Powerplay 2.0 deep dive - Frontier Live 27th March

[Felix DiCestria]

I'm in the US, where broadband access, much like every other public service in this country, are simulataneously both more expensive and of lesser quality when compared to their European counterparts.

Have you seen rural French broadband? If a duck sits on my fence the wrong way its curtains.

And it's probably still better than US urban broadband, and you don't pay a small fortune for it.

Got you both beat, in the UK we had a Nationalised telephone system and to save costs they used facilities of other Nationalised services. Then they privatised they services so they're separate companies.
As a result the telephone exchange box is somewhere in the back of what used to be the Post Office... The paperwork relating to the phone connections vanished at some point so engineers don't have automatic access to the equipment and have to work out what they're dealing with from scratch when it goes wrong.

 

[Darkfyre99]

This is what I'm currently paying $80/month for in the Twin Cities metro area, Minnesota. And it's early Sunday morning. It's much worse during local prime time, once everyone starts streaming.

 

[Rubbernuke]

well, try to have fun while always being grossly outnumbered I guess.

So the same as now then? Sometimes people do like to play the underdog.

 

[Shurimal]

"why someone not interested in having PvP should instead be interested in Powerplay?"

I'm not much of a PvP-r, though I don't shy away from an occasional fight (which I almost never win, of course), either. For me PP 1.0 serves no other purpose than "Oooh, shiny modules!". But if the PP 2.0 will be integrated with BGS/missions and offers unique opportunities like missions or gameplay boons (outfitting discounts, mission payout bonus, "care packages", whatever), I'll gladly sign up, especially if Nakato Kaine or Seo Jin-Ae enter the arena.

Now, as said, I'm not much interested in PvP combat and I would just do various missions and other PvE tasks--and the problem here is asymmetry of PvP. One such asymmetry is what we all know--asymmetry of materiel. A dedicated PvP combat ship will wipe the floor in a fight with anything that sacrifices defenses for mission payload, be it cargo, scanners, limpets, SRV or anything else. Even my combat-fit Krait, 'Vette, Chief and others that never die in PvE combat will not be a match against a PvP FDL or Mamba.

The asymmetry of materiel which leaves me with only one option when facing a PvP-fit ship--to run--leads to asymmetry of action and asymmetry of consequences. While a murderboat would likely not be able to destroy my mission-runner, it will be able to deny me my destination and mission*. If I have an Odyssey mission with 3 hour deadline and am unable to finish it in that timeframe (or before I have to stop playing due to IRL reasons) because of some murderboats denying access repeatedly and always, things get frustrating soon as I rap up fines and reputation loss due to failed missions while the blockaders have really nothing at stakes.

IMO, dealing with these asymmetries in a reliable way is the greatest challenge for "open-only" PP 2.0 if we want to have people doing all these activities PP 2.0 seems to allow with a success rate that doesn't plummet into the ground if there are opposing PvP FDL-s and Mambas around in the system.

*Only exceptions are ships that can reliably outrun a Mamba, but these either don't have much internal space (Courier, Viper, even Cobra) or can't land on medium pads (Orca, Clipper).

 

[Rubbernuke]

LOL! You guys- this is me here in rural France for 50 Euro a month.

I win the poverty broadband game.

 

[Felix DiCestria]

My [extremely radical] point is that "why someone not interested in having PvP should instead be interested in Powerplay?" that does apply even to PP 1.0

I.e. don't dress like surfer, if you're not going to surf that's what we say.

Who's interested in modules and rewards/perks and plays in her/his own universe (=solo/PG) isn't a powerplayer.

If a powerplayer plays in solo/PG is a shame for her/his power and, eventually, for her/his group.

99.9% of who justify that game mode for some reasons is instead using futile excuses.

0.1% is because logged on drunk and selected the wrong game mode.

Item 1 is the modules as these obviously have benefits regardless of mode.

Item 2 would be the effect of the power on the shared galaxy. In PP v1 this is subtle in most cases and nearly irrelevant, (BGS enthusiasts may think differently).
Whether that's true in PP V2 remains to be seen.

 

[yianniv]

Wdym by 'loyalty award'?

If prismatic shields will be made exclusive to Aisling-pledged players, then either everyone will be a loyal servant of the blue haired Evangeline Lilly, or the battles will be anything but enjoyable, with the few remaining followers of every other power desperately trying to use cope builds like flechettes and reverb torps.

I think that once you get to the top level with the Power you support, and get their own pp module, the "care packages" they mentioned would contain the other powers' modules, and you'd be able to choose which one you want. The rest (again, one type at a time) will be available after an appropriate time delay, like it is now.

 

[marx]

So the same as now then? Sometimes people do like to play the underdog.

Same as now? Pretty much, just making it even worse across the board. If something was a bad idea, then PP 2.0 leaving it in won't magically turn it into a good idea.

"Sometimes people do like to play the underdog." is true, but it also implies something which is true as well: that most of the time, people don't like to play the underdog. We are talking about competing against other players, after all.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

There is a cohort of players who are simply not fun to play with. That cohort is currently playing in SoloPG because their preferred “audience” is also walled away in PG/Solo. That leaves a population in Open who can deal with their crap, so they can’t have fun on their terms. That leaves a population who is actually fun to play with, which in turn means I’m willing to at least consider engaging in PvP.

What I don’t understand is why anyone would want to bring these players back into Open. You’ve got to know they’re going to use every dirty trick available to them to avoid engaging with you: “clogging”, VPNs, firewall settings, hacking, traffic spoofing, and a host of other tactics. You’re going to get the exact same outcomes, only with even less PvP, and a lot more annoyances and frustration. Which is simply an environment I don’t consider fun.

I'm curious who these PG/solo vs PG/solo "cohort"s are. I've never seen the PG/solo contingent described in quite that way. My experience is that the PG/solo powerplay crowd are a subset of Empire/Grom players (who also don't hide or deny the fact), and then 5Cers.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Same as now? Pretty much, just making it even worse across the board. If something was a bad idea, then PP 2.0 leaving it in won't magically turn it into a good idea.

"Sometimes people do like to play the underdog." is true, but it also implies something which is true as well: that most of the time, people don't like to play the underdog. We are talking about competing against other players, after all.

I don't really see that, comparing my own experiences being in the smallest two powers who exist in the backwaters. If anything The King has only gained followers going by the Discord because people like the power, its perks and enjoy a challenge. What has happened is the Feds and Imps coalescing into power blocs and fight each other relentlessly.

V2 won't make it worse either, given how its set up. What will most likely happen is larger powers having to be more vigilant because they have many more weak points and high value systems to defend (as described in the FU #4 livestream). Its like a game of Jenga where rivals are always needling the bottom blocks.

In the end it will always be a numbers game and be uneven, but the joy of PP is (unlike the BGS) being the hero that does silly things to win for the team.

 

[Jack Winter]

Assumptions on it aside, it solves a lot of problems if everyone unlocks everything in the same order. So tier 1 -4 might be the lower end modules, 5-8 the interesting and 9- 10 the 'best'. So everyone gets the goodies if you keep up the work.

How about if players will be able to steal them from strong hold systems?

 

[Rubbernuke]

How about if players will be able to steal them from strong hold systems?

I know myself and a lot of others had suggested this over the years- that you steal blueprints, or that you might salvage them.

But we will have to see what the bonuses are- it was evident FD are still working on them given the amusing placeholders on the livestream.

 

[Darkfyre99]

I'm curious who these PG/solo vs PG/solo "cohort"s are. I've never seen the PG/solo contingent described in quite that way. My experience is that the PG/solo powerplay crowd are a subset of Empire/Grom players (who also don't hide or deny the fact), and then 5Cers.

Quite simply, there's always been a cohort of players who play games simply to ruin the experience of others, and they'll take the path of least resistence to do so. In games with open-PvP, they'll be drawn to player-killing newbies and PvE oriented players, and then combat log at the merest hint anyone who can defend themselves. In pure PvE games, they'll kill steal, block access to NPCs, trigger mob rushes, or other disruptive behaviors. In PvE games where there's "dual requests," they'll spam said requests so that you'll get killed by the mobs. In games with ELO ratings, they'll deliberately trash their rating so that they'll get matched with inexperienced players.

In Elite: Dangerous, this cohort can't easily mess with others in Open. Open is too difficult, and frequently too dangerous, to do player-killing consequence free. And because Open is an open-PvP environment, it's also problematic for them to use indirect ways of messing with others while in Open. So they move to solo instead. 5C is a classic example of this type of behavior.

Of course, these aren't the only types of players who aren't fun to play with. Some players simply don't realize that they're having a negative effect on others with their behavior. Thankfully, many of those players will also be naturally drawn to Solo/PG as well when given the option.

This has resulted in an Open population where the amount unfun behavior is much lower compared to similar games I've played in the past. As a result, and much to my surprise, I have fun in Open. Part of that is, without a doubt, the crummy instancing. But mostly, it's because the types of players I least want to play with are walled away in Solo/PG, where they're the least effective and ruining my gameplay, and frequently they're so ineffective at doing so, I don't even notice that they even exist.

 

[aRJay]

This is what I'm currently paying $80/month for in the Twin Cities metro area, Minnesota. And it's early Sunday morning. It's much worse during local prime time, once everyone starts streaming.

View attachment 391152

LOL! You guys- this is me here in rural France for 50 Euro a month.

View attachment 391153

I win the poverty broadband game.

While here in the middle of the UK I am getting this
Latency
24 ms
Download
21.15 Mb/s
Upload
0.47 Mb/s
I would need to look elsewhere to see what such incredible speed is costing me.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

Quite simply, there's always been a cohort of players who play games simply to ruin the experience of others, and they'll take the path of least resistence to do so. In games with open-PvP, they'll be drawn to player-killing newbies and PvE oriented players, and then combat log at the merest hint anyone who can defend themselves. In pure PvE games, they'll kill steal, block access to NPCs, trigger mob rushes, or other disruptive behaviors. In PvE games where there's "dual requests," they'll spam said requests so that you'll get killed by the mobs. In games with ELO ratings, they'll deliberately trash their rating so that they'll get matched with inexperienced players.

In Elite: Dangerous, this cohort can't easily mess with others in Open. Open is too difficult, and frequently too dangerous, to do player-killing consequence free. And because Open is an open-PvP environment, it's also problematic for them to use indirect ways of messing with others while in Open. So they move to solo instead. 5C is a classic example of this type of behavior.

Of course, these aren't the only types of players who aren't fun to play with. Some players simply don't realize that they're having a negative effect on others with their behavior. Thankfully, many of those players will also be naturally drawn to Solo/PG as well when given the option.

This has resulted in an Open population where the amount unfun behavior is much lower compared to similar games I've played in the past. As a result, and much to my surprise, I have fun in Open. Part of that is, without a doubt, the crummy instancing. But mostly, it's because the types of players I least want to play with are walled away in Solo/PG, where they're the least effective and ruining my gameplay, and frequently they're so ineffective at doing so, I don't even notice that they even exist.

Thanks - it's an interesting perspective I'd not really considered before. But I'm guessing with Elite you don't have specific evidence for this, however plausible it is (these people are invisible), rather it's based on how you've perceived people play multiplayer games in general? I think there are some specific interests in Elite that buck this pattern and serve a particular side, but that's another issue.

I'm also interested where these players would go if certain loopholes in powerplay are removed.

 

[DYSEQTA]

Excuse my ignorance. What is 5C?

 

[Rubbernuke]

Excuse my ignorance. What is 5C?

5th column- people who pledge to a power they want to destroy and exploit loopholes from within.

So for example, prepping and expanding the closest system to a capital- utterly devastating that would be impossible to fix, ever.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I'm also interested where these players would go if certain loopholes in powerplay are removed.

Given voting, consolidation, CC as a currency, turmoil orders is gone nearly all old 5C avenues are closed in V2.

From what I can tell systems are improved by BGS work (IIRC) and that all expansions are treated as separate- so one can't mess up others (its just effort). I suppose you could extend into silly places, but unless the 'real' players build on that trap it won't work.

Regards PvP, if player kills are on an S curve farming would be curtailed, and that using metrics available could mitigate such activity (or fine tuning the value of one kill).

For things like PP FC heists you could also mute solo and PG INF effects.

So for most of what has been shown many holes are now closed and that now playing normally is the way to go. For the rest its up to FD.

 

[metatheurgist]

The thing is, aside from hacking, all the "dirty tricks" I listed aren't against the TOS, unless Frontier considers having a firewall to protect your network (which you may not have permissions to alter), are on a busy network or dialup, or use a VPN due to being on a public network to be against the TOS. We already know that "graceful" logging out to not be against the TOS, which many people actually consider to be "combat logging."

Or just live in Australia.

This game's networking solution and instancing rules are... suboptimal... at the best of times when you want to be instanced with others. It's even worse to get instanced with people you're indifferent to.

When your game mechanic requires jelly to be nailed to a wall, give it up.

ED is a game about choices and tradeoffs. Its the same old "why do I have to play" arguement.

Ah, you think FD should sell it for Arx then?

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

Given voting, consolidation, CC as a currency, turmoil orders is gone nearly all old 5C avenues are closed in V2.

From what I can tell systems are improved by BGS work (IIRC) and that all expansions are treated as separate- so one can't mess up others (its just effort). I suppose you could extend into silly places, but unless the 'real' players build on that trap it won't work.

Regards PvP, if player kills are on an S curve farming would be curtailed, and that using metrics available could mitigate such activity (or fine tuning the value of one kill).

For things like PP FC heists you could also mute solo and PG INF effects.

So for most of what has been shown many holes are now closed and that now playing normally is the way to go. For the rest its up to FD.

So you've told me where they won't be going. It's a start .