Powerplay 2.0 deep dive - Frontier Live 27th March

Because you aren't the only person looking to influence it, and your actions have an impact beyond just yourself. In my opinion, if a player wants to have an impact on other players, it wouldn't be unreasonable for that to be best served by the multiplayer mode, but that ship has long since sailed.
So trading and mining are PvP, now? Every sale and purchase affects the supply and demand, which affects the price for the next player.

For that matter, making a first discovery/footfall/etc while exploring prevents the entire rest of the playerbase from ever doing it on that planet, so exploration is now the ultimate PvP... because once you've lost, you can never reclaim victory...

Yep the on foot stuff is brilliant yet some folks wanted Fortnite in space and slated it. 🤷‍♂️

O7
And the other end of that spectrum want CoD, Arma, etc xD

The modules are payment for the work I did for them at the time. It was a transaction and they now belong to me. It was in my mercenary contract they signed when they sought my services. But sure, there should be consequences, but not god-handed ones like modules magically disappearing from your warehouse.
Then you should lose them at the rebuy screen, unless you're still pledged to the faction that provides them?
 
One thing I hope they expand on from the current system is the mechanical affects that powers have on the systems they control. In the current system, this takes the form of Li Yong Rui making ships cheaper in his space and Aisling Duval banning Imperial Slavery in her space. Arf and Luke said they wanted to make the effects of powerplay more apparent to the players moving through the bubble, and while I like the idea of the visuals changing, I would like to see a mechanical difference too. At some point, I expect the novelty of the new coats of paint is going to wear off, and I'd like a reason for people to actually care about what's going on in powerplay, even if they don't participate in it.
 
So trading and mining are PvP, now? Every sale and purchase affects the supply and demand, which affects the price for the next player.

For that matter, making a first discovery/footfall/etc while exploring prevents the entire rest of the playerbase from ever doing it on that planet, so exploration is now the ultimate PvP... because once you've lost, you can never reclaim victory...
I love, when people disagreeing with some idea stretch it as far as possible to "prove" that idea is bad XD

If you dont know- we started with powerplay, activities where powers supported by PLAYERS literally gather new grounds, or loose old ones.
Not with exploration, but if you dare- come to Pru Theia CB-X D1-1, steal my gas giants XD

imo groups of players supporting completely different "camps" are much more competitive loop, than selling stuff to one of dozens thousands stations, with common supply at level of millions units. Or scanning one of 400.000.000.000 systems.
 
So trading and mining are PvP, now? Every sale and purchase affects the supply and demand, which affects the price for the next player.

For that matter, making a first discovery/footfall/etc while exploring prevents the entire rest of the playerbase from ever doing it on that planet, so exploration is now the ultimate PvP... because once you've lost, you can never reclaim victory...
The trading PvP meta hasn't been the same since the removal of UA bombing, sadly.
 
This is why FD can be smart and leverage the mission system. You can then quantify risk, reward and allow the player to choose what they want to do. So you can have boring milk runs worth very little or have balls out hell runs into fiery gauntlets for legendary returns.
Nuke, I love your optimism. They've been staring at that piece of obviousness for 10 years (and it doesn't even have to be about PP). You think that penny's gonna finally drop? Now? 😂 Next they'll actually make security matter and tie that to the rewards!
 
So trading and mining are PvP, now? Every sale and purchase affects the supply and demand, which affects the price for the next player.

For that matter, making a first discovery/footfall/etc while exploring prevents the entire rest of the playerbase from ever doing it on that planet, so exploration is now the ultimate PvP... because once you've lost, you can never reclaim victory...


And the other end of that spectrum want CoD, Arma, etc xD


Then you should lose them at the rebuy screen, unless you're still pledged to the faction that provides them?
I love, when people disagreeing with some idea stretch it as far as possible to "prove" that idea is bad XD

If you dont know- we started with powerplay, activities where powers supported by PLAYERS literally gather new grounds, or loose old ones.
Not with exploration, but if you dare- come to Pru Theia CB-X D1-1, steal my gas giants XD

imo groups of players supporting completely different "camps" are much more competitive loop, than selling stuff to one of dozens thousands stations, with common supply at level of millions units. Or scanning one of 400.000.000.000 systems.
The problem is, PvE and PvP doesn't capture the nuance... @Hellrider calls it right in that it's competitive.

But, Powerplay as it currently stands is Competitive PvE. The reason it got introduced is that, much to FDs surprise, people started to use the BGS as a framework for competition, which wasn't FDs intent... something you can see that looking under the hood of the BGS and it's mechanics.

In other words... the BGS was always meant to be non-competitive PvE, rather, just the changing background of the world. Players still turned that into a competitive aspect of the game, but the BGS is inherently unbalanced. That's why PP1 was meant to be the balanced, competitive overlay to the game... but that got applied through a PvE lens.

Unfortunately, PP1 just didn't capture the things that people enjoyed with the BGS; I could provide support to a faction by undertaking a range of activities, or I could support a Power in a particular effort by doing... one thing... over and over. It completely missed the point of what was enjoyable.

Trading and mining from solo isn't PvP. But it is competitive in the context of the BGS. But players controlling the BGS deliberately was never intentional.... so PP2 could very much be a vector for offering broad-strokes changes to the BGS (not just cosmetically) and make it uncontrollable at a large scale. This would need to be coupled with BGS changes which make all states good for the player experience, in their own right. But that's getting a little OT

PP2.0 should still be competitive, but if they really want to make it accessible, that needs to reward PvE and PvP fairly. This means allowing people who just want to PvE (yes, that includes solo) to do so, and to allow people who want to PvP to do so as well.

That doesn't mean shunting people who want to PvE under the noses of those who want to PvP. If we land somewhere where PP PvE activities done in solo can't provide effective impact, it will fail. If people who want to PvP can't do it and provide effective impact as well, it will also fail.

Instead, whatever PP offers needs to push people who want to PvP together, and let people who want to PvE to do just that, regardless of mode. And if they want to incentivise engagement with that mechanic , then losing PvP needs to be as rewarding as winning PvE at an individual level, and winning PvP needs to create an identical differential to "winning PvE" activities at the powerplay perihelion.

This is exactly how games which are dedicated to competitive PvP operate.... participation and loss is still rewarding at a personal level, but success rewards at the collective level, and even more at the personal level.

This can't be achieved in a construct where a PvE player goes into open to do that activity, and walks away with nothing. It's worth calling out here that the difference in rewards in something like EVE between high sec and low/null sec is orders of magnitude in difference. Applying that logic to Elite as a reward split between playing in Open vs playing in Solo is doomed to fail, primarily due to instancing, but for a huge host of extra reasons.
 
The problem is, PvE and PvP doesn't capture the nuance... @Hellrider calls it right in that it's competitive.

But, Powerplay as it currently stands is Competitive PvE. The reason it got introduced is that, much to FDs surprise, people started to use the BGS as a framework for competition, which wasn't FDs intent... something you can see that looking under the hood of the BGS and it's mechanics.

In other words... the BGS was always meant to be non-competitive PvE, rather, just the changing background of the world. Players still turned that into a competitive aspect of the game, but the BGS is inherently unbalanced. That's why PP1 was meant to be the balanced, competitive overlay to the game... but that got applied through a PvE lens.

Unfortunately, PP1 just didn't capture the things that people enjoyed with the BGS; I could provide support to a faction by undertaking a range of activities, or I could support a Power in a particular effort by doing... one thing... over and over. It completely missed the point of what was enjoyable.

Trading and mining from solo isn't PvP. But it is competitive in the context of the BGS. But players controlling the BGS deliberately was never intentional.... so PP2 could very much be a vector for offering broad-strokes changes to the BGS (not just cosmetically) and make it uncontrollable at a large scale. This would need to be coupled with BGS changes which make all states good for the player experience, in their own right. But that's getting a little OT

PP2.0 should still be competitive, but if they really want to make it accessible, that needs to reward PvE and PvP fairly. This means allowing people who just want to PvE (yes, that includes solo) to do so, and to allow people who want to PvP to do so as well.

That doesn't mean shunting people who want to PvE under the noses of those who want to PvP. If we land somewhere where PP PvE activities done in solo can't provide effective impact, it will fail. If people who want to PvP can't do it and provide effective impact as well, it will also fail.

Instead, whatever PP offers needs to push people who want to PvP together, and let people who want to PvE to do just that, regardless of mode. And if they want to incentivise engagement with that mechanic , then losing PvP needs to be as rewarding as winning PvE at an individual level, and winning PvP needs to create an identical differential to "winning PvE" activities at the powerplay perihelion.

This is exactly how games which are dedicated to competitive PvP operate.... participation and loss is still rewarding at a personal level, but success rewards at the collective level, and even more at the personal level.

This can't be achieved in a construct where a PvE player goes into open to do that activity, and walks away with nothing. It's worth calling out here that the difference in rewards in something like EVE between high sec and low/null sec is orders of magnitude in difference. Applying that logic to Elite as a reward split between playing in Open vs playing in Solo is doomed to fail, primarily due to instancing, but for a huge host of extra reasons.
Sorry I always thought this thread was about PP2 and not about PvP vs PvE.

Understand the main thing ! PvE is ALWAYS a victory for the player, and as a consequence of receiving positive emotions.
PvP is the victory of some at the expense of the defeat of others. Players will get negative emotions from the game, is it good ?

Playing in OPEN against Thargoids people share phits of ships, help each other in the common struggle.
 
And yes as far as I remember the mechanics of changing scenery was always in the game, before Odyssey. From the ship you could see from the banners what power was around, the empire or federation icon depending on who owned the station was always visible in the station menu.
I understand this is just going to be expanded even more, as far as Odyssey is concerned.

As for the star map, now when selecting forces zones are painted in the appropriate color and for me it worsens the perception. As I understand it will be removed and will just paint the systems(stars) and not the entire zone. For me this is a good change.
 
Video about the Powerplay livestream by indigo. His feedback:
  1. Powerplay needs more gameplay loops. PP shouldn't solely be combat. There's a ton of opportunity to give players more variety.
  2. PP on-foot should also be improved.​
  3. the Power-specific modules should be rewarded much earlier, not wait 1 month​
  4. What about boarding those capital ships (FPS)
 
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I see only 3 possibilities, all would require some...courage on fdev side.
Penalty for solo.
Boost in open
Or just straight "outside open it's practice target, you can shoot, but it change nothing".
Like dropping explodata during war :)
Implementing mode differences would have proper netcode as prerequisite. Otherwise you are just looking at massive blocklists and/or firewall best-practices. Not gonna happen...
 
Players still turned that into a competitive aspect of the game
Conclusion is simple.
Players maybe "dislike" pvp (but personally, I think that it's more about introduced content and quality, I believe that enough effort with GOOD effects can bait new players into any loop, starting with AX).
But they like competition, even if it is grindfest about filling buckets of different activities only for bragging rights :D
 
PvE is ALWAYS a victory for the player, and as a consequence of receiving positive emotions.
PvP is the victory of some at the expense of the defeat of others. Players will get negative emotions from the game, is it good ?
Sorry for saying it, bro, but pp (even 1.0) isn't pure pve which "is ALWAYS a victory for the player, and as a consequence of receiving positive emotions.".
One group has positive emotions because they "won" system X, another group has negative emotion, because they arent winners. You basically CANNOT separate pp and pvp, as long as you look at pvp like as competition between players for limited resources (so definetely systems in bubble, and definetely not systems to discover, like in one of previous posts in this thread)
With logic "if some players have bad emotions it's bad thing" they should not only remove pvp, but any indirect competition, so basically:
bgs
pp
CGs (especially competitive ones, like war between X and Y, but who know, maybe "any" rewards other than "for 100%" is bad? Hey, Johny wanted top 25% reward, but last day dropped to 50%).

But anyway, it's my last post here, looks like way too much people don't understand, that pew pew between 2 players in their ships isn't only form of rivalry, and I don't want to risk ban from mods with similar mind.
 
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I didn't see any stream, am I correct in assuming that the "big update" is entirely PP focused, or were there mentions of any other new things appearing (apart from the possibly new Python)?
 
PvP is the victory of some at the expense of the defeat of others. Players will get negative emotions from the game, is it good ?
Does the elusive group known as "most people" only get satisfaction from winning?

A challenging defeat or a learning experience can be just as enjoyable in a good skill based PvP game. People can accept their badness and enjoy the small wins (hey I went 1-10 vs that guy, but that one time I killed him felt real good) instead of focusing on the negative emotions.

Yeah of course PP doesn't really have any of that and is just an outcome-focused grind, Even in most good PvP games that stuff is kinda accidental and not designed in and incentivized in a good way usually. This is the one part where having less stats - only positive stats on things you did well (only kills no deaths) can be good.
 
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