. You may not like this idea but at least it's an idea.

I'm reluctant to ever complain about the game. I think FD have made an amazing game and are probably wonderful human beings. Even if nothing changes, I'll continue to play. But, travel as it is now is possibly the most skilless, tedious mechanic I've ever seen in a video game. And personally, I feel it's the 30-40 seconds of forced down time per 5 seconds of focus and effort to go anywhere. Not just long range travel, any kind of travel anywhere has this screeching gap in user input.

Sure, would love to, and have on several occasions.

The problem with flight is that's it's boring and repetitive. That's coz once learned it has a difficulty rating just over that of peeling a banana, and because the galaxy itself is predictable, unchanging, and non-threatening. Now compare in game flight with sailing across an ocean or driving across the country today. While there are a bunch of times these can be boring there's also a bunch of times they're not. Things like weather, natural and unnatural hazards, mechanical breakdowns and failures, navigation challenges and errors, and the use of pilotting/driving skills all present challenges to be overcome.

Now, compare sailing a small yacht across the ocean with sailing a supertanker. With the yacht you're using your skills and remaining aware.at all times. Sure, once you're at sea you have to do less than in harbour, but you still have to be engaged with the sailing. It's challenging, and it's fun. With the supertanker however the tug pushes you out, the harbour pilot takes you out to sea, then the computer takes you the rest of the way till another pilot and tug take over. That's BORING. ED already bas too much supertanker.and not enough yacht, and this thread is asking for MORE supertanker!

If you want to make flight interesting you need random events, a changing challenging galaxy, less automation, more choices (meaningful ones) to make more often, and so on. You need to be engaged with the flight, whereas an autopilot will further remove you from it. Right now the "gps" finds you the best route... maybe it should find you the three best, each with different problems? Maybe it should be unreliable, or inefficient? Flight is a case of "point and press" - it's brain dead. Ever flown a light aircraft? It's exciting because it's all hands on, you're battling cross winds, thermals, etc while trying to navigate. Maybe the ED galaxy could have solar winds, em radition fields, mine fields, gravity wells, mutant space goats and so on which would require you to actually FLY the ship instead of pointing and pressing.

Basically, the more you have to do and learn, and the more advantage you get from using skills you've developed the more fun a game is. Gaming is ALL ABOUT overcoming challenges. ED right now has a bunch too much "arcade" and needs an injection of "simulator" to provide some real engagement.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

There are two types participating in this thread:

1. Those that are pro-choice/pro-freedom and believe in options for everyone

2. Those that are anti-choice/anti-freedom and believe the correct choice is their choice and therefore must be correct for all others whether they like it or not

Which one are you?

I'm pro adding content, and.anti removing content. Which one are you?

 

[Arkadi]

I am a player of that kind who thinks that manual travelling a lot is an enomrous time-sink that costs me lots of patients where as I could be relaxing until I am at my destination to do things I enjoy in the game like undermining a system for powerplay or going to my favourite planet for SRV driving or base-assaulting or canyon flying or fighting in a war-zone of my favorie faction or meeting some friends who might be doing some fun stuff at another edge of the bubble, go for some mininig or pirating frosty diamonds or just go visit a nebula to look for barnacles.

There is lots of stuff to do and to enjoy. And most of this stuff requires going there first. And mostly this is a chore. For me. From my perspective of things.

So I'd be greatful for an option for auto-pilot without it costing a slot in my ship. It should be a standard feature. Also I would opt for Commander transfer. But this is another topic. I don't want to paly another game as some might propose. I like Elite Dangerous and its content. I just would love some more "quality of life" features - like this one thats topic of this thread.

 

[Sandmann]

Though for me these sort of games are about being in command of a ship in space, not necessarily flying a ship in space..

You've just summed up the whole Eve vs ED thing in one sentence. In Eve you command, in ED you are (to quote Braben) "one man in a spaceship"... you're a pilot... you control.

Without wating to deride or stereotype at all, you can break this and a lot of other arguments about what ED "should" be down to this. There's a group that just wants to get down to the bit they like, that they see as the "core aspect" of the game. Often that's pvp combat. They see the whole navigating, flying around, making money thing as tedious and unneccisary. Then there's the ones who want to "believe" they're in the cockpit. They WANT to see cargo loading, they WANT realistic delays, they WANT the universe to make sense EVEN IF bits of it are tedious. They WANT to be Han Solo in a freighter scraping for credits and dodging bounty hunters in a hive of scum and villainy.

Personally, I'm in the second group. I want it to make sense, even if bits of it are tedious. From what fdev and Braben have said they are mostly in that group too, though they "balance realism vs playability" as they deem appropriate. There's nothing wrong with the other style of play in a game about that, but I don't think that's what this game was intended as.

 

[BigBANGtheory [VR]]

Let me put it this way. Fdev want to make a game where you fly a tiny spaceship around a huge galaxy and do stuff. They WANT to make it difficult to get long distances BECAUSE it's a huge galaxy, that's specifically why they didn't include jump gates, worm holes, and so on. You're proposing a feature that would take away that difficulty (such as it is) and allow you to avoid it and make a cup of tea. Why would fdev WANT to do that when it would achieve the opposite of what they want, and make it possible for players to DISENGAGE from the game?

I'm not saying that long distance flight isn't a bit boring and simplistic, but REMOVING it is not the answer. If it's broken, FIX it... don't kill it.

...but it's not difficult to travel long distances, it just gets tedious after a while
...I can use a 3rd party app to do it today, though FDev would rather I didn't

On the contrary using an Autopilot or co-pilot could be a risky thing to do to if you are afk you really do risk destruction where as manual flight there is no real risk at all it's as safe as houses. I wouldn't disengage with the game I'd spend much more time exploring and taking in the sights, seek out new things. I think what you fear is players scripting in Sothis runs to auto generate credits with even less effort than required today. You know what I'd agree with that I wouldn't want that either, but you could easily stop that.

So lets recap:

1. An external program can perform the autopilot function today with no control or oversight from FDev, so what you fear or dislike is already possible today
2. Long distance travel is not difficult it is time consuming (which an AP does nothing to change) and repetitive even to the point of distraction
3. A co-pilot NPC is almost certain to be coming at some point, which effectively is an autopilot with conditions
4. Using an autopilot actually carries more risk and danger than flying manually on account of you not being able to react to unexpected events
5. By the time you've reached an Elite trader rank you've probably done close to 1000 jumps and have probably got the hang of not crashing into stars
6. An autopilot doesn't have to fuel scoop for you
7. We already have ship transfer coming which is an NPC autopilot of sorts for other ships
8. We already have a docking computer which is a restricted autopilot for the final stage of travel, arguably the most dangerous and one requiring the most skill and attention of the pilot
9. exploitation of an autopilot can easily be countered by inject unexpected events for tell tale signs

Lets now take your position and PoV, even assume it to be correct for the sake of argument and supported by most players (certainly most forum users that can be fuqd to vote I'd concede that).... put that PoV into the context into the recap points I've listed above.... Even if I agreed with you on everything you've said the position still falls apart because doing nothing with respect to an autopilot just enforces tedium on players that is the net result.

So here comes the quintessential question, assuming (from your PoV) an autopilot breaks the long distance travel mechanic by removing the tedium how would you propose "fixing it" without resorting to an autopilot? Don't defer to it being FDev's problem to solve of course they make the decisions I want to know what alternative you would accept as a fix?

 

[Sandmann]

1. An external program can perform the autopilot function today with no control or oversight from FDev, so what you fear or dislike is already possible today

Irrelevant. That's like my 13 year old step son telling me he's already watched R rated stuff so I should take him to see an M rated movie.

2. Long distance travel is not difficult it is time consuming (which an AP does nothing to change) and repetitive even to the point of distraction

This is the problem. It should be.difficult and unpredictable. Way too gamey right now.

3. A co-pilot NPC is almost certain to be coming at some point, which effectively is an autopilot with conditions

Really? Who said? That's wishful thinking only.

4. Using an autopilot actually carries more risk and danger than flying manually on account of you not being able to react to unexpected events

Hehehe riiight. So THAT'S why commercial pilots use them.

5. By the time you've reached an Elite trader rank you've probably done close to 1000 jumps and have probably got the hang of not crashing into stars

See point 2.

6. An autopilot doesn't have to fuel scoop for you

... yet.

7. We already have ship transfer coming which is an NPC autopilot of sorts for other ships

See point 1.

8. We already have a docking computer which is a restricted autopilot for the final stage of travel, arguably the most dangerous and one requiring the most skill and attention of the pilot

See point 1. And also, "legacy". Elite has always had a docking comouter because it used to.be difficult (and fun). Now it's easy (and boring).

9. exploitation of an autopilot can easily be countered by inject unexpected events for tell tale signs

Or more simply by not including one.

So here comes the quintessential question, assuming (from your PoV) an autopilot breaks the long distance travel mechanic by removing the tedium how would you propose "fixing it" without resorting to an autopilot? Don't defer to it being FDev's problem to solve of course they make the decisions I want to know what alternative you would accept as a fix?

I already gave some suggestions earlier. Stop reading to reply, and start reading to understand.

 

[Matt Harpring]

Sure, would love to, and have on several occasions.

The problem with flight is that's it's boring and repetitive. That's coz once learned it has a difficulty rating just over that of peeling a banana, and because the galaxy itself is predictable, unchanging, and non-threatening. Now compare in game flight with sailing across an ocean or driving across the country today. While there are a bunch of times these can be boring there's also a bunch of times they're not. Things like weather, natural and unnatural hazards, mechanical breakdowns and failures, navigation challenges and errors, and the use of pilotting/driving skills all present challenges to be overcome.

Now, compare sailing a small yacht across the ocean with sailing a supertanker. With the yacht you're using your skills and remaining aware.at all times. Sure, once you're at sea you have to do less than in harbour, but you still have to be engaged with the sailing. It's challenging, and it's fun. With the supertanker however the tug pushes you out, the harbour pilot takes you out to sea, then the computer takes you the rest of the way till another pilot and tug take over. That's BORING. ED already bas too much supertanker.and not enough yacht, and this thread is asking for MORE supertanker!

If you want to make flight interesting you need random events, a changing challenging galaxy, less automation, more choices (meaningful ones) to make more often, and so on. You need to be engaged with the flight, whereas an autopilot will further remove you from it. Right now the "gps" finds you the best route... maybe it should find you the three best, each with different problems? Maybe it should be unreliable, or inefficient? Flight is a case of "point and press" - it's brain dead. Ever flown a light aircraft? It's exciting because it's all hands on, you're battling cross winds, thermals, etc while trying to navigate. Maybe the ED galaxy could have solar winds, em radition fields, mine fields, gravity wells, mutant space goats and so on which would require you to actually FLY the ship instead of pointing and pressing.

Basically, the more you have to do and learn, and the more advantage you get from using skills you've developed the more fun a game is. Gaming is ALL ABOUT overcoming challenges. ED right now has a bunch too much "arcade" and needs an injection of "simulator" to provide some real engagement.

We actually agree on a lot of stuff! I believe your 1000% correct that travel needs to be more engaging. Furthermore, between the 2, that would definitely be a more preferable solution than AP.

You're analogies are super salient (I'll have to take your word for the sailing stuff, I get motion sick too easily to ever set foot on a boat again). You'd have to be crazy to NOT want the things you outlined. Also, your analogies would give some much needed differentiation to flight characteristics between bigger and smaller ships. Was that a goat simulator reference btw? Solar wind + gravity effects can make scooping more interesting (although I'll never be all that crazy about urgent attention being required immediately following a loading screen, that's a kind of a cheap shot). Radiation fields and other areas of negative effect can make SC more tolerable. Someone once mentioned that there should be radar fields that you can avoid if you wish to not be scanned and I always thought that was a great idea.

As much as I'm tired of arguing, I do have to bring up a point though. Sorry! If we added in all your suggestions AND autopilot, it would actually give the player more agency to make risky decisions. A navcom wouldn't be able to handle anything outside of route running. All of the things you suggested could still happen when your AFK or half attentive and then you're in even more danger because you'd be in various states of underpreparedness for the situation.

Furthermore, these solutions don't really help the tedium of multi system point and press jumps. You're only in a system for as long as your FSD cools down/charges/countsdown (30-40 seconds). You're not really in the system long enough for danger to actually reach you (unless scooping, which I think should be done manually). If you insist on adding gameplay, maybe there should be a mini game to make your FSD charge faster or something? My problem is, the minute you hit jump, you're basically out of the game for 40 seconds.

Also, thanks, it's been kind of frustrating having a real discussion about this topic.

 

[Sandmann]

. Was that a goat simulator reference btw?

No, a Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy quote. The Golgafrinchans were leaving because of a giant mutant space goat that was going to eat their planet.

As much as I'm tired of arguing, I do have to bring up a point though. Sorry! If we added in all your suggestions AND autopilot, it would actually give the player more agency to make risky decisions. A navcom wouldn't be able to handle anything outside of route running. All of the things you suggested could still happen when your AFK or half attentive and then you're in even more danger because you'd be in various states of underpreparedness for the situation.

Furthermore, these solutions don't really help the tedium of multi system point and press jumps. You're only in a system for as long as your FSD cools down/charges/countsdown (30-40 seconds). You're not really in the system long enough for danger to actually reach you (unless scooping, which I think should be done manually). If you insist on adding gameplay, maybe there should be a mini game to make your FSD charge faster or something? My problem is, the minute you hit jump, you're basically out of the game for 40 seconds.

Adding the appropriate level of variation and difficulty to flight would render an autopilot harmless, as it would turn off so often you'd have to remain engaged anyway. That would also allow the creation of "kiddie pool areas" too where you'd have fewer hazards (and thus make AP more useful), and more interesting/profitable areas where AP would be more or less useless - much like trying to use cruise control on city streets.

Off topic but also in the interests of making flight less boring... I'd really like to see microjumps broght in so if you jump to a system with multiple stars you could quickly microjump to the next star (though that would kill events like the trip to Hutton station etc). Maybe microjumps wouldn't work near certain types of stars, and AP would cancel with certain EM fields or something. Either way, space travel needs to be more Millenium Falcon or Battlestar Galactica, and less Babylon 5 or Star Trek. That sort of space flight should be for capital ships, not small ships like ours.

 

[LoneKharnivore]

There are two types participating in this thread:

1. Those that are pro-choice/pro-freedom and believe in options for everyone

2. Those that are anti-choice/anti-freedom and believe the correct choice is their choice and therefore must be correct for all others whether they like it or not

Which one are you?

There are two types participating in this thread:

1. Human beings

2. Small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri who hate freedom.

See, I can make wild claims with no evidence too!

Nice combination of logical fallacies there, by the way. A toofer.

 

[Werewolf13]

There are two types participating in this thread:

1. Human beings

2. Small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri who hate freedom.

See, I can make wild claims with no evidence too!

Nice combination of logical fallacies there, by the way. A toofer.

No logical fallacy at all:

Everyone would agree that if an AP was implemented that using it would be a choice.

But some don't want to implement it in any form choice or no. It's their way or the highway.

The above defines a simple binary, yes/no, true/false etc. That's the only two macro level groups in this thread so everyone participating in this thread is in regards to the implementation of an AP is either pro-choice or anti-choice.

Pretty simple really. Don't try to make it harder than it is.

 

[WeirdWizard]

You've just summed up the whole Eve vs ED thing in one sentence. In Eve you command, in ED you are (to quote Braben) "one man in a spaceship"... you're a pilot... you control.

Without wating to deride or stereotype at all, you can break this and a lot of other arguments about what ED "should" be down to this. There's a group that just wants to get down to the bit they like, that they see as the "core aspect" of the game. Often that's pvp combat. They see the whole navigating, flying around, making money thing as tedious and unneccisary. Then there's the ones who want to "believe" they're in the cockpit. They WANT to see cargo loading, they WANT realistic delays, they WANT the universe to make sense EVEN IF bits of it are tedious. They WANT to be Han Solo in a freighter scraping for credits and dodging bounty hunters in a hive of scum and villainy.

Personally, I'm in the second group. I want it to make sense, even if bits of it are tedious. From what fdev and Braben have said they are mostly in that group too, though they "balance realism vs playability" as they deem appropriate. There's nothing wrong with the other style of play in a game about that, but I don't think that's what this game was intended as.

But that's an oversimplification, not everything boils down to you either want ED or you want some other game. There is no reason ED can't be both in this case. Being in command of a ship doesn't preclude you from flying it and flying it doesn't preclude you from making executive decisions. Evoking Eve is a cop out, I don't want to play eve. For one thing I do like to take the stick, but preferably when there's something interesting to do. I do enjoy navigating, trading, even taking my time getting from place to place. I just want to do interesting things while I'm travelling, piloting just isn't interesting most of the time. For me to believe I'm really in the cockpit I'd have to be freed from the need to constantly nurse the ship along, like I would be if I were a trader with his own plane or boat today... Like Han Solo is for that matter, he frequently leaves the ship travelling on it's own (so he can watch the Wookie win). For me it just doesn't make sense for there not to be an autopilot.

People really need to stop making the "you want some other game" argument whenever people suggest changes. Someone suggesting Fallout 3 should have irons sights isn't asking for Call of Duty. Different games, different styles. Nothing in ED precludes or prevents the use of an autopilot, nor would it fundamentally change the experience, except in giving players more freedom to engage in the various other elements it already offers.

 

[S.H.A.D.O]

MUST we have this poll every sodding month?

Please use the search tool in future TC, just go read an old poll.

 

[Matt Harpring]

Hope I did this right. First time trying to separate a quote.

Adding the appropriate level of variation and difficulty to flight would render an autopilot harmless, as it would turn off so often you'd have to remain engaged anyway. That would also allow the creation of "kiddie pool areas" too where you'd have fewer hazards (and thus make AP more useful), and more interesting/profitable areas where AP would be more or less useless - much like trying to use cruise control on city streets.

So we really are mostly in agreement! That's mostly the use case I had in mind. I guess right now it's not really doable to a lack of meaningful flight content. I also saw a use for short stretches during long range travel so I could get a break from the grueling attention grind and not stall my progress (sometimes it is the destination!).

Off topic but also in the interests of making flight less boring... I'd really like to see microjumps broght in so if you jump to a system with multiple stars you could quickly microjump to the next star (though that would kill events like the trip to Hutton station etc). Maybe microjumps wouldn't work near certain types of stars, and AP would cancel with certain EM fields or something.

I thought about that a lot too. It would be all kinds of convenient and I'd use the crap out of it, but it would also functionally destroy SC interdiction as well as some of the other magic FD was able to create within the current game. I came back to AP because that's taking the edge off with less interference with current game mechanics and still leaves room for scale and pace to be preserved (all this is just my crazy opinion, of course).

Either way, space travel needs to be more Millenium Falcon or Battlestar Galactica, and less Babylon 5 or Star Trek. That sort of space flight should be for capital ships, not small ships like ours.

OK this is the part where I have to cop to a less than stellar (!) Knowledge of scifi. I don't want to take this further off topic but I could talk about the differences in FTL travel in different scifi all day (if you start a new topic, I'm totally there). FTL travel will forever and always inexplicably mesmerize me. I mean, what else is there to do in SC but be amazed? I guess that's how I made it this far?

 

[LoneKharnivore]

everyone participating in this thread in regards to the implementation of an AP is either pro-choice or anti-choice

Nope. They are pro-AP or anti-AP, that's it.

 

[lysan]

Nope. They are pro-AP or anti-AP, that's it.

And anti AP got no argument other than we don't want it, and neither should you because it will impact non AP users ZERO NADA ZIP not in any way will it have any influence on other players than those who are using it.

 

[Sandmann]

But that's an oversimplification, not everything boils down to you either want ED or you want some other game. There is no reason ED can't be both in this case. Being in command of a ship doesn't preclude you from flying it and flying it doesn't preclude you from making executive decisions. Evoking Eve is a cop out, I don't want to play eve. For one thing I do like to take the stick, but preferably when there's something interesting to do. I do enjoy navigating, trading, even taking my time getting from place to place. I just want to do interesting things while I'm travelling, piloting just isn't interesting most of the time. For me to believe I'm really in the cockpit I'd have to be freed from the need to constantly nurse the ship along, like I would be if I were a trader with his own plane or boat today... Like Han Solo is for that matter, he frequently leaves the ship travelling on it's own (so he can watch the Wookie win). For me it just doesn't make sense for there not to be an autopilot.

People really need to stop making the "you want some other game" argument whenever people suggest changes. Someone suggesting Fallout 3 should have irons sights isn't asking for Call of Duty. Different games, different styles. Nothing in ED precludes or prevents the use of an autopilot, nor would it fundamentally change the experience, except in giving players more freedom to engage in the various other elements it already offers.

To clarify... I was generalising wildly and not trying to put anyone in a box or restart the "this aint eve" thing.

 

[knowles2]

No
uh-uh
h-uh
nix
nixie / nixy / nixey
nope
nay
nah
no way
negative
veto
out of the question
no siree
not on your life
not on your Nelly
not for all the tea in China
under no circumstances
not for Joe
thumbs down

An if the above doesn't make my opinion on this clear,

,Ez, Geen, jo, አይ, Ոչ, لا, Yox, няма , Жок , Немає ,

Some visual audio explanation of my view on this subject;

[video=youtube;bK1THzguDes]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK1THzguDes"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK1THzguDes[/video]

and another

[video=vimeo;138927060]https://vimeo.com/138927060[/video]

 

[Sandmann]

Hope I did this right. First time trying to separate a quote.

Looks good so far.

So we really are mostly in agreement! That's mostly the use case I had in mind. I guess right now it's not really doable to a lack of meaningful flight content. I also saw a use for short stretches during long range travel so I could get a break from the grueling attention grind and not stall my progress (sometimes it is the destination!).

Yah I wouldn't want to see AP come in without the changes to challenge the use of AP and make it interesting.

I thought about that a lot too. It would be all kinds of convenient and I'd use the crap out of it, but it would also functionally destroy SC interdiction as well as some of the other magic FD was able to create within the current game. I came back to AP because that's taking the edge off with less interference with current game mechanics and still leaves room for scale and pace to be preserved (all this is just my crazy opinion, of course).

Yah, it'd need to be carefully thought out, have significant minimum useful distances etc, to stop it destroying the "feel" of distance between stars.

OK this is the part where I have to cop to a less than stellar (!)

I see what you did there.

Knowledge of scifi. I don't want to take this further off topic but I could talk about the differences in FTL travel in different scifi all day (if you start a new topic, I'm totally there). FTL travel will forever and always inexplicably mesmerize me. I mean, what else is there to do in SC but be amazed? I guess that's how I made it this far?

I was really referring to the non-hyperspace/FTL bits. All the above have pretty boring FTL... you program a destination/course, charge up the whatever drive, get blurry stars and spend a.variable amount of time, then pop out in a local system. The difference is in nor.al.space (which ideally should apply to SC too in ED) that space travel should be difficult, require planning and skill, have hazards and unpredictable phenomena, and generally be an interesting, engaging thing to do... not like Star Trek's "take us into orbit mister data, make it so" point and click type of flight.

 

[lysan]

No
uh-uh
h-uh
nix
nixie / nixy / nixey
nope
nay
nah
no way
negative
veto
out of the question
no siree
not on your life
not on your Nelly
not for all the tea in China
under no circumstances
not for Joe
thumbs down

An if the above doesn't make my opinion on this clear,

,Ez, Geen, jo, አይ, Ոչ, لا, Yox, няма , Жок , Немає ,

Some visual audio explanation of my view on this subject;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK1THzguDes

That is fine, then it's great and fits perfectly into your point of view that a AP will not effect your game play in any way, you can just choose not to use it win win.

 

[BigBANGtheory [VR]]

Irrelevant. That's like my 13 year old step son telling me he's already watched R rated stuff so I should take him to see an M rated movie.



This is the problem. It should be.difficult and unpredictable. Way too gamey right now.



Really? Who said? That's wishful thinking only.



Hehehe riiight. So THAT'S why commercial pilots use them.



See point 2.



... yet.



See point 1.



See point 1. And also, "legacy". Elite has always had a docking comouter because it used to.be difficult (and fun). Now it's easy (and boring).



Or more simply by not including one.



I already gave some suggestions earlier. Stop reading to reply, and start reading to understand.

You scored 0/10, if you want to provide some proper answers or reasoning we can engage in further reasonable debate.