Proposal: alternative to outright removal of ADS instascan & system map minigame for explorers

[CMDR timjt]

great idea, i wish to change the estimate data part


Mass:0.5-1.5 Eaeth mass
Rotation: 0.5 Day
Distance to parent star: 500-600ls
Surface pressure: 0.3-0.5kPa
Atmosphere type: Argon rich
Radius: 2500km-3500km

Coposit:
Ice 0%-10%
Rock 50%-90%
Metal 10%-50%
Gas 0%-10%

These data is what we can get in real-life early-21-century-tec telescopes many light years away from earth, a future-tec space ship scanner within the system should be more than capable of doing the same

 

[Highlander71]

It's worth remembering that there are a number of different subsets of explorers as StuartGT pointed out.

a) Scanning for credits in the most efficient manner (i.e. Road to riches).

The new system will likely dramatically change this.​

b) Completing each system map with detailed surface scan, before moving on.

The new system will likely slow this down. Flying up close to planets to use probes will still be required, and will almost certainly take more time than the current surface scan.​

c) Searching for interesting sights and unique locations.
This form of exploration will be seriously negatively affected. Currently, it's possible to find an interesting planet based upon the image obtained from the initial honk. This will no longer be possible.

There are likely other forms of exploration that I haven't covered.

The proposal in the original post, will help a) and c) - but it won't help with b). That said, it also won't hinder b) in anyway.

As far as I can see - there's no drawbacks to what Stuart suggests. The current exploration mechanics need to change, but it would be nice to retain certain functionality, whilst still gaining new gameplay. The ideas shown here, really do help with that!

I'm worried about those cases where the discovery scanner is used for anything NOT related to exploration, like finding mission targets. This mechanic should remain unchanged with the introduction of the new Exploration changes.

 

[babelfisch]

Yeah, I think this is overdoing it a bit (as usual). Having to shoot probes everywhere just to see there's nothing worth visiting is a pain.

Sorry but it seems like you didn't understand the proposal. You don't need probes to find out that there is interesting stuff on the planet, this already gets handled during the normal scan phase with the ADS. You will then be notified if there are POIs like ruins or brain trees and only then you are going to use probes to find their exact location.

This is like 1000 times better than the current implementation.


"Importantly, when you uncover a planet using the discovery scanner, as well as being informed of the resources available on it, the presence of unusual locations, such as Guardian sites, will also be revealed. However, their precise location won’t be shown until you have mapped the planet with the detailed surface scanner."

 

[EUS]

What exploration is missing, is interesting activities that occur after your knowledge of the system is known.
Some mission, some type of contact, log a passing meteor. Oh look, a distress signal from the planet surface, a lost ship is transmitting, a star is about to go nova.
Something should happen once in a while that makes you want to go to the planet, or hang out in the system for an extended time.

But what are we given after all this time? A stinkin' bolt on screen mini-game that must be played to allow us to see that there are actually planets in the system. And longer living USSsss.
It's a bad joke.

 

[Highlander71]

I would like to state that I spend months far away from the bubble honking systems to determine whether it's just a bunch of rocks, or the system has water worlds or earth like worlds which I scan. I do this to eventually earn credits. I love this style of spending time in Elite. I've seen many, many systems in the galaxy and I call that exploration.

 

[babelfisch]

What exploration is missing, is interesting activities that occur after your knowledge of the system is known.
Some mission, some type of contact, log a passing meteor. Oh look, a distress signal from the planet surface, a lost ship is transmitting, a star is about to go nova.
Something should happen once in a while that makes you want to go to the planet, or hang out in the system for an extended time.

But what are we given after all this time? A stinkin' bolt on screen mini-game that must be played to allow us to see that there are actually planets in the system. And longer living USSsss.
It's a bad joke.

It seems like the new planetary POI system is going to address that problem. See my post above.

 

[Skip Rockbounder]

There are a fair few long-time explorers vocally expressing their disappointment of the planned removal of the Advanced Discovery Scanner's blanket instascan, thereby removing their ability to immediately determine whether a system held any personally-interesting formations/sights. Currently they would use this to either further investigate and explore closer, or skip on to the next star system.

After arrival in a new star system, what many of those explorers seek is quick high-level information on the planetary bodies:

• The number and layout of planetary bodies
• Distances between them
• Their types, i.e. rare (ELW, WW, HMC) or common (ice, rocky)
• Whether ringed or not

Back during Beta 2.2 this was introduced to mostly negative feedback:



I propose this is re-introduced, with the system map populated with a full-layout of black, hollow circles, following a honk of the revamped Discovery Scanner. As this was a feature previously introduced for Beta 2.2, I guess it can be re-introduced without requiring much in the way of development resources (compared to a new feature).

As the Discovery Scanner can pinpoint the location of frequency signals, it is feasible to assume it can determine how many separate signals, their layout, distances between them, and whether they're are ringed or not. And then generate a "low fidelity", visual representation of the detected frequencies.

Further information could be provided in the system map's sidebar, displaying the approximate breakdown of the system's planetary bodies.

Here is my very bad mspaint draft based on the above image:



The percentages of the Estimated Breakdown would be very loosely based on the pre-determined data in the Stellar Forge. The goal being to hint that an interesting, high-value world will exist there. If the makeup of a pre-determined system is 3 ELWs among a total of 8 bodies (including main star), then the Earth-Likes percentage range would be relatively high, e.g. 10-40% (indicating between 1 and 3 ELWs exist in the system).

Selecting an unscanned world (black, hollow circle) on the system map will give only four pieces of information:

• Ringed or not
• Distance to parent star
• Distance to parent/partner world where appropriate (a moon, or member of binary system)
• Approximated size and/or mass

As worlds are scanned using the planned new mechanics, each respective object in the system map will be resolved, and their details becoming accessible in the system map's sidebar. The estimated breakdown could change too (this feature could be implemented at a later date) as worlds are scanned and identified.

One possible future extension of the above mechanics could be for CMDRs who choose not to equip a Discovery Scanner at all: the system map could gradually populate with black, hollow circles, as the CMDR's ship comes within visual range of the respective planetary bodies.

Another future addition could be the highlighting on the system map the area of the habitable zone for each star, once it has been respectively scanned of course. This could further assist explorers in "scientifically" determining whether a star system could support life (via an Earth Like world for example).

Me along with others have often wondered why this system wasn't used from game release, it makes sense and removes 'to a large extent' the ability to cherrypick, (which is the best part of the proposal not the 'MSPaint' rings)

I'm wondering though if ED isn't setting us all up for a bomb drop of an Orrery... now wouldn't that be nice

 

[Maolagin]

These data is what we can get in real-life early-21-century-tec telescopes many light years away from earth, a future-tec space ship scanner within the system should be more than capable of doing the same

In general, whatever you think is the right balance for the discovery scanner mechanic, "surely a future-tech scanner can reveal X" is not going to be a very compelling argument. We literally have a future-tech scanner that does those things now, and all the developers are doing is adding more functions and changing up the user interface. By every metric except "time to operate" the new scanner will be more capable.

 

[EUS]

It seems like the new planetary POI system is going to address that problem. See my post above.

How have those POIs been working out for you so far?
Are they entertaining?
To me, they're brainless, uninspired nothings.
Tea and crashed satellites that offer no extra gameplay.
Q4 as explained so far? I'm just not feeling it.
But seeing all the accolades to date, it must be me.

 

[babelfisch]

How have those POIs been working out for you so far?
Are they entertaining?
To me, they're brainless, uninspired nothings.
Tea and crashed satellites that offer no extra gameplay.
Q4 as explained so far? I'm just not feeling it.
But seeing all the accolades to date, it must be me.

I think exploring the galaxy and suddenly finding ruins of a long gone alien species or living lifeforms is pretty cool and exactly what exploration should be about. If we can do so by using game mechanics rather than eyeballing it's even better. The overhaul definitely seems like an improvement to me. And most importantly it finally gives them the framework to add even more stuff.

 

[Insane4un]

How about we wait for pre beta first?

 

[EUS]

I think exploring the galaxy and suddenly finding ruins of a long gone alien species or living lifeforms is pretty cool and exactly what exploration should be about. If we can do so by using game mechanics rather than eyeballing it's even better. The overhaul definitely seems like an improvement to me. And most importantly it finally gives them the framework to add even more stuff.

I suppose I thought this exploration update would be more than a framework patch, it would be the huge overhaul we've been waiting 4 years for, and would bring exploration to a point where it would stand on it's own until the next round of core gameplay improvements were needed.
Again, it's all personal POV. Some are happy, I see it as very limited in scope.

 

[babelfisch]

I suppose I thought this exploration update would be more than a framework patch, it would be the huge overhaul we've been waiting 4 years for, and would bring exploration to a point where it would stand on it's own until the next round of core gameplay improvements were needed.
Again, it's all personal POV. Some are happy, I see it as very limited in scope.

Let's just hope that they were serious when they said this isn't all they are going to add to exploration. Personally I am not bothered either way, I am easily satisfied. Just give me a beer and some stars to look at and I am happy.

 

[Kestril]

I disagree with the assertion that the information won't be available with Fdev's changes. It will be available--just in a different form that requires some interpretation.

I'm fine with the Fdev's proposed exploration mechanics. It more-or-less matches what was suggested way long ago with the "cold-waters" like mechanics. I think people are overlooking that the patterns of ELW and such on the scanner will be identifiable once you know the pattern, like the SRV scanner. It makes for a bit of a higher skill floor, but more satisfying gameplay.

Lets give Fdev's changes a shot at least. The beta hasn't begun yet, sheesh.

 

[Cmdr Bryston]

Nnooo.As an explorer myself,these changes are not needed.Exploration,(and i'm talking of people who enjoy spending time in the black,not just on the edges of the bubble) needs to be left alone,the ONLY problems with the current system are credits per hour and partially scanned systems.
If you start with ELW's at 10 mill and work down,that's the credits sorted,plus there needs to be a 100% bonus for scanning the full system,that solves the second problem.
Don't forget i am speaking as someone who enjoys going out exploring for at least 3 months at a time IRL,(I know CMDR's who have been out over a year!),and i don't need the extra hassle of probes,(which FDev said would be limited to 200 units),which on a long journey won't last very long,then i have to go material hunting,(more grind),to replenish them!

 

[cheesenbiscuits]

I suppose I thought this exploration update would be more than a framework patch, it would be the huge overhaul we've been waiting 4 years for, and would bring exploration to a point where it would stand on it's own until the next round of core gameplay improvements were needed.
Again, it's all personal POV. Some are happy, I see it as very limited in scope.

For years FD have been saying there are things to discover,now we stand a chance of finding something,i see it as potentially game changing from an explorers point of view.
We need to try it before we can come to any real conclusions,at the very least i think it's going down the right road.

 

[Thalikor]

Looking back at previous threads on exploration, here's what I was saying 2 years ago...

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...red-systems!?p=4588449&viewfull=1#post4588449



Man, talk about predicting the future :/

Couldn't agree more. And to all the people in the "lets wait and see!" crowd, by then, with Fdev's record, it's too late. At least we saved the KWS, R.I.P. ADS/Hours wasted sifting through signals to find out it's 30 boring icy bodies in the 50th system in a row...

 

[babelfisch]

For years FD have been saying there are things to discover,now we stand a chance of finding something,i see it as potentially game changing from an explorers point of view.
We need to try it before we can come to any real conclusions,at the very least i think it's going down the right road.

Personally I'd like to see something similar to Ziggy's suggestion:

Keep everything as it's explained in FDEVs proposal. But also add a system map that shows the location of electromagnetic emissions. This map would need to be like an orrey map that you can move / zoom in and out but only shows coloured spheres / energy hotspots with some fancy animations that aren't easy to read. So you would see if a system got some interesting constellations but need to do the new scanner mini game to find them.

I can see how it would be way too much effort to add this within the next two months though.

 

[Xtopher SI]

There are a fair few long-time explorers vocally expressing their disappointment of the planned removal of the Advanced Discovery Scanner's blanket instascan, thereby removing their ability to immediately determine whether a system held any personally-interesting formations/sights. Currently they would use this to either further investigate and explore closer, or skip on to the next star system.

After arrival in a new star system, what many of those explorers seek is quick high-level information on the planetary bodies:

• The number and layout of planetary bodies
• Distances between them
• Their types, i.e. rare (ELW, WW, HMC) or common (ice, rocky)
• Whether ringed or not

Back during Beta 2.2 this was introduced to mostly negative feedback:



I propose this is re-introduced, with the system map populated with a full-layout of black, hollow circles, following a honk of the revamped Discovery Scanner. As this was a feature previously introduced for Beta 2.2, I guess it can be re-introduced without requiring much in the way of development resources (compared to a new feature).

As the Discovery Scanner can pinpoint the location of frequency signals, it is feasible to assume it can determine how many separate signals, their layout, distances between them, and whether they're are ringed or not. And then generate a "low fidelity", visual representation of the detected frequencies.

Further information could be provided in the system map's sidebar, displaying the approximate breakdown of the system's planetary bodies.

Here is my very bad mspaint draft based on the above image:



The percentages of the Estimated Breakdown would be very loosely based on the pre-determined data in the Stellar Forge. The goal being to hint that an interesting, high-value world will exist there. If the makeup of a pre-determined system is 3 ELWs among a total of 8 bodies (including main star), then the Earth-Likes percentage range would be relatively high, e.g. 10-40% (indicating between 1 and 3 ELWs exist in the system).

Selecting an unscanned world (black, hollow circle) on the system map will give only four pieces of information:

• Ringed or not
• Distance to parent star
• Distance to parent/partner world where appropriate (a moon, or member of binary system)
• Approximated size and/or mass

As worlds are scanned using the planned new mechanics, each respective object in the system map will be resolved, and their details becoming accessible in the system map's sidebar. The estimated breakdown could change too (this feature could be implemented at a later date) as worlds are scanned and identified.

One possible future extension of the above mechanics could be for CMDRs who choose not to equip a Discovery Scanner at all: the system map could gradually populate with black, hollow circles, as the CMDR's ship comes within visual range of the respective planetary bodies.

Another future addition could be the highlighting on the system map the area of the habitable zone for each star, once it has been respectively scanned of course. This could further assist explorers in "scientifically" determining whether a star system could support life (via an Earth Like world for example).

Definitely agree with this. It pretty much caters for both sides of opinion. More or less how I would like it myself.

I think the new recommended exploration changes are kind of jumping from one extreme of the current system of having pretty much most of the information you need immediately to determine whether to explore a system or not to a new extreme of having very little information and requiring you to examine each body one by one to determine its worth. I am very impressed by the new features but it's gonna require some fine tuning for good gameplay. Hope they are reading this forum...

 

[Ziljan]

There are a fair few long-time explorers vocally expressing their disappointment of the planned removal of the Advanced Discovery Scanner's blanket instascan, thereby removing their ability to immediately determine whether a system held any personally-interesting formations/sights. Currently they would use this to either further investigate and explore closer, or skip on to the next star system.

After arrival in a new star system, what many of those explorers seek is quick high-level information on the planetary bodies:

• The number and layout of planetary bodies
• Distances between them
• Their types, i.e. rare (ELW, WW, HMC) or common (ice, rocky)
• Whether ringed or not

Back during Beta 2.2 this was introduced to mostly negative feedback:



I propose this is re-introduced, with the system map populated with a full-layout of black, hollow circles, following a honk of the revamped Discovery Scanner. As this was a feature previously introduced for Beta 2.2, I guess it can be re-introduced without requiring much in the way of development resources (compared to a new feature).

As the Discovery Scanner can pinpoint the location of frequency signals, it is feasible to assume it can determine how many separate signals, their layout, distances between them, and whether they're are ringed or not. And then generate a "low fidelity", visual representation of the detected frequencies.

Further information could be provided in the system map's sidebar, displaying the approximate breakdown of the system's planetary bodies.

Here is my very bad mspaint draft based on the above image:



The percentages of the Estimated Breakdown would be very loosely based on the pre-determined data in the Stellar Forge. The goal being to hint that an interesting, high-value world will exist there. If the makeup of a pre-determined system is 3 ELWs among a total of 8 bodies (including main star), then the Earth-Likes percentage range would be relatively high, e.g. 10-40% (indicating between 1 and 3 ELWs exist in the system).

Selecting an unscanned world (black, hollow circle) on the system map will give only four pieces of information:

• Ringed or not
• Distance to parent star
• Distance to parent/partner world where appropriate (a moon, or member of binary system)
• Approximated size and/or mass

As worlds are scanned using the planned new mechanics, each respective object in the system map will be resolved, and their details becoming accessible in the system map's sidebar. The estimated breakdown could change too (this feature could be implemented at a later date) as worlds are scanned and identified.

One possible future extension of the above mechanics could be for CMDRs who choose not to equip a Discovery Scanner at all: the system map could gradually populate with black, hollow circles, as the CMDR's ship comes within visual range of the respective planetary bodies.

Another future addition could be the highlighting on the system map the area of the habitable zone for each star, once it has been respectively scanned of course. This could further assist explorers in "scientifically" determining whether a star system could support life (via an Earth Like world for example).

This player proposed alternative system doesn't work, because if an item is selectable to be scanned then this completely voids the purpose and mechanic of both the energy distribution filter and scanning distance filter. This is really no different than the current system except that we'll get a useless energy graphic that auto-cleans itself as we fly around the system, once again just pointing at things to scan them.

There is no compromise system. Either we have the current system with black spheres on the honk and some pointless new graphics, or we actually try to discover and find new things.