PvP and Open Play Should be Required to Unlock Engineers!

[Jack Schitt]

Well it actually doesn't have anything to do with PvP. I merely suggested requiring PvP because I know a lot of people really don't like it, in the exact same way I don't like mining and trading.

And on the surface that would be a fine argument if mining, trading and PVP were all recognised in-game activities, but they're not.

Mining, trading and combat are activities, and the game requires players to engage in all of them in order to unlock all of the benefits of Engineers. All of these activities can be undertaken in the presence or absence of other players, a choice that is down to the individual. It seems as though what you're requesting is that some of that choice be taken away, but only for one activity?

There's also an implicit assumption that all players who don't like PVP are fine with all of the other things you don't like, which is statistically unlikely. Under your proposal, players who equally dislike mining, trading and PVP would have to "feel" 33% more "pain" than you. That doesn't seem fair either.

I understand why you chose PVP for this because it carries a lot of emotional baggage but it is, as others have already pointed out, a category error in this argument.

That's not to say it's not a valid request despite the flaw in the logic. History would strongly suggest it's a futile one, but FD aren't above surprising us with seemingly out-of-left-field decisions so you never know. But it seems vanishingly unlikely. More likely to succeed is the underlying request that Engineer unlock requirements be more logically aligned with the rewards offered. That also has a lot of frustrating history attached to it, but the reasoning is more sound.

Out of curiosity, how would you feel if your 5 PVP match unlock requirement were to be introduced but could be carried out in Private Groups as well as Open?

 

[ethelred]

Nope - PvP being entirely optional means that the game does not need to force players to become skilled enough to engage in it.

... and if players want to engage in a PvP only feature to hone their skills there's already CQC....

That doesn't make any sense.

It's optional yes, but the game ought to prepare you for it?

To not prepare the player for a feature, optional or otherwise, is bad design? You don't agree?

CQC does not feature asymmetric combat (unless musketeer is on the other team, lol) or interdiction or avoiding interdiction etc so is hardly a substitute.

 

[TobiasFuzz]

Or a friend who is willing to let you repeatedly blow them up.

FDev would also need to implement a workable solution for combat logging if the rank were to be based solely on PvP kills.

In fact, killing human players does not bring progress for combat rank at all.

 

[Robert Maynard]

It's optional yes, but the game ought to prepare you for it?

If such preparation were also optional, e.g. inside POIs, then there'd be little argument.

To not prepare the player for a feature, optional or otherwise, is bad design? You don't agree?

CQC does not feature asymmetric combat (unless musketeer is on the other team, lol) or interdiction or avoiding interdiction etc so is hardly a substitute.

CQC is there to hone PvP skills - it's up to players to use it, or not. Attempting to avoid player interdiction seems to be futile - all the advice is to submit and (hope to) escape.

 

[Slamdance_Kozmopolis]

This game is full of unpleasant redundant activities as gates. How many times have you relogged at HGSS's, Guardian sites, Dav's Hope, etc.? Too many I'd bet. I know I have. There is always meta optimization for these things. Traders aren't idiots. They'll play in Open while they're doing their 5K Palin jaunt, or completing their ExoBio climb. You'll never see them during that 20 hour mandatory Open window.

But seeing as you are all about fairness, I'd be down to do 20 hours of Open (heck I've done thousands) as an engineer gate. Just don't cry when you're blocked.

​

See, this is the actual topic I'd like to discuss.

I don't do HGSS's and I most definitely don't do Guardian sites because they are so unpleasant and tedious. I avoid cheesing at Dav's hope too. The thread is all about how bad it is to require players to do unpleasant, redundant activities that they don't like to do.

FDev needs to stop doing this to players as it is a HUGE driver of frustration and general dissatisfaction with the game.


I want FDev to rebalance engineering like the said they would. That's it.

This thread isn't a clever ploy to replenish my baby seal supply. It's a clever ploy to never be forced to go mining or trading again! Honest...

 

[Marvin the Martian]

There's also an implicit assumption that all players who don't like PVP are fine with all of the other things you don't like, which is statistically unlikely. Under your proposal, players who equally dislike mining, trading and PVP would have to "feel" 33% more "pain" than you. That doesn't seem fair either.

Basically, what it boils down to is that he wants to force other people to play his game his way rather than allowing them to play their own game their own way.

He's selfish. End of story.

 

[Rebel Yell]

Yes, why not.

 

[Brrokk]

See, this is the actual topic I'd like to discuss.

I don't do HGSS's and I most definitely don't do Guardian sites because they are so unpleasant and tedious. I avoid cheesing at Dav's hope too. The thread is all about how bad it is to require players to do unpleasant, redundant activities that they don't like to do.

FDev needs to stop doing this to players as it is a HUGE driver of frustration and general dissatisfaction with the game.


I want FDev to rebalance engineering like the said they would. That's it.

This thread isn't a clever ploy to replenish my baby seal supply. It's a clever ploy to never be forced to go mining or trading again! Honest...

Crumbs, I consider Guardian sites among the most atmospheric locations in the game. I still go back to them (and Dav's Hope) now and then, even though I don't need to unlock anything.

 

[Slamdance_Kozmopolis]

Basically, what it boils down to is that he wants to force other people to play his game his way rather than allowing them to play their own game their own way.

He's selfish. End of story.

No.
What it boils down to is that I want EVERYONE to be able to play their own game exactly the way they want.

You think my PvP suggestion is bad?

You're correct. It IS bad. Just as bad as requiring me to mine, explore & trade, when all I want to do is combat. Both are obnoxious and unreasonable.

Crumbs, I consider Guardian sites among the most atmospheric locations in the game. I still go back to them (and Dav's Hope) now and then, even though I don't need to unlock anything.

Sure, but I don't need to do 15 laps around one of those sites to appreciate them. As a matter of fact...

 

[gorankar]

Let's try to make this simple.
Fdev has stated that they want all modes to be equal.
PvP is only available in one mode, that console players must pay extra for.
So............. PvP is not, and almost certainly will not ever be, a requirement for any meaningful in game rewards. PvP is it's own thing that is available. PvP falls under combat. Combat is part of the unlocks and mat gathering needed for engineering unlocks. Oh, well, crap, real players don't even drop mats do they?

The last time I was force to kill someone that I am pretty sure watched a "Vulture kills Cutter video" and decided to try it on me, (clearly not realizing it takes engineering, skill, being staged, and/or a being total dunce to die to a Vulture in a combat fit/engineered Cutter), did not drop any mats. That was a while ago though.

Engineering is a grind, that's for sure, so was unlocking Fed/Imp ships and systems. So was doing the pledge merry go round for prizmos, pack hounds, and the other useful PP unlocks. Heading out to guardian and thargoid space for those unlock was, well actually that was pretty cool, but some didn't care for it. I did them, I see no real reason to change the game now because some folks want an easy button. Unless you want to just have all unlocks be money based. 20 hours grinding credits is the same as 20 hours grinding mats/data as far as I am concerned..

 

[Marvin the Martian]

You're correct. It IS bad. Just as bad as requiring me to mine, explore & trade, when all I want to do is combat.

Nobody is MAKING you do anything. You choose to do it.

But you want to MAKE other people do things they don't want to do only because you feel like you're special and since you're SUFFERING you think others should too.

You strike me as the kind of person that would smoke 5 packs of cigarettes a day, get cancer, and then try to make everybody else take up smoking so they'll get it too.

You don't like playing the game? Don't. Go play something else. It's that simple.

 

[Slamdance_Kozmopolis]

Unless you want to just have all unlocks be money based. 20 hours grinding credits is the same as 20 hours grinding mats/data as far as I am concerned..

Your concerns are misplaced.

If I could spend 20hrs doing what I want to do to unlock engineers during my limited recreational time (not grinding), that would be 20hrs of combat and 0hrs of trading & mining. Those are not the same things at all.

edited for clairity (I hope)

 

[Northpin]

Your concerns are misplaced.

If I could spend 20hrs doing what I want to do during my limited recreational time (not grinding), that would be 20hrs of combat and 0hrs of trading & mining. Yes, please.

Have you tried CQC? Pure combat, no grinding.

Elite is about having a career in the Elite universe. With emphasis on career
So not exactly insta hop and fight, unless you're prepared to do it in an e-rated sidewinder.

 

[Rhaazerus Orzhov]

I pretty much exclusively play in Open, and I'll just say . . . this is a terrible idea.

 

[Brrokk]

No.
What it boils down to is that I want EVERYONE to be able to play their own game exactly the way they want.

You think my PvP suggestion is bad?

You're correct. It IS bad. Just as bad as requiring me to mine, explore & trade, when all I want to do is combat. Both are obnoxious and unreasonable.


Sure, but I don't need to do 15 laps around one of those sites to appreciate them. As a matter of fact...

No, you don't want everyone to play how they want. That's rather the point of your suggestion. But you know that.

The requirement to mine, explore and trade is built in to the game. If you find it obnoxious and unreasonable, you're being irrational if you continue playing.

Your PvP suggestion isn't built into the game. It's an attempt by you to adversely affect the game experience of other players, which would be obnoxious and unreasonable if it had any chance of success, but as things are it's just rather silly.

 

[gorankar]

Your concerns are misplaced.

If I could spend 20hrs doing what I want to do during my limited recreational time (not grinding), that would be 20hrs of combat and 0hrs of trading & mining. Yes, please.

I don't really have any concerns. I don't foresee Fdev changing engineering the way you want. If doing nothing annoys the fewest people, doing nothing is what is likely to happen. Fdev is good at doing nothing when nothing is really needed..

 

[Slamdance_Kozmopolis]

Your PvP suggestion isn't built into the game. It's an attempt by you to adversely affect the game experience of other players, which would be obnoxious and unreasonable if it had any chance of success, but as things are it's just rather silly.

Dude, the entire point of the thread IS RIGHT THERE. You typed it out, but you still refuse to understand it.

 

[Brrokk]

Deleted - I didn't want to get involved in this thread.

 

[Slamdance_Kozmopolis]

I don't really have any concerns. I don't foresee Fdev changing engineering the way you want. If doing nothing annoys the fewest people, doing nothing is what is likely to happen. Fdev is good at doing nothing when nothing is really needed..

If FDev isn't going to change engineering, their community manager should not have posted this:

Alternate Gathering Methods​

We appreciate that the repetitive nature of material gathering may not be for everyone. Some have called for ways to earn materials while engaging in the specific types of content they already enjoy.

We'd like to hear your feedback on the idea of unique missions offered by Engineers themselves. These could be repeatable and offer materials specific to the upgrades offered by the Engineer who issues them. Let us know what you think of this idea and how many materials this might offer relative to gathering the materials manually.

Another idea is to allow materials to be "bought" with items that are not obtainable at Commodities Markets. This could include things such as Exploration Data, Bounty Vouchers, Void Opals and Thargoid Hearts and would allow players to earn materials while playing within their chosen disciplines.

Because that's all I want. Go argue with Bruce.

 

[gorankar]

CM's say a lot of things they regret, a lot of things that never come to pass, a lot of things that some people read way more into than they should, and even Sandro on us.
Good luck though. You getting an easy button for mats/data/unlocks does not really effect me. If it comes to pass, I will just assume everyone is using premium ammo all the time and just stay out of open. What little problem that I might have adding a quick-n-easy mode for people that don't want to put in the work, disappears with that one little trick.