not very honest to not provide the exploration game loop
Polygon and Twinfinite interviews - more Odyssey details, unknowns, and Walking-In-Ships not at launch
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Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
that is not a gameplay loop
This one of the dumbest posts I have ever read.
When did you stop playing? I am sure you must have
@Deareim has quite the talent
LOL you post something that is demonstrably and factually untrue yet complain someone else is wrong. Curious...
Glad that you asked! Although this starts to veer dangerously off topic.
I think the main issue that often arises in these discussions is the obvious differences in what players consider as "Exploration". From what I can read, and imo, your view and definition seems to be extremely narrow, to the point of reducing it all to the absurd of a “button press”. System jumps and discovery scanner etc are just tools and means to be used within the large realm of the exploration gameplay in Elite.
Let’s take a look at a more balanced and independent view of what Exploration gameplay is.
There is a great Youtube channel called “Extra Credits” where game devs and designers chip in from time to time and you can see game design principles of all kinds discussed in detail. I think it is quite interesting and I'd recommend it to those looking for more info on some of those game design topics. The video I link here below in particular describes 4 main fundamental ways to design Exploration gameplay in video games. Feel free to watch it at your leisure, in the mean time here is a tldr summary of those 4 exploration gameplay variants:
Geographic discovery: This is the one that tends to happen in open worlds such as Elite’s, No Man’s Sky or WoW, and it is fundamentally based in the appeal of “what is over the next hill?” This type of exploration, be it designed manually or with procedural generation, tends to be the more expensive one, the one that requires more technical and financial resources to be achieved successfully.
Content discovery: This is similar to geographic exploration but it focuses instead on discovering content instead of new “places”. The risk of this type of exploration is that oftentimes, when we are in a hurry, we tend to look for spoilers or use shortcuts to get to that content instead of solving the puzzle or follow the clues, and which makes us, well, spoil the discovery.
Narrative discovery: This type of exploration gameplay happens when not all of the lore or backstory in the game is presented to you as you play normally, and instead you need to go a bit out of the beaten path and actively explore and search for it, possibly to remote locations.
Mechanical discovery: This kind of exploration pushes the player to discover the interrelation between different game mechanics and tools in the game in order to achieve new or even unexpected results with them. In the most extreme cases this type of discovery leads to the popular min-maxing and metas plus all the balance issues that often go with many games. In the case of Elite Exploration for the purposes of this discussion this category actually represents one of the fundamental pillars of emergent gameplay in the game.
Source: https://youtu.be/FE7lDFAcb4Y
Back to your question about where is the Exploration gameplay, and to be precise, in Elite we can find all those 4 variants of exploration gameplay:
- The first and most obvious one for players is the geographical discovery gameplay. It is in this variant of exploration where we find stellar phenomena, lagrange anomalies, singularities, geological sites, actual and real catalogued systems and stars, those unique planetary and celestial body alignments that take our breath away and all those systems that can be more or less interesting in some cases etc etc. The great thing about Elite’s geographical exploration to boot is that this geography is not static at all but it changes with orbits and and celestial motions making some of those discoveries literally unique.
- The next avenue of exploration gameplay in Elite is the one aimed at specific content discovery based on info available in the game, “treasure hunts” or “easter eggs” thanks to puzzles etc. This exploration gameplay in some cases can even have a very deep impact in your non exploration related gameplay. In this category you can find for example all discoveries related to Thargoids, from the original unknown probes and artifacts, passing through barnacle locations all the way to spectrographs, Thargoid bases discoveries in 2017 and anything related to INRA/Eagle Eye. Also in this category you can find all the localization elements and info related to finding Guardian structures (Ram Tah probes info etc… these ones in particular were great fun for me at least), with all their subsequent impact in game for other gameplay avenues, engineering etc (all those appearing during the 2017-2018 period). In all those cases it is not necessary to be the first one discovering it to enjoy the exploration gameplay there, some of the beacons that were needed for triangulation were discovered by chance at start but many of them are now listed in plenty of sites if someone wants to perform the search at his/her own pace.
- The third variant of those 4 in the video is the narrative discovery gameplay. In Elite this corresponds for example to all the gameplay related to abandoned settlements in the Formidine Rift or the puzzles of the Zurara megaship in 2017, the finding (thanks to beacons around the bubble) of lore content at generation ships that started appearing around 2017-2018, or the Golconda in 2019, Jameson and many other things that I probably forget to mention. All these represent exploration gameplay that, through puzzles, leads to pieces of lore in the game that we would have not otherwise had access to. In these cases we do not really need to be the “first ones” either, each explorer can take his/her time, with more or less spoilers, to go through the clues in order to reach those lore treasures
- To round up the summary with the 4th gameplay variant, Elite also has numerous elements of mechanical discovery, in Exploration, if that makes sense. Given that Elite has been designed as an open world and a sandbox it makes total sense to try and incentivize emergent gameplay, and it indeed seems to have been one of the main goals of FDEV here. The way it is achieved in Elite is by implementing a number of relatively basic and simple tools for the players (hyperspace jump, refuel, drones, scanners, wing mechanics, hyper charge in neutron stars etc) but that can be combined in a virtually limitless number of ways in order to produce results more complex and deep than the sum of its parts. We can find numerous examples of use of this exploration gameplay, some of them quite popular such as the fuel rats, but I personally think it is something that has achieved excellent results in many other exploration related areas (Hull Seals, Iridium Wing, all kinds of expeditions, rallies etc). These exploration emergent gameplay options now extend even further with Fleet Carriers of course.
This kind of exploration emergent gameplay does not happen just because players role play it or just because “the best of Elite is its community” (the community is great though
Source: https://youtu.be/M8cCxSCBjJU
Coming back round to my opening point about different players having different “definitions” of what exploration game play is, of the 4 variants of exploration gameplay discussed above, the 2nd and 3rd ones (content and narrative exploration) will always be consumed by players much faster than any dev can produce them (in any game). And still FDEV has been generating them constantly until 2019. The first one (geographic exploration gameplay) in Elite is virtually endless (and will be further expanded with Odyssey) but for some players, especially those with lots of hours played, this can become boring at some point. Even with the regular addition of new stellar phenomena etc that we have had so far. Only the last exploration variant, exploration emergent gameplay, can imo support and hold exploration gameplay long term in any game, not just Elite.
Exploration gameplay in Elite, especially its emergent one, is best in class imo.
In regards of the "geographical discovery gameplay": you're talking about screenshots and nice vistas.
The "content discovery" gameplay: the interactions to solve puzzles in Elite are shoot, scan (stupid 1 button hold) and drop items to the ground. Not so exciting gameplay here.
The Narrative discovery gameplay: 0 interest since the game mechanics are very little, short and simple. Feels like chasing a ghost.
Mechanical discovery: (?) There's very little emergent gameplay in Elite, since as I've said countless times the game mechanics and tools given to the players are very tiny and the gameplay is curated by FD. The player to player interactions you can see in Elite are fuel transfer, shooting, healing (shooting). Its impossible to have emergent gameplay with so little tools.
The game overall needs more mechanics, what they did with the FSS and the new mining mechanics is a good example of how to improve the game, its a shame they stopped there since every profession needs these kind of improvements. The game change the 1 button holding mechanic to a more complex tool and more interesting.
Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
As mentioned at the very beginning of this discussion, it is perfectly fine if you don't like the exploration gameplay in elite, or if you get bored of it. But as shown in that game designers video Elite exploration actually makes extensive use of all main 4 avenues of exploration gameplay, geographical, content, narrative and mechanical discovery. You asked where the gameplay is and, as shown by actual game designers, there are tons of it in Elite.
And you are again awfully wrong with regards to very "little" emergent gameplay in Elite. As shown above it is precisely the kind of exploration gameplay where you can find the most striking and remarkable examples by players in Elite:
"- To round up the summary with the 4th gameplay variant, Elite also has numerous elements of mechanical discovery, in Exploration, if that makes sense. Given that Elite has been designed as an open world and a sandbox it makes total sense to try and incentivize emergent gameplay, and it indeed seems to have been one of the main goals of FDEV here. The way it is achieved in Elite is by implementing a number of relatively basic and simple tools for the players (hyperspace jump, refuel, drones, scanners, wing mechanics, hyper charge in neutron stars etc) but that can be combined in a virtually limitless number of ways in order to produce results more complex and deep than the sum of its parts. We can find numerous examples of use of this exploration gameplay, some of them quite popular such as the fuel rats, but I personally think it is something that has achieved excellent results in many other exploration related areas (Hull Seals, Iridium Wing, all kinds of expeditions, rallies etc). These exploration emergent gameplay options now extend even further with Fleet Carriers of course.
This kind of exploration emergent gameplay does not happen just because players role play it or just because “the best of Elite is its community” (the community is great though
). It happens rather because the game design and its tools (such as “buttons”) allow for it and the community plays it. And all this happens not just in recurrent massively coordinated operations such as expeditions but also in specific and ad hoc occasions when a handful of players decides to achieve a certain particular goal for whatever reason. None of this is “required”, none of this is a designed or integrated game mechanic, and yet they occur every day, players create their own with the tools and buttons given. This video, just a few months ago, is a great example of how the use of a few simple tools can allow for some very deep, complex, epic and daring exploration gameplay, worth of being portrayed in the Exploration book of records "Etc, etc etc
Weather the game needs more mechanics or not is very personal call. In that regards, we just got new mechanics with Fleet Carriers to expand the tool set. I personally think the levels of emergent gameplay generated with the existing mechanics is perfectly ok, best in class even, given the amazing examples to date, but obviously it will not be me complaining if more are coming.
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As mentioned at the very beginning of this discussion, it is perfectly fine if you don't like the exploration gameplay in elite, or if you get bored of it. But as shown in that game designers video Elite exploration actually makes extensive use of all main 4 avenues of exploration gameplay, geographical, content, narrative and mechanical discovery. You asked where the gameplay is and, as shown by actual game designers, there are tons of it in Elite.
And you are again awfully wrong with regards to very "little" emergent gameplay in Elite. As shown above it is precisely the kind of exploration gameplay where you can find the most striking and remarkable examples by players in Elite:
"- To round up the summary with the 4th gameplay variant, Elite also has numerous elements of mechanical discovery, in Exploration, if that makes sense. Given that Elite has been designed as an open world and a sandbox it makes total sense to try and incentivize emergent gameplay, and it indeed seems to have been one of the main goals of FDEV here. The way it is achieved in Elite is by implementing a number of relatively basic and simple tools for the players (hyperspace jump, refuel, drones, scanners, wing mechanics, hyper charge in neutron stars etc) but that can be combined in a virtually limitless number of ways in order to produce results more complex and deep than the sum of its parts. We can find numerous examples of use of this exploration gameplay, some of them quite popular such as the fuel rats, but I personally think it is something that has achieved excellent results in many other exploration related areas (Hull Seals, Iridium Wing, all kinds of expeditions, rallies etc). These exploration emergent gameplay options now extend even further with Fleet Carriers of course.
This kind of exploration emergent gameplay does not happen just because players role play it or just because “the best of Elite is its community” (the community is great though
Source: https://youtu.be/M8cCxSCBjJU
Etc, etc etc
Weather the game needs more mechanics or not is very personal call. In that regards, we just got new mechanics with Fleet Carriers to expand the tool set. I personally think the levels of emergent gameplay generated with the existing mechanics is perfectly ok, best in class even, given the amazing examples to date, but obviously it will not be me complaining if more are coming.
A "developer" told you Elite is fantastic and you believe him, ok.
Also, They should improve the mechanics of the existing prefessions instead to add new empty features and/or imposible to obtain like FC.
I liked this thread better before the explorers came.
It was a fun thread full of knowledge and dreams!
Now it's like whiney, human poo-poo.
sighs
It was a fun thread full of knowledge and dreams!
Now it's like whiney, human poo-poo.
sighs
![[Diplomacy] Carnegie](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/123/123809.jpg?1553527149){kind=avatar}
I blame the FSS.
Ni
Nice video, I wonder if they've gone deeper with fleet carrier...As mentioned at the very beginning of this discussion, it is perfectly fine if you don't like the exploration gameplay in elite, or if you get bored of it. But as shown in that game designers video Elite exploration actually makes extensive use of all main 4 avenues of exploration gameplay, geographical, content, narrative and mechanical discovery. You asked where the gameplay is and, as shown by actual game designers, there are tons of it in Elite.
And you are again awfully wrong with regards to very "little" emergent gameplay in Elite. As shown above it is precisely the kind of exploration gameplay where you can find the most striking and remarkable examples by players in Elite:
"- To round up the summary with the 4th gameplay variant, Elite also has numerous elements of mechanical discovery, in Exploration, if that makes sense. Given that Elite has been designed as an open world and a sandbox it makes total sense to try and incentivize emergent gameplay, and it indeed seems to have been one of the main goals of FDEV here. The way it is achieved in Elite is by implementing a number of relatively basic and simple tools for the players (hyperspace jump, refuel, drones, scanners, wing mechanics, hyper charge in neutron stars etc) but that can be combined in a virtually limitless number of ways in order to produce results more complex and deep than the sum of its parts. We can find numerous examples of use of this exploration gameplay, some of them quite popular such as the fuel rats, but I personally think it is something that has achieved excellent results in many other exploration related areas (Hull Seals, Iridium Wing, all kinds of expeditions, rallies etc). These exploration emergent gameplay options now extend even further with Fleet Carriers of course.
This kind of exploration emergent gameplay does not happen just because players role play it or just because “the best of Elite is its community” (the community is great though
Source: https://youtu.be/M8cCxSCBjJU
Etc, etc etc
Weather the game needs more mechanics or not is very personal call. In that regards, we just got new mechanics with Fleet Carriers to expand the tool set. I personally think the levels of emergent gameplay generated with the existing mechanics is perfectly ok, best in class even, given the amazing examples to date, but obviously it will not be me complaining if more are coming.
I just blame humans. I know it's a bit of a catch all solution but better to be safe than sorry.
I heard there were forum wars, was fss one of them?
I heard there were forum wars, was fss one of them?
There were a couple of threads about it.
lol still not explained what exploration gameplay loop isAs mentioned at the very beginning of this discussion, it is perfectly fine if you don't like the exploration gameplay in elite, or if you get bored of it. But as shown in that game designers video Elite exploration actually makes extensive use of all main 4 avenues of exploration gameplay, geographical, content, narrative and mechanical discovery. You asked where the gameplay is and, as shown by actual game designers, there are tons of it in Elite.
And you are again awfully wrong with regards to very "little" emergent gameplay in Elite. As shown above it is precisely the kind of exploration gameplay where you can find the most striking and remarkable examples by players in Elite:
"- To round up the summary with the 4th gameplay variant, Elite also has numerous elements of mechanical discovery, in Exploration, if that makes sense. Given that Elite has been designed as an open world and a sandbox it makes total sense to try and incentivize emergent gameplay, and it indeed seems to have been one of the main goals of FDEV here. The way it is achieved in Elite is by implementing a number of relatively basic and simple tools for the players (hyperspace jump, refuel, drones, scanners, wing mechanics, hyper charge in neutron stars etc) but that can be combined in a virtually limitless number of ways in order to produce results more complex and deep than the sum of its parts. We can find numerous examples of use of this exploration gameplay, some of them quite popular such as the fuel rats, but I personally think it is something that has achieved excellent results in many other exploration related areas (Hull Seals, Iridium Wing, all kinds of expeditions, rallies etc). These exploration emergent gameplay options now extend even further with Fleet Carriers of course.
This kind of exploration emergent gameplay does not happen just because players role play it or just because “the best of Elite is its community” (the community is great though
Source: https://youtu.be/M8cCxSCBjJU
Etc, etc etc
Weather the game needs more mechanics or not is very personal call. In that regards, we just got new mechanics with Fleet Carriers to expand the tool set. I personally think the levels of emergent gameplay generated with the existing mechanics is perfectly ok, best in class even, given the amazing examples to date, but obviously it will not be me complaining if more are coming.
So much sucking up to the devs, I can't wait to walk around and be just as bored as I would be in an SRV!
Do explorers strip their ships of all weaponry? yes, becaise we know there's nothing out there apart from nice vista's. That's not finding out what's beyond the horizon, that's just claiming I'm first bragging rights.
Six boxlike structures floating in space that do nothing, copy pasted across the entire galaxy, ditto a couple of space tree's that drop the same minerals found on the surface of planets and some crashed spaceships is not discovering content.
If they'd spent the last five years seeding 'things' out there in the black I might've agreed.
This I'll give you.
One of the biggest criticisms of the game is how all the various parts of the gameplay loops feel divorced from the other. Engineering wrecked fair PVP, Multicrew was half <redacted>, Powerplay not connected to the BGS, a faux economy, no player agency, piracy / smuggling gameplay loops never revisited... The galaxy is like that fly suspended in amber, pretty (not like the fly) but absolutely static and lifeless.
exploration
/ɛkspləˈreɪʃ(ə)n/ - 1. the action of exploring an unfamiliar area. "space exploration"
Viajero
Volunteer Moderator
Actually, planning how to build a ship for exploration, within the constraints of a player ability, credits and the target course and/or destination is precisely one of the most rewarding and deep elements of exploration gameplay. There are tons of different guides and tutorials out there offering tips and advice about all the related tradeoffs available to players. You can also of course do it in a sidewinder but if you want to spend some time refining your build it will pay off.
It is totally fine if you do not like Elite exploration, or some of the elements in its gameplay. The content discovered in Thargoid and Guardian locations led directly at the time to direct elements of ship build, weapons and modules with which to combat Thargoids more effectively, produce launched fighters or to be able to jump longer ranges.The content and integration of that kind of exploration and discovery is actually quite deep. The gameplay is there, and it is a bit more than just "pressing buttons".Cool.
That I can indeed understand. Do not get me wrong, no one has said explo in Elite is perfect. I personally think it is out there with the best exploration in games and I in my case I can only find a handful of other games where the exploration is as engaging to me. But there is still plenty of elements and moving pieces in it, and of course plenty of it can be improved, or even corrected. The issue here was with some patrons absurdly suggesting the only gameplay was "pressing a button".
We are discussing exploration in a video game though. And there I think the main issue that often arises in these discussions is the obvious differences in what players consider exploration to be in video games. If a definition is so narrow that it means that the exploration in Elite is reduced to "pressing buttons" then chess is also simply "moving pieces from tile A to tile B". The Extra Credits video I posted above I think does a very reasonable job at explaining neutrally the different ways to design exploration in video games, and of which Elite seems to have it all.
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