Powerplay Powerplay Solo/Private Exploit Problem

[Arkadi]

They chose to create a game that does not require players to engage in PvP.

Maybe that's why people who chose to pvp just go about doing random attacks at CG's and Erevate (mostly this will be called grieving) - becouse there is missing pvp content.

However. The game still has it's qualities. But it's strength sure is not in multiplayer in it's current form, becouse all discussion above.

Powerplay could easyly fulfill this mulitplayer content, I think. But since you say Frontier does not think so... a missed opportunity in my eyes. That's why I keep responding to this threads.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Maybe that's why people who chose to pvp just go about doing random attacks at CG's and Erevate (mostly this will be called grieving) - becouse there is missing pvp content.

The usual offered definition of PvP content is content that is unavailable in Solo / Private Groups (in this game, anyway).

However. The game still has it's qualities. But it's strength sure is not in multiplayer in it's current form, becouse all discussion above.

Multi-player != PvP (well, not necessarily, anyway). It would seem that this game, that some refer to as an MMO, is atypical for an MMO in that it does not offer a discrete PvE mode.

Powerplay could easyly fulfill this mulitplayer content. But since you say Frontier does not think so... a missed opportunity in my eyes. That's why I keep responding to this threads.

Frontier rather obviously chose not to restrict PowerPlay to Open - that's been the case for over two and a half years now.

 

[oscarolim]

I have noticed an issue/exploit in the Powerplay mechanics of the game. Players can use solo/private mode to undermine expansion and fortification efforts without the victim factions being able to retaliate. This leads to the attacking faction being able to camp nav beacons and combat zones and farm merits without any sort of real opposition. Please make it to where Powerplay actions can only be performed in open play as Powerplay is a multiplayer mechanic and should be treated as such.

And then, with the game being p2p, just block all IPs from whoever is in your instance, and you're back into "solo" while in open, and I don't see FDev re-writing the netcode any time soon (it would be a daunting task).

 

[withnail]

The open only argument isn't about PvP.

Anyone half decent doesn't need to fight.

It's about competition on a level playing field. Unfortunately, those bringing up the PvP thing don't play Powerplay and have no idea what they are talking about.

 

[Stigbob]

I really don't wonder why that is the case.

If Frontier does not create content for PvP gameplay this is really no surprise.

CQC is dedicated to the sort of pure PVP people keep demanding, yet "PVP'ers" supposedly detest it. If you were FDEV after that would you bother with any pure PVP content again for players you know are just a vocal minority ?.

Still it wasn't a total loss, I like my CQC spinoff SLF.

 

[Robert Maynard]

The open only argument isn't about PvP.

For some, maybe - certainly not for others.

It's about competition on a level playing field. Unfortunately, those bringing up the PvP thing don't play Powerplay and have no idea what they are talking about.

If the playing field is considered to not be level then, by inference, it must be the lack of the ability to directly oppose players (i.e. direct PvP) that creates the inequality - therefore it *is* about PvP.

 

[Maka Gucci]

I love PP, and I love PvP. I think a PvPer said it well when they called PP, PvEvP.

 

[Rubbernuke]

PP with multi-modes is like having two football teams play each other on separate pitches- instead of trying to defend and attack directly it becomes a case of scoring goals unopposed as fast as you can, with the highest goal count 'winning'.

[/url]via Imgflip Meme Generator[/IMG]

 

[withnail]

For some, maybe - certainly not for others.



If the playing field is considered to not be level then, by inference, it must be the lack of the ability to directly oppose players (i.e. direct PvP) that creates the inequality - therefore it *is* about PvP.

I reiterate my offer to give you some lessons and practice in open only Powerplay. You'll get protection and as much assistance as you need.

I'm doing this because you have no idea what you are talking about, particularly as you have never participated in serious organised Powerplay.

So, join us for a week or two and then what you are saying might actually carry some weight.

 

[Memau]

That Frontier chose to not to reduce the effects of players in Solo / Private Groups, in comparison to players in Open, might be quite telling - especially given Frontier's repeated statements regarding their position that all game modes are equal and valid choices.

They know that some players disagree with their decisions.

One Dev has acknowledged that Frontier are well aware that the majority of players don't get involved in PvP.

Sandro mused about an Open play bonus for PowerPlay (for the Power, not the player, and only for PowerPlay, not for anything else) in March'16 - then confirmed in December'16 that nothing was planned in that regard.

We'll see what, if anything, Frontier chooses to do in relation to PowerPlay - in due time.

FDev haven't balanced the risks/rewards of open/private group/solo yet. Does that mean they shouldn't review it now? Or ever? Of course they should. Why have they not done it yet? Possibly because it needs discussions such as this to highlight to Fdev that there is an issue? They would then need time in their schedules to discuss it internally, get more community feedback, allow time to actually work on the changes, test the changes, and finally implement them. Wing missions have only just made it into the game after how long, it's a slow process. Just because it hasn't been done yet, that doesn't mean it shouldn't or won't be done or that there isn't a need for it to be done. It might not affect everyone, but certainly has an enormous impact on others. So if an issue affects 0.1/1/10% of the players and hasn't been the top priority for reasons, does that mean it can be swept under the carpet and forgotten? Of course not.

All modes are equal, except they are not. They are different. You can never get a wing with another player in solo, but also can never be attacked by one. In a private group with friends you can be in a wing but also have 0 risk of people attacking you. In open you can form wings and can be attacked and the choice of who is there with you is mostly out of your hands (yes there is blocking but that is for another discussion, not here). Fact. The question is how do Fdev balance that in terms of rewards. All modes are equally valid choices, but each choice should have consequences based on the advantages/disadvantages and risks/rewards to make all modes truly equal.

It seems it's about time for Fdev to review the balances for each mode in light of all the new content they have introduced. That review/balancing does not force anyone to PvP or not PvP; play one mode or another, but gives players real choices whilst maintaining a level playing field for everyone across all modes. People can then make an informed choice based on these consequences. Some will care, some won't and everyone will continue playing the game how they want to play.

 

[Jockey79]

I reiterate my offer to give you some lessons and practice in open only Powerplay. You'll get protection and as much assistance as you need.

I'm doing this because you have no idea what you are talking about, particularly as you have never participated in serious organised Powerplay.

So, join us for a week or two and then what you are saying might actually carry some weight.

I love how you have to resort to name calling (aka : don't know what you're talking about) because he does know exactly how PP works and it was designed for consensual PvP - not forced PvP that you want.

[video=youtube_share;nvMYy0ry9mA]https://youtu.be/nvMYy0ry9mA[/video]

 

[Mephane]

Could we please stop calling everything an exploit just because it goes beyond our personal private interpretation of some specific game mechanic?

All modes are equal, except they are not. They are different. You can never get a wing with another player in solo, but also can never be attacked by one. In a private group with friends you can be in a wing but also have 0 risk of people attacking you. In open you can form wings and can be attacked and the choice of who is there with you is mostly out of your hands (yes there is blocking but that is for another discussion, not here). Fact. The question is how do Fdev balance that in terms of rewards. All modes are equally valid choices, but each choice should have consequences based on the advantages/disadvantages and risks/rewards to make all modes truly equal.

It seems it's about time for Fdev to review the balances for each mode in light of all the new content they have introduced. That review/balancing does not force anyone to PvP or not PvP; play one mode or another, but gives players real choices whilst maintaining a level playing field for everyone across all modes. People can then make an informed choice based on these consequences. Some will care, some won't and everyone will continue playing the game how they want to play.

Ah this again. All these ideas to "rebalance" between the modes ever boil down to either buffing open play by improving the speed of some particular type of grind (e.g. credits, influence, power play) or nerfing it in the other modes. People always talk about buffing open, so they appear generous towards open players instead of jealous towards solo players, but in the end both are the same, because what they mean is that players in open would morally deserve to get more. The problem lies with that very idea that by playing in open, you deserve more. I can very well spend entire days in open without ever meeting another player, and I am not talking about exploration. The bubble is huge and there's plenty of quiet places where one could e.g. grind credits almost totally safe from PvP, do I also deserve a bonus if I only fly around there, just because I clicked a different button in the main menu?

It gets better when one considers that one can just locally disable P2P, and thus only ever get into instances that while technically connected to the servers in open play, are always empty and effectively private...

 

[Robert Maynard]

FDev haven't balanced the risks/rewards of open/private group/solo yet. Does that mean they shouldn't review it now? Or ever? Of course they should. Why have they not done it yet? Possibly because it needs discussions such as this to highlight to Fdev that there is an issue? They would then need time in their schedules to discuss it internally, get more community feedback, allow time to actually work on the changes, test the changes, and finally implement them. Wing missions have only just made it into the game after how long, it's a slow process. Just because it hasn't been done yet, that doesn't mean it shouldn't or won't be done or that there isn't a need for it to be done. It might not affect everyone, but certainly has an enormous impact on others. So if an issue affects 0.1/1/10% of the players and hasn't been the top priority for reasons, does that mean it can be swept under the carpet and forgotten? Of course not.

All modes are equal, except they are not. They are different. You can never get a wing with another player in solo, but also can never be attacked by one. In a private group with friends you can be in a wing but also have 0 risk of people attacking you. In open you can form wings and can be attacked and the choice of who is there with you is mostly out of your hands (yes there is blocking but that is for another discussion, not here). Fact. The question is how do Fdev balance that in terms of rewards. All modes are equally valid choices, but each choice should have consequences based on the advantages/disadvantages and risks/rewards to make all modes truly equal.

It seems it's about time for Fdev to review the balances for each mode in light of all the new content they have introduced. That review/balancing does not force anyone to PvP or not PvP; play one mode or another, but gives players real choices whilst maintaining a level playing field for everyone across all modes. People can then make an informed choice based on these consequences. Some will care, some won't and everyone will continue playing the game how they want to play.

With regard to risk, Frontier would seem to be well aware that simply increasing the challenge posed by NPCs is unlikely to be well received. Plus the fact that some players would seem to be so skilled in combat that NPCs pose little or no risk to them - and Frontier cannot design the game around them, more likely around the median skill player (as, by definition, half of players are at or above median skill and half are at or below median skill).

Encountered risk is the issue here - and any interaction that is assumed to be combative can also be gamed by players who collude to achieve an outcome. Therefore any bonus given due to added risk posed by players can be gamed.

A blanket bonus "just for playing in Open" would be ill applied, in my opinion, as the vast majority of Open poses exactly the same risk as Solo, to the single player.

That players can choose to outfit and Engineer their ships to reduce risk would also need to be taken into account, i.e. a player in a meta-combat-Vette has much less risk of destruction than a player in an unshielded stock Sidewinder.

Interestingly, Sandro's musings on an Open play bonus for PowerPlay took place in a thread where the other main topic was Collusion Piracy (in relation to PowerPlay) - so he's well aware that players can (and will) collude to get rewards that are aimed at a confrontational interaction unopposed.

At that time Sandro also said that he was not in favour of applying any such bonus to any other aspect of the game.

 

[Memau]

With regard to risk, Frontier would seem to be well aware that simply increasing the challenge posed by NPCs is unlikely to be well received. Plus the fact that some players would seem to be so skilled in combat that NPCs pose little or no risk to them - and Frontier cannot design the game around them, more likely around the median skill player (as, by definition, half of players are at or above median skill and half are at or below median skill).

Encountered risk is the issue here - and any interaction that is assumed to be combative can also be gamed by players who collude to achieve an outcome. Therefore any bonus given due to added risk posed by players can be gamed.

A blanket bonus "just for playing in Open" would be ill applied, in my opinion, as the vast majority of Open poses exactly the same risk as Solo, to the single player.

That players can choose to outfit and Engineer their ships to reduce risk would also need to be taken into account, i.e. a player in a meta-combat-Vette has much less risk of destruction than a player in an unshielded stock Sidewinder.

Interestingly, Sandro's musings on an Open play bonus for PowerPlay took place in a thread where the other main topic was Collusion Piracy (in relation to PowerPlay) - so he's well aware that players can (and will) collude to get rewards that are aimed at a confrontational interaction unopposed.

At that time Sandro also said that he was not in favour of applying any such bonus to any other aspect of the game.

Your first point about NPCs is irrelevant to increasing rewards for playing in open. This isn't a discussion about NPC difficulty, or perhaps you have misunderstood one of my points.

Encountered risk? I think you mean encountered hazard there, and a hazard is not the same as a risk. A risk is the possibility of harm, a hazard is the thing that causes you harm. To clarify, in this case the risk is being in open (possibility to encounter hostile players), and the hazard is a hostile player. Whether the hazard is encountered is irrelevent to basic risk assessment, where precautions are taken and bonuses rewarded because you are exposed to additional risk, not just compensated when you encounter a hazard. It's comparable to some jobs having inceased pay as a reward because of the increased dangers involved. Solo and open are not the same because the risk is different by design. A blanket bonus would, therefore, be appropriate by accounting for risk.

You could also apply that same risk reward to mission. So if you're doing an assassination contract in a corvette you get a lower pay than a sidewinder. That could be interesting to gameplay, unless you assume the NPC is basing the reward on your skill/reputation as a pilot such as through combat rank. That would certainly make things interesting, but is very different reducing the risk to completely removing the risk by mode. A very good idea though.

The collusion piracy changes as you point out have indeed been implemented in game, so we can see what the future will bring.

 

[Memau]

Could we please stop calling everything an exploit just because it goes beyond our personal private interpretation of some specific game mechanic?



Ah this again. All these ideas to "rebalance" between the modes ever boil down to either buffing open play by improving the speed of some particular type of grind (e.g. credits, influence, power play) or nerfing it in the other modes. People always talk about buffing open, so they appear generous towards open players instead of jealous towards solo players, but in the end both are the same, because what they mean is that players in open would morally deserve to get more. The problem lies with that very idea that by playing in open, you deserve more. I can very well spend entire days in open without ever meeting another player, and I am not talking about exploration. The bubble is huge and there's plenty of quiet places where one could e.g. grind credits almost totally safe from PvP, do I also deserve a bonus if I only fly around there, just because I clicked a different button in the main menu?

It gets better when one considers that one can just locally disable P2P, and thus only ever get into instances that while technically connected to the servers in open play, are always empty and effectively private...

It is not about deserving more or less, it is about the relative risk you take on by conducting PowerPlay related activities in the different game modes. You can spend a lot of time not actually meeting another player in open, but the beauty of PowerPlay is it creates situations where you certainly should be meeting other players. Like a Power HQ, a system that is part of a prep war, a system being fortified, a system being undermined. The bubble may be huge but for PowerPlay the activities are often focus in hotspots. Being able to avoid the entire risk of them and reap the full reward is damaging PowerPlay and its communities. Do people deserve to fight invisible ghosts in a competitive team-based part of the game, and how do you address it?

 

[GoStu]

CQC is dedicated to the sort of pure PVP people keep demanding, yet "PVP'ers" supposedly detest it. If you were FDEV after that would you bother with any pure PVP content again for players you know are just a vocal minority ?.

Still it wasn't a total loss, I like my CQC spinoff SLF.

PvP pilots dislike CQC because it’s utterly disconnected from your main ships and progress, uses only some of the skills that PvP in the main game requires, and has very little diversity and nothing interesting at stake.

——

I’d like to addesss the argument “Frontier made it that way in 1.3 therefore...”

It’s a terrible one. Think of all the various tweaks and balances that have been implemented over time to existing content, including Powerplay itself. To argue that “it was implemented that way deliberately in 1.3 therefore it should remain that way forever” is crazy. Game features go live and then get tweaked in response to how things handle and play all the damn time, and mistakes inarguably get made; look at the cull of skimmer and mining missions TODAY alone.

I have a hard time respecting the opinions of someone (anyone!) who has not been seriously involved in Powerplay at some point or another, and I don’t just mean “earned a few merits and quit”. The entire Powerplay gameplay is so complex that I don’t think anyone outside it and its communities truly has any idea what’s going on or how things impact it.

If you’ve never watched your power’s #1 Prep get forced to something bad, flown interdiction to cover your power’s haulers, or gone looking to Oppose only to have ghosts evade you... well, politely, I think you should butt out. You lack the experience to meaningfully comment on Powerplay.

 

[aspiringexpatriate]

I’d like to addesss the argument “Frontier made it that way in 1.3 therefore...”

It’s a terrible one. Think of all the various tweaks and balances that have been implemented over time to existing content, including Powerplay itself. To argue that “it was implemented that way deliberately in 1.3 therefore it should remain that way forever” is crazy. Game features go live and then get tweaked in response to how things handle and play all the damn time, and mistakes inarguably get made; look at the cull of skimmer and mining missions TODAY alone.

If the argument simply posits that 'FDev didn't do it then, and FDev won't ever change it,' then, yes, it is a flawed argument. If the stance is 'FDev hasn't changed it yet, so yelling at people who don't follow 'community rules' is needlessly antagonistic unless FDev gets involved in the discussion again,' then that argument can hold some merit.

GoStu, I've never seen you be needlessly antagonistic in these discussions until the end of that post, so I'm not directly replying to you, specifically, just the general toxicity of the 'Open Only' debate.

---

Reading this thread off and on over the past month has given me some ideas, and exposed me to some of the arguments against 'Open Only' for Power Play that rely on the problems with Open Mode in general. I like to think I came up with a few good ideas, but no one ever responded to the thread, so I'll never be able to workshop them.

While Power Play is Elite's 'consensual PvP flag', it also heavily relies upon indirect team PvP, complete with the ability to cancel the other team's moves. There are few rewards for direct PvP, but post-3.0, minimal risks for direct PvP in PowerPlay compared to the rest of the galaxy.

While FDev has become notorious for removing credit-earning bonanzas, they rarely remove gameplay opportunities, and they've never broken their pre-launch promise of Solo and Open being the same gameplay. So it is unlikely that FDev will remove Power Play contributions from Solo and Private Group, because that will strip those participants of the ability to play on a team and support their Power.

Veteran Power Players want Open Mode confrontations to matter, to make a stronger impact on Power Play statistics than someone hauling for their team in a different dimension, and most importantly we want to encourage our team members to participate in Open with us, so we can fly in wings and have more fun.

With 3.0, Power Play activies and Power Bounties are entirely separate from the Crime and Punishment system. We are literally dueling it out under a separate law. Let us encourage FDev to use this separate law to figure out the best way to encourage Open Mode PvP.

• Don't punish anyone who doesn't use Open Mode.
• Don't reward Open Mode, but reward for surviving hostile PvP encounters.
• Increase the Power bounties incurred when PvP is asymmetrical, and reduce the monetary consequences when a victim of asymmetrical Power Play PvP.

You can justify these changes because the Powers can reimburse or reward CMDRs who lose ships in service of their cause.

Rather than spewing vitriol across the game modes, let's encourage FDev to work with us to devise a better system to encourage CMDRs to participate in Power Play in Open Mode.

 

[withnail]

We could have all of these discussions if this discussion wasn't steamrollered by repetitive quotes from Frontier and Sandro.

If Maynard stopped beating his drum we might get on to it. At the moment he's not adding anything constructive.

And I think GoStu is quite in rights to say what he said. No point in tip toeing around and getting drowned out by spammed quotes.

 

[withnail]

I love how you have to resort to name calling (aka : don't know what you're talking about) because he does know exactly how PP works and it was designed for consensual PvP - not forced PvP that you want.

https://youtu.be/nvMYy0ry9mA

I'm afraid you have got confused by this thread too. I want balance between open and PG in particular, not PVP.

We have problems with bots and afk turret boats which can't be countered.

If we could move away from the shock horror of open/solo discussions we could get round to this.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I'm afraid you have got confused by this thread too. I want balance between open and PG in particular, not PVP.

We have problems with bots and afk turret boats which can't be countered.

If it's truly not about PvP (or lack thereof Solo and probably in Private Groups too) then there would seem to be a need for an NPC solution to players with AFK turret boats, regardless of game mode.

Suspicion of botting should be reported - as that would be contrary to the EULA.