problems with permaboost [video]
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He's got a good point. Before engineers boosting was used much more tactically. Nowadays every ship in the game can go perma boost after being engineered. It does sort of ruin the point of balancing ships around their agility ratings since perma boosting can even the playing field between two ships so much so as to make their disparity in agility ratings pretty neglible.
In a way it makes the game feel like we're all flying the same ship.
In a way it makes the game feel like we're all flying the same ship.
You can perma boost with a G5 charge enhanced distributor mod, but pip management is generally needed - you will need 3 or 4 pips in ENG a lot of the time to keep it at the threshold needed to boost. This means removing pips from elsewhere e.g. SYS, so there is some micro-management needed. Unless you are running a hull tank build where 0-3-3 or 0-4-2 will allow constant boosting.
Fully engineered ships are the baseline to work from. That's why. Anyone worth a damn in combat will have engineered at least part of their ship.
Yes, I was just watching it, yesterday. Agreed completely.
a well constructed argument that merits some comments, because it has some flaws:
- it exaggerates the benefit of boost. yes, it's great, and yes, you can permaboost, but you still do so at the expense of diverting power to engines. saying a fdl can spend 30% of time boosting with 3 pips in eng sounds great, but it kind of tries to minimize the fact that leaving only 2 pips for shields and weapons is still a big compromise.
- the fact that engineers has completely washed away the ships' natural character is sadly very true, and i have stated so myself often here. it doesn't affect only boost, though, but it's just power creep across the board, including shields, firepower, power and heat management and armour as for late. sadly enough i see no easy way back from this. but it's also not just engineers, repeated balance 'adjustmens' regarding shield (and scb) and weapons have steadily been eroding ship compromises long before engineers hit. engineers just raised the global bar and made all ships more equal.
- the current maneuverability of the fdl of course owes a lot to enhanced distros and thrusters, and to earlier buffs, but has always been there, right from the start. the buff was unnecesary, but it was demanded by the crowd. and that is the elephant in the room.
so, put this way, i see these arguments as half thruths thrown together in a cause to buff the chieftain. which i don't mind the least! i have not much interest in that ship, but go ahead and buff it. it will not change much in the way more grim reality which has been affecting all ships, steadily, right from the start.
where will this madness end?
- it exaggerates the benefit of boost. yes, it's great, and yes, you can permaboost, but you still do so at the expense of diverting power to engines. saying a fdl can spend 30% of time boosting with 3 pips in eng sounds great, but it kind of tries to minimize the fact that leaving only 2 pips for shields and weapons is still a big compromise.
- the fact that engineers has completely washed away the ships' natural character is sadly very true, and i have stated so myself often here. it doesn't affect only boost, though, but it's just power creep across the board, including shields, firepower, power and heat management and armour as for late. sadly enough i see no easy way back from this. but it's also not just engineers, repeated balance 'adjustmens' regarding shield (and scb) and weapons have steadily been eroding ship compromises long before engineers hit. engineers just raised the global bar and made all ships more equal.
- the current maneuverability of the fdl of course owes a lot to enhanced distros and thrusters, and to earlier buffs, but has always been there, right from the start. the buff was unnecesary, but it was demanded by the crowd. and that is the elephant in the room.
so, put this way, i see these arguments as half thruths thrown together in a cause to buff the chieftain. which i don't mind the least! i have not much interest in that ship, but go ahead and buff it. it will not change much in the way more grim reality which has been affecting all ships, steadily, right from the start.
where will this madness end?
tbh, not that pvp has ever been a big thing in elite dangerous. early days were fun, and there's still some fun to be had, but it just never worked out quite right.
Good pip management was always needed guys. Pre-engineers using boost in a fight for a tactical advantage always required pip management. Remember that before G5 charge enhanced distros even a single boost cost you almost half your energy capacity. You still needed at least 3 pips to ENG back then to use a boost and have it recharge enough to have it ready when needed. The difference is that now you can get perma-boost for the exact same proficiency of pip management as before. Engineers simply raised the performance parameters of the ship, they didn't increase the skill demanded of the pilot.
I never said it wasn't needed, I said if you can do it efficiently enough to still minimize incoming damage and fire your high draw weapons when you need them, then you deserve to reap the rewards of that. I believe it raises the skill cap. Don't get me wrong, I'm not adverse to less boosting to make combat more interesting and less of a high speed orbit fest .
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Great video, and it makes excellent points with a good and well-reasoned argument. I'm in agreement, something needs to be done to look at perma-boosts.
(and I pip-manage well enough to perma-boost myself, which I do plenty in combat)
(and I pip-manage well enough to perma-boost myself, which I do plenty in combat)
I think my list is empty... I quite like engineering. I find it relaxing.
I lost PvP before engineering.
I still lose PvP after engineering.
Yes, exactly. An engineered distro isn't a free meal ticket to endless boost and infinite firepower while keeping 4 pips to SYS. It does raise the bar as to what you can get out of a ship - if you have the skill to juggle your pips effectively while under intense fire.
While I think non-boot agility still matters, and I successfully flew a close range FDL brawler long before engineers, I do agree that something has been lost with the amount of boosting that now typically occurs in combat. It was even worse a few patches ago, before they fixed the mistakenly large ENG recharge rate.
My preferred solution would be to reduce the magnitude at which boosting improves rotationals (except perhaps on thrust vectored ships, like the Cobra, Keelback, and Chieftan) and non-forward translational movement, while putting a floor on the minimum forward boost provided. This will keep boost viable for opening or closing distance, but would keep it from being a combat mainstay as it's other advantages would be mitigated.
Plenty of other possibilities as well...boost cost could increase with thruster multiplier, for example.
This is pretty much a given except in the laziest sort of combat against foes that aren't really a threat.
Pips are meant to be moved around, and pip management should never, ever, have been seen as an optional component of combat. The fact that massive distributor recharge rates often do reduce the need for pip management is a big part of the problem.
My preferred solution would be to reduce the magnitude at which boosting improves rotationals (except perhaps on thrust vectored ships, like the Cobra, Keelback, and Chieftan) and non-forward translational movement, while putting a floor on the minimum forward boost provided. This will keep boost viable for opening or closing distance, but would keep it from being a combat mainstay as it's other advantages would be mitigated.
Plenty of other possibilities as well...boost cost could increase with thruster multiplier, for example.
This is pretty much a given except in the laziest sort of combat against foes that aren't really a threat.
Pips are meant to be moved around, and pip management should never, ever, have been seen as an optional component of combat. The fact that massive distributor recharge rates often do reduce the need for pip management is a big part of the problem.
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pip management is part of the little skill there still is involved (as compared to the ability to grind for hours and follow inara.cz), but that's a different topic imo.
skill is totally offtopic here, the argument in the video is clearly talking from a statistical point, i.e. about the ships, not the pilots.
where are the darn moderators when you need one??
Totally in disagreement, the problem that the creator of the video exposes is that the ships after being engineered are capable of permaboost?
Well, in a match of 2 equal 1 vs 1, i assure you that you have at least 5 methods to avoid the opponent's permaboost, and in the worst case you can do the same, you can also create a ship that can permaboost ... (Doing the same i admit its not to develop a tactic)
What is the problem? that a ship after going through the engineers can permaboost? There are ships that can take away the heat themselves after passing through engineers ... That you call to not to have tactical game? or is it that you do not know how to develop it? because i guarantee you that if you want to prevent that from happening, you can prevent that with a good STRATEGY and the correct modules. I guarantee you. Force Shells? Drag Munitions? Ion Disruptors? Did people forgot that we can use Mines? or we can also make enemies sensors to stop working?? Tactics!!!
Well, in a match of 2 equal 1 vs 1, i assure you that you have at least 5 methods to avoid the opponent's permaboost, and in the worst case you can do the same, you can also create a ship that can permaboost ... (Doing the same i admit its not to develop a tactic)
What is the problem? that a ship after going through the engineers can permaboost? There are ships that can take away the heat themselves after passing through engineers ... That you call to not to have tactical game? or is it that you do not know how to develop it? because i guarantee you that if you want to prevent that from happening, you can prevent that with a good STRATEGY and the correct modules. I guarantee you. Force Shells? Drag Munitions? Ion Disruptors? Did people forgot that we can use Mines? or we can also make enemies sensors to stop working?? Tactics!!!