PvP PvP griefing analogy to explain why it's not legit to some people

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(I apologise in advance to the mods if this is in the wrong place as I am not sure where exactly to put it)

Having some good PMs with people and thought of an analogy (not perfect but close enough) that hopefully sheds some light on why I and possibly others dislike griefers and griefing so much (jn any game)

Football (soccer for the yanks) match:

Tackling is allowed and within the rules of the "game".

player A (is casually playing, wearing t shirt jeans and trainers) has possession of the ball.
player B (fully kitted out in shin pads and studded football boots) is coming in hard to tackle because they love tackling hard, they
enjoy it.
Player B smacks into player A hard in a harsh tackle and in the process injures player A.
Player B professes innocence saying it's all within the "rules" of the sport and player A was ill equipped.
player B just cannot comprehend why people are getting angry about the tackle.

player A wants to play football with other people not alone and doesn't know enough people to play "privately"
player B has complete lack of sportsmanship/empathy.

player B = Elite (and ANY online game) griefer

also factor in within the confines of Elites gameplay Player A could be very young and/or disabled in some way and Player B has no way at all of knowing this.

Elites Open problem is the HUGELY disparate skill levels and equipment levels and the lack of any sort of rulesets of "sportsmanship".

edit (actually the analogy works better within the confines of harder sports like American football, Ice hockey etc where equipment levels are a major factor)
 
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Robert Maynard

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Moved.

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(I apologise in advance to the mods if this is in the wrong place as I am not sure where exactly to put it)

Having some good PMs with people and thought of an analogy (not perfect but close enough) that hopefully sheds some light on why I and possibly others dislike griefers and griefing so much (jn any game)

Football (soccer for the yanks) match:

Tackling is allowed and within the rules of the "game".

player A (is casually playing, wearing t shirt jeans and trainers) has possession of the ball.
player B (fully kitted out in shin pads and studded football boots) is coming in hard to tackle because they love tackling hard, they
enjoy it.
Player B smacks into player A hard in a harsh tackle and in the process injures player A.
Player B professes innocence saying it's all within the "rules" of the sport and player A was ill equipped.
player B just cannot comprehend why people are getting angry about the tackle.

player A wants to play football with other people not alone and doesn't know enough people to play "privately"
player B has complete lack of sportsmanship/empathy.

player B = Elite (and ANY online game) griefer

also factor in within the confines of Elites gameplay Player A could be very young and/or disabled in some way and Player B has no way at all of knowing this.

Elites Open problem is the HUGELY disparate skill levels and equipment levels and the lack of any sort of rulesets of "sportsmanship".

edit (actually the analogy works better within the confines of harder sports like American football, Ice hockey etc where equipment levels are a major factor)
The Analogy is flawed.

It's more like this :

Football or Soccer match...
Tackling is allowed and within the rules of the "game" under very specific conditions.

Player A (is playing wearing appropriate sports equipment) has possession of the ball.
Player B (fully kitted out in military gear) is apparently coming in hard to tackle.
Player B pulls a military Auto-Shotgun and fires a burst of 28 rounds at Player A, instantly killing that Player because Player B loves doing that.
Player A had the ball but Player B has no interest in picking it up, only intended to kill. In fact it's not visible that Player B ever had any intent to play.
Player B professes innocence saying it's all within "what's possible" in the sport and player A was ill equipped.
Crowd labels Player B a lunatic murderer and calls the behavior as insane.
Referee does issue a red card and Cops are called. They're too poorly equipped to handle the murderer though and take over 2 Minutes to arrive, so Player B can easily leave the Stadium, which that Player does.
Player B just cannot comprehend why people are getting angry about the kill.

Player A wants to play football with other people not alone.
Player B has complete lack of sportsmanship/empathy acts like a sociopathic psycho.
Referee and Cops are powerless, existing laws are not enforced.

Player B = Elite (and ANY online game) griefer
 
Why is an analogy needed?

Griefers desire other players to have a bad time. This is not a nice thing to desire. Plus it's bad for the game, since the more people enjoy it, the better it is for the game.

That is why griefing is bad and detracts from the game.
how about the enjoyment of the players that like to blow up other players? how about the players that want to defend their PMF? How about the players that do Power Play seriously and kill only opposing powers' ships?
A clueless commander shopping for prismatic shield runs into a blockade in Cubeo and gets popped will think it was griefing, while it was a totally legit kill. But that commander will cry rivers about griefers...

How about dying with honor and taking it like a man? How about learning from your mistakes and trying to improve?
 
If we're going to look at this an exended analogy involving football is absolutley not going to cut it.

More like player A flies into a system with no means of surving any attack, Player B takes advantage of the mistakes made by player A and kills them.

Simples.

You might not like it, but thats how it is.

Simply put.. Don't fly through 'rarta with a wet paper bag of a ship and heres the shocker.. You wont get killed.

I've had enough of the "but I hate greeeeeeeeeeeefers" post.

Git gud and sop whining. This game has guns, unfortunatly for those of you who want a minmaxed puddle jumper, people use them, whih they are well within thier rights to do.

Bad. Luck. Son.
 
As had been said in maybe five different posts this week, griefing is harrassing a player.

Getting killed randomly is just PvP, unsoliicited PvP yes, but definatly not griefing. Seriously try using coriolis to uild a ship that doesnt fold instanteaneously and you'll have a much more enjoyable time in Elite and wont feel the need to once again demonise players for choosing to play a sandbox game in the way they choose simply because they dent your damn ego when you lose.
 
Why is an analogy needed?

Griefers desire other players to have a bad time. This is not a nice thing to desire. Plus it's bad for the game, since the more people enjoy it, the better it is for the game.

That is why griefing is bad and detracts from the game.
I agree.
It is not a difficult thing to understand. Griefing is always a negative thing.
The real problem is to determine what kind of actions should be considered griefing.
To me, in this case, the analogy is not helpful at all, as it has nothing in it I can relate with playing ED.

I have never in my life felt a need to grief or gank anyone, certainly not in a type of game like Elite.
For me griefing and ganking point to certain character flaws.
 
There's a couple of things to add to the analogy.

1. There is only one pitch and one ball in existence for all players regardless of ability or how seriously they play.
2. Everyone knows there is only one pitch and one ball.

How would you create a game that caters to all in this scenario?

Anyway, since there hasn't been a practical solution offered other than using more armour and shields, or using other game modes if you don't feel like risking being in that situation over the last few threads, it doesn't seem like this thread will put anything in a better place.

My last post on the subject since any comment about it just greases the wheels of the handcart on its way to hell.
 
There's a couple of things to add to the analogy.

1. There is only one pitch and one ball in existence for all players regardless of ability or how seriously they play.
2. Everyone knows there is only one pitch and one ball.

How would you create a game that caters to all in this scenario?

Anyway, since there hasn't been a practical solution offered other than using more armour and shields, or using other game modes if you don't feel like risking being in that situation over the last few threads, it doesn't seem like this thread will put anything in a better place.

My last post on the subject since any comment about it just greases the wheels of the handcart on its way to hell.
Hurling.
 
how about the enjoyment of the players that like to blow up other players? how about the players that want to defend their PMF? How about the players that do Power Play seriously and kill only opposing powers' ships?
A clueless commander shopping for prismatic shield runs into a blockade in Cubeo and gets popped will think it was griefing, while it was a totally legit kill. But that commander will cry rivers about griefers...

How about dying with honor and taking it like a man? How about learning from your mistakes and trying to improve?
How about reading a post? How about paying special attention to "Griefers desire other players to have a bad time. " How about not conflating Powerplay players with griefers? How about not conflating PMF players with griefers? How about not conflating players who put up a blockade with griefers.

You fellers always cry foul when others do this.

How about arguing with honor and reacting to the content of the short and crystal clear post you quoted?

Here it is again
"Griefers desire other players to have a bad time. This is not a nice thing to desire. Plus it's bad for the game, since the more people enjoy it, the better it is for the game.

That is why griefing is bad and detracts from the game. "

edit: and then I see you repped this post:
As had been said in maybe five different posts this week, griefing is harrassing a player.

Getting killed randomly is just PvP, unsoliicited PvP yes, but definatly not griefing.
Jesus wept. (Not directed at the content of above post, I agree with that content)
 
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In America when our version of "FOOTBALL" was starting out. Some player's devised various things to assist them in not getting hurt. Originally there was no mandated safty equipment as there is today; One simply utilize what they could. I mean compare the first versions of a football helmet to today's football helmet. In the days of old, helmets were not mandatory as they are today.

OPEN is basically the same, one can play there if one wants, but if one is ill equipped; One is going get hurt! One can play full contact football or one can play touch football. It's a matter of choice. But attempting to play football utilizing the touch version in a full contact game, is assine and one is going to get hurt!
 
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