PvP and Open Play Should be Required to Unlock Engineers!

[Nadreck]

I think there's a logical fallacy in play here. Not sure what it's called, I'll call it a "category error".

As I understand it, the OP is arguing "PvP enthusiasts have to do other stuff to get access to Engineers, so non-PvP players should have to do OUR stuff too".

The fallacy is the notion that there are only two activities in the game: PvP and "everything else". There are MANY different activities that ALL players do if they wish to unlock various Engineers. PvP enthusiasts aren't being treated more "unfairly" than other players are. For instance, a decent FSD and thrusters are handy for a trader, but can't be obtained just through trading.

 

[KRONFROMGALVATRON]

You wouldn't be if you were a new player.

It's like saying to a 10 year old kid, "Get in there and get your brains bashed in by Mike Tyson for 5 minutes and then you can go out and play and have fun."

And this is absolutely the counter-point. How to make the fights well matched and not just seal clubbing. It’s why it may actually not be a good idea.

 

[Marvin the Martian]

How to make the fights well matched and not just seal clubbing.

That is easy.

Leave the game just like it is. Give me time to learn the game, get some experience, unlock some engineering and learn to handle myself against the AI. Then I'll venture out into the public realm, try to join a fleet and go out and mix it up.

At least I'll have a reasonable fighting chance, not just obliterated by someone whose engineered guns cut me in half in less than a second while their engineered shields make them invincible.

 

[Jack Winter]

You hit the nail on the head here. There is no accomodation for PVP players in the game. That's why we're always trying to steal your thing.
"Make BGS open only."
"Make Powerplay open only."
"Make CQC but we can bring our own ships."

Deep down we just want to be included. We want FDev to give us something to do. But as soon as a PVP activity is introduced into the game, solo players are going to cry foul. They paid for the game and they want to be able to do everything in solo, even PVP.

What I don't understand is the fun in seal clubbing, pad blocking or suicidewinding.. If the fun is playing against other online players, then why not play CQC or go to San Tu and play against other commanders interested in PvP.

 

[Robert Maynard]

And this is absolutely the counter-point. How to make the fights well matched and not just seal clubbing. It’s why it may actually not be a good idea.

Not even CQC manages that with a limited selection of loadouts....

 

[St0rmFury]

What I don't understand is the fun in seal clubbing, pad blocking or suicidewinding.. If the fun is playing against other online players, then why not play CQC or go to San Tu and play against other commanders interested in PvP.

Simple, they derive pleasure from others' grief.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Simple, they derive pleasure from others' grief.

Those for whom fun is parasitic (of other players) in nature aren't much fun to play with - thankfully, there's no need to play with them in this game.

 

[ethelred]

That is easy.

Leave the game just like it is. Give me time to learn the game, get some experience, unlock some engineering and learn to handle myself against the AI. Then I'll venture out into the public realm, try to join a fleet and go out and mix it up.

At least I'll have a reasonable fighting chance, not just obliterated by someone whose engineered guns cut me in half in less than a second while their engineered shields make them invincible.

Engineering does add a ridiculous level to PvP but the AI is so woeful and in many ways gives players a false sense of security the step up from PvE to PvP is massive.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Engineering does add a ridiculous level to PvP but the AI is so woeful and in many ways gives players a false sense of security the step up from PvE to PvP is massive.

... and the AI for NPCs needs to be set at a level that accommodates players of all skill levels, players who may well be flying non-combat ships (as only one Elite rank requires ship-to-ship combat).

Even before engineering was introduced there was a gulf between ships optimised for combat and ships optimised for other roles - on top of the gulf between player combat skill, or lack thereof.

 

[Slamdance_Kozmopolis]

The OP wants to be a seal clubber not a seal

Again, that's not it at all. I just want solo traders to feel as annoyed as I did when I had to trade with 50 commodities markets to unlock Lei Cheung to access shield upgrades!

Everyone should be forced to do SOMETHING they don't like or want to do! That's just good game design! And, I only want what's best for YOU and Elite Dangerous...

What's wrong with that?

Remember, engineering is still optional.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Everyone should be forced to do SOMETHING they don't like or want to do! That's just good game design! And, I only want what's best for YOU and Elite Dangerous...

... and which activities players need to engage in for particular unlocks is for Frontier to decide, not players.

What's wrong with that?

Some players have been seeking to force other players to require to engage in PvP for "reasons" for years - this remains a game where PvP is entirely optional (and console players without premium platform access can't play in either of the multi-player game modes).

 

[K Olley]

Remember, engineering is still optional.

That is why even with all the time I have played that I have not bothered to unlock all the engineers in Horizons and none in Odyssey.

 

[Slamdance_Kozmopolis]

... and the AI for NPCs needs to be set at a level that accommodates players of all skill levels, players who may well be flying non-combat ships (as only one Elite rank requires ship-to-ship combat).

Even before engineering was introduced there was a gulf between ships optimised for combat and ships optimised for other roles - on top of the gulf between player combat skill, or lack thereof.

This is a good argument against min/maxing.
Engineering also makes PvE combat a lot more accessible for different skill levels.

As far as I'm concerned, this is the best space combat game ever made. It's a shame FDev chose to lock it behind such an unpleasant grind-wall.

But, they did! So, COMPULSERY PvP FOR EVERYONE!

 

[Slamdance_Kozmopolis]

Some players have been seeking to force other players to require to engage in PvP for "reasons" for years - this remains a game where PvP is entirely optional (and console players without premium platform access can't play in either of the multi-player game modes).

See, I wouldn't have a problem with that IF mining, trading, and exploring were optional too. But they're required, if you want to engineer your ships. I'm just pointing this out.

I'm actually against forcing players to do anything they don't want to do. I wish FDev felt the same.

 

[aRJay]

Again, that's not it at all. I just want solo traders to feel as annoyed as I did when I had to trade with 50 commodities markets to unlock Lei Cheung to access shield upgrades!

Everyone should be forced to do SOMETHING they don't like or want to do! That's just good game design! And, I only want what's best for YOU and Elite Dangerous...

What's wrong with that?

Remember, engineering is still optional.

Just because some commanders are traders does not mean that some of the other unlocks aren't annoying for them.

Better game design would surely be to make more of the players happy rather than the reverse, suggesting otherwise makes you sound spiteful at best.

 

[Robert Maynard]

See, I wouldn't have a problem with that IF mining, trading, and exploring were optional too. But they're required, if you want to engineer your ships. I'm just pointing this out.

I'm actually against forcing players to do anything they don't want to do. I wish FDev felt the same.

There are already combat requirements to unlocking particular Engineers....

 

[TobiasFuzz]

Again, that's not it at all. I just want solo traders to feel as annoyed as I did

Thats a bad Charakter trait

 

[Slamdance_Kozmopolis]

There are already combat requirements to unlocking particular Engineers....

Sure. It takes about 15minutes to unlock Tod "The Blaster" in a sidewinder.

It took me about 10+ hours to build a mining python and mine 500 tons of ore to unlock Selene Jean the armoring machine! How 'bout a little parity?

 

[CMDR Ylion]

this whole idea doesn´t even make sense imo, because pvp is just another way of shooting at things,
something that already can be done in solo mode.
it is not a unique activity.
open ist just another mode and has absolutely nothing to do with the activity


if you have to deliberately mix the terms gameplay and gamemode to even have a point, your initial idea is maybe not as good as you thought

 

[Slamdance_Kozmopolis]

ED is a terrible game when you want to do PvP space combat. There are much better games for that. So if you play ED because you want combat PvP, you are playing the wrong game.

Care to name that game?