Powerplay Powerplay and what I think needs to be done.

[Dillon Fallon]

As I said before, even if this would make sense, the result would be of people exploiting this to have an advantage for their very own Power, a new kind of even more harmful 5C. Every relevant action should be dealt against NPCs, the human factor would be to basically make those actions impossible (or fighting against the sabeuteurs to make them possible). This way we'd have different roles and purposes. Considering this I've always proposed a Community Goal-style reward system, with Command Capitals as the value to calculate the single reward for all the CMDRs, this way all the CMDRs will be incentivized to help and to do that well, because their rewards will be higher accordingly.

I suppose some if it depends on where you stand on how much is in open. Personally I'd like to see a powerplay system that rewarded offensive PvP more, but I think you are right that preventing exploits will be a huge headache in that kind of system. I don't do PvP myself, but personally I see the lack of meaningful PvP opinions as an issue in a 'spaceships with guns' MMO.

Looking at it again, I'll accept that yours is going to be the best solution I've seen, given the current limitations. At least we seem to agree on tearing it down and starting again.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Oooh, we doing what should be done with PP?

Cool!

I'll reiterate what i said in the past then (because this thread is 100% reitation of old points anyway ).

PP should be tied to the BGS factions. Any Faction that gets above a certain number of controlled systems becomes a power. That faction leader then becomes a power. Power benefits are linked to the government type. Powers grow and fade based on their faction. You lose enough systems, you are no longer a power.

PP is not a separate system, its just an extension of the BGS. A reward for those who build up their factions to a certain size.

Pledging would no longer be needed now we have sqaudrons that can be associated with a faction. There could be some sort of pledge system though whereby you get some sort of bonus/malus on your BGS work depending on whether you are working for your faction or for another faction. Therefore no need for FD to implement the powerplay mission system they talked about. It would just use the regular mission system.

If FD wanted to go the extra mile, PP modules could remain a thing, having certain modules available depending on the government type. This could perhaps tie into the pledge system, or maybe just be available to all.

Now, this is going to leave the PvPers out in the cold of course, as it does nothing to give them a reason to PvP.

Therefore two possible soluitions exist. Create a system with the powerplay system that works specifically off PvP, or create a separate PvP system.

Since a lot of PvPers want a territorial game, and PP is a vehicle for this, can we think of a way to make it relevant?

Perhaps one way would be to have PvP activities affect the relative strength of the factions within and outside of their territories. So, by getting PvP kills against another power's agents you increase the effect of influence from your faction in their terriotiry and your own while weakening the effect of their influence.

This would encourage combined PvP and PvE groups to work together, with the PvPers providing the kick to BGS influence gains and losses from the PvEers. If your PvPers do well, it makes the life of the PvEers easier, and vice versa. The problem with this idea is its too easily gamed. People are competitive in general, and its not hard to imagine some people, especially those with alt accounts, just blowing themselves or their friends up while pledged to a rival power over and over again. It would be tricky to implement safeguards against this.

Therefore it might be best if we don't consider having any sort of PvP system as part of PP as any effect from losing is too easily gamed. There should only be a benefit for winners.

Therefore let's consider a separate system for the PvPers. Some sort of galactic standings of PvPers, where the better you are at PvP, the more kills you have, the more rating you get. What benefit that should bring for you personally or your group would need some thinking about. There are some obvious ones that could be implemented for the CMDR in quesiton. Decals, credits, materials, paintjobs, maybe special tags when people target you, such as Hero or Champion.

I'm thinking such a system would naturally also track not just kills, but the nature of the kills. Whereby if there is a large difference between you at the target, you would actually loose standing. So going around ganking newbies would send your PvP score not only down, but possible even negative. Enough of that and your get a tag of "Coward" or something similar. Some people would wear such a label, but that's on them, for everyone else it would be a good indiator of the other player. Killing players with bounties would net you more points than killing people without.

Of course, none of this will give those who want things like OOPP because they think it will give them more soft targets to blow up, but i think we can safely ignore their desires as I don't think any game dev is going to cater to such players.

Ok, all this would require a lot more work than just making PP open only, but open only is a half baked solution that won't change the nature of PP much and will most likely cause most powers to implode overnight as they lose a majority of their PvE supporters. The loudest proponents of OOPP are not those who are going to be happy hauling A to B over and over and over again, and for the gankers, its not likely to bring them more soft targets either.

Its worth thinking about anyway. Stop fixating on Open Only when its not likely to give you what you imagine it will give you. Think bigger, think better, think outside the box, don't get stuck with half-baked solutiions, otherwise you might get hired by FD!

EDIT: Extension to my separate PvP idea. Each week or month a winner is declared (automatically of course - based off kill points) and while they are the reigning champion a number of effects come into play: The champion during this time cannot select any mode except open. They also appear on the galaxy map at all times with a marker regardless of whether you are a friend or not. On the other side, they could get some benefits as well, like increased bounty payouts and perhaps cheaper outfitting and ship costs.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Personally I'd like to see a powerplay system that rewarded offensive PvP more, but I think you are right that preventing exploits will be a huge headache in that kind of system. I don't do PvP myself, but personally I see the lack of meaningful PvP opinions as an issue in a 'spaceships with guns' MMO.

Well if you think about it PvP would be a consistent "negative" force for merits. For example, let's say you're trying to complete a PvE task to help your Power, maybe fortifying, and I'm in there, trying to sabotage your actions. Another CMDR, pledged to your Power, could come and help you, making for you possible to complete that task. In this way we'd have escorts, patrols, a lot more of different setups and variables for both attakers and defenders.

PP should be tied to the BGS factions. Any Faction that gets above a certain number of controlled systems becomes a power. That faction leader then becomes a power. Power benefits are linked to the government type. Powers grow and fade based on their faction. You lose enough systems, you are no longer a power.

You know, I've been on your same page for quite some time, but it finally would be redundant. What's the point to make Powerplay something like a mega-BGS, aka a mega-grind? If you see the facts, in the end, Open Play is something that first of all changes the gamestyle dramatically, considering outfits, interactions etc. There's absolutely no point to copy the grindy mechanics already present in the BGS. Most importantly the new BGS rules are more than enough to make a faction grow with much more control than before (especially considering multiple conflicts, which allow a faction to take over more than a system per time completely in time). The BGS is already there, it works mostly because it's local, it's rare that two factions collide, because the bubble is pretty big.

Powerplay should fill a hole for Open Players (not pure PvPers, again: run away should be an option, always), which have no real ground to measure between themselves because, at the end of the day, it's always the usual grindy gameplay that is most relevant.

Being Powerplay something so "large" in proportions (managing multiple systems) conflict is inevitable, well, it's the intrinsic characteristic of Powerplay, so Open Only is what should make the mechanic what it is.

That's the reason why I do not want Power Modules anymore, even different triggers considering government or even alligeance, Powerplay should just have some special effect to give more variables to the Galaxy (security, bonus for factions with the same Superpower, special rules about commodities etc), but really nothing more.

There's no point to have a bigger BGS when you already have a BGS, especially because Powerplay is already designed for this kind of competition, it just needs for the Devs to have a little courage and make it better, as they made better the BGS listening to the Community.

 

[Rubbernuke]

To justify Powerplay in a post BGS updated world it needs to offer a new experience that the rest of the game cannot do. Therefore it can't really be another BGS, it has to be something totally different in scope and play.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

What's the point to make Powerplay something like a mega-BGS, aka a mega-grind?

PP is already a mega grind. Making it open only will make it more of a grind as those who continue playing PP will have to work even harder to maintain the status quo, since a large number of PPers i suspect will simply quit should it go open only. On top, those in open will face people looking to stop them, making their task even harder. In effect it will be a nightmare grind for those trying to move the PvE tokens.

The BGS is less grindy as you are free to choose from a wide range of activities to perform and mix and match, while the current PP system (which would remain even if it went open only) is very limited in what you can do.

If you see the facts, in the end, Open Play is something that first of all changes the gamestyle dramatically, considering outfits, interactions etc.

Yes, which can be a plus and a minus. It enourages people to fly in well outfitted ships, although it does mean you have to consider the meta. But ok, no real objection to this comment, and those who are flying in open should be outfitting appropriately.

There's absolutely no point to copy the grindy mechanics already present in the BGS.

It wouldn't be a copy. It would be the BGS we have, just with the ability of powers to arise, with some pluses and minuses on top. And again, if you want to talk grindy, PP is 10x more grindy than the BGS.

Most importantly the new BGS rules are more than enough to make a faction grow with much more control than before (especially considering multiple conflicts, which allow a faction to take over more than a system per time completely in time). The BGS is already there, it works mostly because it's local, it's rare that two factions collide, because the bubble is pretty big.

This is theoretically a good thing isn't it? And allow more control over factions, so better for those looking to manage their empires. Some factions, and therefore powers, might look to avoid conflict, and perhaps work through diplomatic means. Which won't always work, there will be belligerent factions who would of course seek to provoke conflicts. All rather realistic to my mind.

Powerplay should fill a hole for Open Players

If someone likes powerplay, they can already do it, regardless of mode. Open only means taking PP away from those who prefer to play in other modes, just to satisfy the demands on those who play in open. Its 99% PvPers who are trying to get Open Only pushed though, and its 99% people who have zero interest in actually doing the PvE aspect of PP.

Think about this, what is going to happen if it goes open only? Who is actually going to be doing all that PvE grinding? There are a couple of extremes here (with a middle ground of course). Assuming those who play "git gid" (because if they don't gid gud they will not be playing PP for long), either on the balance of things, you can make successful runs of PP tokens, in which case, its just an annoyance getting pulled from time to time, or the PvPers will usually win the day, in which case the haulers will get frustrated. A lot depends on how many PvPers take to PP in relation to those hauling. If a lot of PvPers, then its not a big leap of imagination to think there will be systems covered by wings of PvPers, who will serial interdict any players entering systems.

So, while PvPers will go on at lengths about how its possible to survive any attack (Rinzler's git gud guide to trading), and it might be right, if we look at it at the player level, what is likely? Those who can't git gud, or just can't be bothered, will stop doing PP. Less people hauling PP tokens. Those who do git gud, will escape those interdictions most of the time, depending on presence of enemies and whether they get serial interdicted. Serial interdictions are not fun for targets, i'm hoping you agree. Eventually they wear you down, and enough and its just so frustrating you will just quit, so that would be even less people hauling PvE tokens.

Perhaps you see where this is going? After some time, who will be left hauling those PvE tokens? Only those who are really good at hauling and escaping from attacks and are really really dedicated to powerplay, and of course the PvPers. So, what will likely happen to the powers?

Sure, its speculation on my part, and others might think differently, but basically it seems to me like you will end up with a lot less people overall doing powerplay, only the hardcore, and those who are hauling simply won't be able to make enough deliveries to support their powers. The PvPers will hang around seeking out the remaining haulers, the haulers will have a nightmare time, and will have to grind like crazy, and since they are skilled pilots, they might just think, forget this, and go over to doing the PvP instead.

At which point, perhaps it would simply have been better if FD made PP a pure PvP activity and scrapped all the PvE aspects (something i actually created a thread about long ago).

Being Powerplay something so "large" in proportions (managing multiple systems) conflict is inevitable, well, it's the intrinsic characteristic of Powerplay, so Open Only is what should make the mechanic what it is.

How much conflict will there be if all the powers implode due to lack of haulers if it was made open only?

it just needs for the Devs to have a little courage and make it better, as they made better the BGS listening to the Community.

Excuse me, but please, you are not the community and neither are just the open only supporters. We are a large and diverse group of people with our own desires and priorities. If it was my decision, i'd probably have dumped PP a long time ago and stopped spending resources on it (which is pretty close to what FD appear to have done, although i would have actually removed it from the game until such a point where i could implement something better).

Ultimately, i see the problem of PP being one of mixed PvP and PvE, the combat people and the haulers.

For there to be an engaging PvP system, I personally believe it should be built 100% around PvP, with no PvE elements. This would also encourage PvPers to target PvPers rather than people just hauling goods. Maybe there could be some sort of territorial game associated with this, maybe not. The thing i hear most seems to be PvPers just want a reason to PvP, so it doesn't require it to be a territorial game, it just needs something that will provide a focus for the PvP.

Please note, i don't really have a horse in this race. I turned off PP soon after 1.3 landed, and if FD did make it open only, it wouldn't affect me much. Actually, it might be even a benefit. With less people doing PP (at least, that is what i think), and most of them just shooting each other, it should mean less people messing with the BGS flipping systems to be friendly to their powers. It might be a real boon for those of us who work the BSG without considering PP.

My objections mainly stem from how it would require FD to take a feature away from part of the community who have been enjoying it to please another part of it, and that other part, in my mind, won't actually get what they think they will get, and PP will end up being even less popular than it is already.

Of course, you may disagree with my predictions, and the only way we would ever know the truth is if FD were to actually make it happen.

Regardless, i came into this thread to try and enourage people to look for other solutions to the desire of people for PvP focused gameplay, rather than just "Open only, its the only way!"

Open only is not a solution i think... open only might be a partial solution, but it would need a lot more than just that. For a start, fortifacation/expansion/prep requirements would have to come down a lot, to counter the loss of all the PvE haulers who simply will not move to open, unless you want all powers collapsing overnight.

Remember, if people are to be believed, PP is currently dominated by people hauling in PG/solo... if that is indeed the case. Ever power seems to declare all their people are in open, its only the other guys who are hiding in PG/solo

Sorry for making you read so much (assuming you read even half of it)

 

[Agony_Aunt]

To justify Powerplay in a post BGS updated world it needs to offer a new experience that the rest of the game cannot do. Therefore it can't really be another BGS, it has to be something totally different in scope and play.

Well, there is the idea i suggested a long time ago of removing all the PvE elements and making it a pure PvP activity. It got poo poo'd by a lot of PvPers though... for some reason. I can't imagine why!

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Well apparently you don't understand what the main point in all of this is.

First of all: you talk about people quitting Powerplay if it's ever gonna go Open. What about the people who stopped because it's not Open Only?

I'm trying to talk about something different. First of all the BGS is grindy: I own a PMF, I know that. There's a lot of maintenance to do, there's limits theoretically about how much you can do in the 24 hours tick, but it's still the same "complete the task to have an effect" as it is Powerplay right now.

And here lies the problem: as it is Powerplay right now. Right now Powerplay is grindy, even more than the BGS, makign it already some kind of super-BGS. There's a part of the community that would love to try something else.

And you can't do a "pure PvP" thing, where just the kill matter, first of all because is plain and dumb, second because, as I wrote before, it's terribly exploitable and would make this "PvP only thing" totally fake, another "grind fake kills to the death".

So: we've got already something for people who don't want to be bothered by other CMDRs, but what about the ones that want to be bothered? Because, as you told me, you are not the community either, you're just giving your opinion based on what you like and what you don't.

Of course I'm doing the same, don't get me wrong, but at least my opinion considers something this game lacks: an Open Only mechanic to make any kind of palyer interaction, both hostile and cooperative, really matter.

Yes, many people would probably stop playing Powerplay. But I think many more will join in.

The truth is neither you or I can know this before it happens, the only objective thing we can say is that, right now, the Open Play community's got nothing to do, because, and you'd be intellectualy dishonest to say differently, Open Play actions in Powerplay are irrelevant if compared to the pvt/solo grind, because the fact there's no human competition at all gives you the possibility to have much more efficient ships for example or just you've got nothing to slow you down.

We always say powerplay is dead anyway. Great. Leave it to us. I think it will feel more alive than ever with Open Only and better game mechanics.

Or: we can leave it the bot-grinding-fest it is right now. We all know the tricks: turret-boats, botting, etc. You think that's fair? I don't. I just want a game mechanic for people that want to bother with player interactions, and have an opportunity to measure if my team is doing well or not.

Do you really want to deny that to me and many others?

EDIT

Of course I'm talking about an Open Only Powerplay with better game mechanics and much more variability to do merits. And you only consider the attacking PvPers, what about the defenders? We will have those too. And if you want to play well you'll be forced to do different actions of course. So let's not put too many things together: we've got the game mechanics, we've got the competitivity and we've got Open Only, which should be the milestone for this kind of mechanic, because, sic et simpliciter, there's no other game mechanic for that right now.

 

[Justinian Octavius]

First of all: you talk about people quitting Powerplay if it's ever gonna go Open. What about the people who stopped because it's not Open Only?

I would like to know from the people complaining which Player Groups these are that apparently oppose Open Only. As far as I am aware all the Player Groups that do Powerplay are fine with Open Only except for that 'terrorist' 5C one who complained when it was proposed, happy to be corrected.

CMDR Justinian Octavius

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Well apparently you don't understand what the main point in all of this is.

Well, there are various points worth discussing here and it started with a suggestion as to what would make PP better. I believe i am contributing to that discussion.

First of all: you talk about people quitting Powerplay if it's ever gonna go Open. What about the people who stopped because it's not Open Only?

An excellent point. How many is that? Its an interesting question and one that's hard to determine. I mean, sure, we get a few people around here who declare its the reason, and on the various PP discords and whatnot, but in real numbers, how many? Now, how many of them quit because they want to haul and get shot at by PvPers, and how many quit because they want to shoot at haulers? Think about that one for a moment

I'm trying to talk about something different. First of all the BGS is grindy: I own a PMF, I know that. There's a lot of maintenance to do, there's limits theoretically about how much you can do in the 24 hours tick, but it's still the same "complete the task to have an effect" as it is Powerplay right now.

And here lies the problem: as it is Powerplay right now. Right now Powerplay is grindy, even more than the BGS, makign it already some kind of super-BGS. There's a part of the community that would love to try something else.

All valid and i'm in agreement. So, if the PvPers are wanting a PvP game that is challenging, engaging, and fun, perhaps they would be best off stop pinning their mast to a massive PvE grindfest and look to promote an alternate solution?

And you can't do a "pure PvP" thing, where just the kill matter, first of all because is plain and dumb, second because, as I wrote before, it's terribly exploitable and would make this "PvP only thing" totally fake, another "grind fake kills to the death".

I'm sorry. Please go tell Fortnite, Overwatch, and many other games that PvP leagues are not possible

Yes, i see many problems with powerplay being oriented around PvP, some of which might not be easily resolved, if at all. But we can do some theorycrafting on it. I don't think its easy to bolt it onto powerplay as you would have a PvP system competing with a PvE system, and that is problematic on many levels, as we can see as things stand. The PvEers want one thing, the PvPers want another, and that is why we have this whole thing going on about open only, with PvPers thinking PvEers want to be constantly interdicted and shot at by gankmobiles..... i'm not sure where they get that idea from.

However, a separate system with PvP rankings could exist. The guys in San Tu have their own ranking system, although it is under controlled and monitored situations.

So: we've got already something for people who don't want to be bothered by other CMDRs, but what about the ones that want to be bothered? Because, as you told me, you are not the community either, you're just giving your opinion based on what you like and what you don't.

The BGS? Or you mean PG/solo? The ones who want to be bothered can fly in open, that's how it works, and i think it works well. And indeed, i'm not the community, none of us are, we all want different things. One of the things FD has to do all the time is consider their interests and the interests of the players, and decide what they want to implement and how. Threads like this can be useful for FD, especially if the players are coming up with creative ideas. Threads which just rehash old themes though... those aren't really going to help them much. They already know a portion of the community want PP to be open only, they have heard it many times.

Of course I'm doing the same, don't get me wrong, but at least my opinion considers something this game lacks: an Open Only mechanic to make any kind of palyer interaction, both hostile and cooperative, really matter.

Ok, what i'm hearing here is only PvP matters, and that PvE is beneath consideration. This is an attitude i've seen quite a bit from PvPers. That only their form of play is worthwhile. PvEers are to be looked down upon. At best they are fodder, to be shot at for the lulz and to shout "git gud" at.

Here's a funny thing, maybe you've seen, the odd thread from a PvPer crying they can't fight back in a BGS war because their opponents are in PG/solo. Its because the PvPer doesn't want to do the PvE. Well, that's the BGS, and perhaps the PvEers should take a condescending and superior attitude and tell the PvPer to "git gud". It would be rather ironic, dontcya think?

The attitude i feel often in these discussions is, PvEers should play the game the way the PvPers want, their desires should be subsumed to the desires of the PvPers.

Why?

It doesn't have to be this way. PP is a PvE mechanic. Maybe it wasn't meant to be, but it is. FD could make it open only, they could add more incentives for PvP, but that will make it more and more PvP oriented, you'd get PvEers dropping out and PvPers coming in, at which point, its no longer Powerplay. In which case, why not leave PP (or at least look to make it a better PvE experience), and instead focus on adding a PvP mechanic that is dedicated to PvP?

I don't know, it seems like the really logical thing to do.

Yes, many people would probably stop playing Powerplay. But I think many more will join in.

Fair enough, like i said, only time will tell on that should FD make it happen. Like i said above, it will probably attract PvPers and drive away PvEers. Who will then do the hauling?

The truth is neither you or I can know this before it happens,

Yes, i said that myself in my previous post.

the only objective thing we can say is that, right now, the Open Play community's got nothing to do, because, and you'd be intellectualy dishonest to say differently,

Well, that's one way to try and shut down a dissenting opinion, and i am going to dissent. The open play community has a lot to do, and many are doing it. A lot of them are doing similar stuff that people in PG/solo are doing, except with the possibility of PvP. I guess most are not doing PP, but that's probably because, like me, they think PP is a steaming pile of horse manure.

I hope you are not confusing the PvP community with the Open community, but even that would be wrong. PvPers can still get their jollies on in a number of ways, including PP and BGS. Open isn't empty of people to fight with.

Open Play actions in Powerplay are irrelevant if compared to the pvt/solo grind, because the fact there's no human competition at all gives you the possibility to have much more efficient ships for example or just you've got nothing to slow you down.

That's a fair comment. However, the option remains for all players to play in any mode, so if you want efficiency, you go into PG or solo to do your hauling as well. If you want the challenge of open, do it in open. Are you wanting to haul? Are you a hauler? You want the challenge? Do it in open! The modes are there for all people to choose from as they please. And i've seen a fair few open only proponents nipping into PG/solo when it suits their needs, so they can't be that opposed to the modes.

We always say powerplay is dead anyway. Great. Leave it to us. I think it will feel more alive than ever with Open Only and better game mechanics.

Sorry, are you trying to shut down dissent again?

I'm in favour to some extent of improvements to powerplay. I think there is a chance of it being a good system, just not in the same way as you. Powerplay certain appears dead, although i know a few who are active in it and enjoy it, i think most play in open as well. Having said that, and i think i said earlier, i'm not sure what i would do with it if i was in charge, apart from my suggestion to tie it to the BGS. Maybe i'd apologize to the fans and simply trash it, more important things to work on than a failed system. Or maybe i'd give the open only experiment a try, it could work... or not. At least doing it would stop these discussions one way or another

Or: we can leave it the bot-grinding-fest it is right now. We all know the tricks: turret-boats, botting, etc. You think that's fair? I don't. I just want a game mechanic for people that want to bother with player interactions, and have an opportunity to measure if my team is doing well or not.

Nope, people using bots should be dealt with. Same goes for all forms of cheating. Its a separate issue.

As for how well your team is doing, well, that's shown in the stats. If you haul more, you're doing well. Get hauling

Do you really want to deny that to me and many others?

Not at all, and i don't believe i gave any indication that i wanted to deny you any sort of challenge or enjoyment or fairness. Again, i just disagree on the way to achieve it.

EDIT

Of course I'm talking about an Open Only Powerplay with better game mechanics and much more variability to do merits. And you only consider the attacking PvPers, what about the defenders? We will have those too. And if you want to play well you'll be forced to do different actions of course. So let's not put too many things together: we've got the game mechanics, we've got the competitivity and we've got Open Only, which should be the milestone for this kind of mechanic, because, sic et simpliciter, there's no other game mechanic for that right now.

Not at all! For me to be interested in PP there would need to be some sweeping changes. PP as it stands is just a mindless A to B delivery grindfest and occasionally (depending on your power) the need to go kill some enemies. Its absoloutely abysmal, and this is why i keep saying open only is not a solution. My point is, without those changes, it will still be a A to B grindfest for those wanting to contribute in an additive manner. Those who want to contribute in a subtractive manner will not necessarily find more targets, and if more PvPers get involved, that will create an imbalance between wolves and sheep, putting more pressure on the haulers, possibly to the point that they stop hauling as well.

Possibly...

 

[Rubbernuke]

Well, there is the idea i suggested a long time ago of removing all the PvE elements and making it a pure PvP activity. It got poo poo'd by a lot of PvPers though... for some reason. I can't imagine why!

The thing is, you don't need to do that. PvP is not just shooting each other, it is any situation between hostiles. Its the act of carrying out your mission be it delivery, merit gathering, or denying opponents the same. Powerplay has these situations (hauling, CZ work etc) but in isolation they are poor grind fests. Open would allow these situations to pop up and actually make hauling or carrying merits actually unpredictable and fun, as you have to be on your toes.

 

[GJ51]

Make it part of CQC...

 

[Rubbernuke]

Make it part of CQC...

But its totally different to CQC. CQC is 1:1 balanced arena fights. Powerplay is co-ordinated strategic warfare set across the bubble.

 

[Bard Voronwe]

You see, you are writing a lot but you are basically wrong about at least 2 assumptions.

First of all I'm not a PvPer at all.
Second: I do not think that killing should be a decisive factor, I even suggested not to make it relevant because the risk to be exploited.

I am an Open Player and PvP is part of it, of course you can do a lot to avoid conflict, running away, by cooperation etc.

You keep saying that I can find by myself what I seek from the game but you still miss a point: I'd love to have a game mechanic which measure how good a team is in this kind of environment, Open/Pvt/Solo coexistence makes Open irrelevant and, again, if you claim differently you are intellectualy dishonest about that.

And you can even quote everything that suits you, please keep on, but you still do not want to discuss the main problem: as I said before the Open Play Community has no competitive mechanic, because Open is made irrelevant by pvt/solo. You (and other people) will have the possibility to try this game mechanic or not, exactly as I do not do exploration or mining but I'm happy people can do those.

So again: let's just leave Powerplay to the Openplayers. You can have all the rest of the game.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

The thing is, you don't need to do that. PvP is not just shooting each other, it is any situation between hostiles. Its the act of carrying out your mission be it delivery, merit gathering, or denying opponents the same. Powerplay has these situations (hauling, CZ work etc) but in isolation they are poor grind fests. Open would allow these situations to pop up and actually make hauling or carrying merits actually unpredictable and fun, as you have to be on your toes.

Agree with your main point but one detail for me is that I stopped doing powerplay due to the repetition of hauling stuff. Regardless of whether there are players out there who can (and should be able to) tear my cargo ship apart, I'm still just hauling.

Yes, I could, and probably will eventually, choose a different faction it doesn't seem right that there are 'fun jobs' factions and 'boring jobs' factions. I suppose I just wanted something in game that was more aspirational than being a delivery boy for leaflets.

I'm certainly not arguing against open only, but powerplay could use some more varied tasks as well. I'm not sure what others would think would work but something other than hauling or shooting cargo ships as the main target of gameplay would be nice though.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Agree with your main point but one detail for me is that I stopped doing powerplay due to the repetition of hauling stuff. Regardless of whether there are players out there who can (and should be able to) tear my cargo ship apart, I'm still just hauling.

Yes, I could, and probably will eventually, choose a different faction it doesn't seem right that there are 'fun jobs' factions and 'boring jobs' factions. I suppose I just wanted something in game that was more aspirational than being a delivery boy for leaflets.

I'm certainly not arguing against open only, but powerplay could use some more varied tasks as well. I'm not sure what others would think would work but something other than hauling or shooting cargo ships as the main target of gameplay would be nice though.

I'd love to know if Sandros cryptic hints of PP 'favour' missions will ever be included, as I think that would spice things up.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The thing is, you don't need to do that. PvP is not just shooting each other, it is any situation between hostiles. Its the act of carrying out your mission be it delivery, merit gathering, or denying opponents the same. Powerplay has these situations (hauling, CZ work etc) but in isolation they are poor grind fests. Open would allow these situations to pop up and actually make hauling or carrying merits actually unpredictable and fun, as you have to be on your toes.

Sure, i understand there are some people who enjoy this sort of thing, just as there are a few wierdos who actually enjoy mindless A to B hauling from PG/solo.

Open already allows what you are talking about though. If there are a lack of haulers currently in open, its probably indiciative that those people are not looking for that sort of gameplay, and they are not magically going to switch to open should it become open only. I suspect the haulers who enjoy such play are already in open. So open only isn't likely to change this much. People who are not playing PP who want to haul in open but not because its not open only i would suggest are not on a level comparable with those who prefer to haul in PG/solo.

It doesn't change the fact that someone is going to have to do that A to B hauling though if it does become open only. I do wonder how many of the vocal open only proponents around here are actually wanting to do the hauling.

(yes, before someone posts, i know someone here will say they will, possibly even sincerely)

 

[Bard Voronwe]

Well, I've always hauled in Open Only as everybody in the Kumo Crew, even during the Community Goal in Harma, so...

 

[Agony_Aunt]

You see, you are writing a lot but you are basically wrong about at least 2 assumptions.

First of all I'm not a PvPer at all.
Second: I do not think that killing should be a decisive factor, I even suggested not to make it relevant because the risk to be exploited.

I am an Open Player and PvP is part of it, of course you can do a lot to avoid conflict, running away, by cooperation etc.

You keep saying that I can find by myself what I seek from the game but you still miss a point: I'd love to have a game mechanic which measure how good a team is in this kind of environment, Open/Pvt/Solo coexistence makes Open irrelevant and, again, if you claim differently you are intellectualy dishonest about that.

And you can even quote everything that suits you, please keep on, but you still do not want to discuss the main problem: as I said before the Open Play Community has no competitive mechanic, because Open is made irrelevant by pvt/solo. You (and other people) will have the possibility to try this game mechanic or not, exactly as I do not do exploration or mining but I'm happy people can do those.

So again: let's just leave Powerplay to the Openplayers. You can have all the rest of the game.

You didn't quote anyone, but presume you are talking to me?

Ok, that's fine, you're not a PvPer. I suspected you were, but i know there are some PPers who are in favour of open only who are happy hauling. That's cool.

I disagree on the topic of PG/solo making Open irrelevant. (by the way, having a different opinion to someone != wrong). Everyone is free to fly in the mode they prefer, and if you listen to some of the vocal powerplayer "leaders" all their people are flying in open already. Can't be that irrelevant.

As for quoting, it just helps break things up and address each point directly, but ok, i can reply in bulk

Now, onto your last sentence, how about this. Leave the BGS to the PG/solo players, you can have powerplay. Deal? No? Whyever not? Ok, how about Mining? Can we have mining? Erm.. Community Goals (if they make a return)? Can we get a trade on this?

Ok, here's a deal, maybe you'll like it (and let's pretend for the moment we have some power over this - lol). PP can go open only, BUT, if powerplay is open only it should have zero presence or impact on PG/solo.

By this i mean:

1) No powerplay ships appear in PG/solo (its always annoying when bounty hunting and half the spaws are PP NPCs).
2) The powerplay galactic map does not appear in PG/solo.
3) Powerplay becomes completely disconnected from the BGS. By this i mean the favourable governments part of PP is removed. If PG/solo players can't do PP, then there is no reason PPers should be flipping their systems to make them favourable to them.
4) Power effects on systems are removed. No blackmarkets opening and closing due to the presence of Archon. No discounts in Li Yong's systems. etc.
5) No PP modules in PG/solo, even for those who have the ranks.

Deal?

Well, I've always hauled in Open Only as everybody in the Kumo Crew, even during the Community Goal in Harma, so...

Good for you! I know some others who do as well. I think they enjoy it. I presume you get more enjoyment from the risk of being attacked by players. I presume you get into lots of exciting situations. Perhaps you get blown up sometimes? Or you are a master at escaping?

I would like to know from the people complaining which Player Groups these are that apparently oppose Open Only. As far as I am aware all the Player Groups that do Powerplay are fine with Open Only except for that 'terrorist' 5C one who complained when it was proposed, happy to be corrected.

CMDR Justinian Octavius

Careful! You're one step away from saying any player group that opposes Open Only is a terrorist 5C group.

 

[Arry]

1: Open Only. This AGAIN? This thought has been banded about since day one, of P/P. It will not work. It does not solve the basic issue of; 'my enemy is hiding form me when I want to fight them.' It forces players to play in a way, that a limited number of players, want to play. I could go on and no doubt POOP not happening; is all now my fault, because I am apparently, 'blocking', 'refusing' such a request to happen. Even though my imput has nothing to do the actions and decisions F.D. make.
2: Once a system reaches the fortification trigger, no more garrison supplies can be delivered to that system until the next PP cycle. Now this is a good idea. The laziness of pledges, has had no bounds and the over fortification has been a thing since day one. So this is worth a good look at, by F.D.
3: When pledged, player gets locked into that PP character for one month. No defection possible, and leaving cost 100 million credits. Nope: Just the kind of over the top desire, we have come to expect, from the POOP brigade.

It's easy to spot the 'grind for merits' in action. All of the systems close to the PP HQ get fortified way beyond the trigger on the first day of a new cycle.
Systems further away are often not fortified to 100% several days after the new cycle.

Agreed. The closer systems have always been the easy solution, for the lazy player, just there for the goodies. They want, then they should contribute, in a meaningful manner, towards the cause.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

Sure, i understand there are some people who enjoy this sort of thing, just as there are a few wierdos who actually enjoy mindless A to B hauling from PG/solo.

Potentially due to this being the only way to feel like you're having a wider impact on the bubble. I wonder if these players would drop powerplay anyway if something like the navy rank progression system was improved. Could be a way forward, especially if navy missions are focused on defending systems from thargoids or fixing stations (for example) to give PvE players something to do which and leaves bgs/powerplay alone