PvP (Open) commanders not welcome on this forum?...

[Jimmysal]

The default setting on this forum is that "it's wrong to fire on another CMDR without their express consent."

Now based on what I've said so far, this might sound crazy but stick with me. It is wrong to fire on another CMDR without their consent. Unless they have a bounty on their head, they fight for a different power, they're on the other side from you in a CZ, or they just shot at you. Pirates, thieves, and murderers don't get a pass on their behavior from me, no. But if they cared about that, why would they listen to me? They're criminals and if one tries me I have to deal with them. But I can acknowledge that there is more nuance to PVP than most are willing to believe. I also see this forum as ranging from antagonistic to wary of PVP for the most part, or little to no representation of PVP at all.

 

[Cosmos]

It might be uncharitable, but many (not all of course) of the PVP-Pro-Bros I've met behave exactly like bots. Interdict, silence, pew-pew. The only noticeable difference is the purest, finest, sweetest RAEG that sometimes fills my luzbucket

Ah, so we are meant to jump through the never ending set of conditions (ala roleplay) that suit everyone (I've seen comments over the years, nothing satisfies..). Long ago people tried player on player pirating, the reaction was the same.

 

[Riverside]

This is the problem, the PvE fanatics won't compromise over anything. In fact all the 'compromises' have gone one way.

Not trolling, just not sure exactly what you mean here. Can you give an example or two?

Arguments of favouritism by the devs I could understand (but not necessarily agree with).

 

[Asp Explorer]

Ah, so we are meant to jump through the never ending set of conditions (ala roleplay) that suite everyone. Long ago people tried player on player pirating, the reaction was the same.

I apply no such conditions, I don't RP, others are free to do so or not as suits them. I've tried pirating too, and been pirated. Many peoples, if not most, reactions to lulzbunnies will always be the same. It's what makes them lulzbunnies

 

[xondk]

Ah, so we are meant to jump through the never ending set of conditions (ala roleplay) that suit everyone (I've seen comments over the years, nothing satisfies..). Long ago people tried player on player pirating, the reaction was the same.

How.....exactly did you get to that conclusion? no one is talking about role play or anything, just base your reason for attacking someone on in game, and not out of game reasons. Piracy is perfectly fine?
You seem entirely focused on dismissing stuff that you don't agree with? I hope I'm wrong, I'd love to try to understand your view point but you really aren't making it easy.

Note how there are "combat logging is a problem" posts, and it is, but the abundance of combat logging could maybe be caused by griefers, and to avoid them, people combat log quickly. Maybe if we got a hand on the griefing problem, less people would combat log? win win?

 

[Cosmos]

I apply no such conditions, I don't RP, others are free to do so or not as suits them. I've tried pirating too, and been pirated. Many peoples, if not most, reactions to lulzbunnies will always be the same. It's what makes them lulzbunnies

So your contribution to this discussion is lulzbunnies.. thats an intellectually solid position..

 

[Asp Explorer]

So your contribution to this discussion is lulzbunnies.. thats an intellectually solid position..

Actually it's lulzbuckets. Lulzbunnies contribute themselves.

 

[Cosmos]

How.....exactly did you get to that conclusion? no one is talking about role play or anything, just base your reason for attacking someone on in game, and not out of game reasons. Piracy is perfectly fine?
You seem entirely focused on dismissing stuff that you don't agree with? I hope I'm wrong, I'd love to try to understand your view point but you really aren't making it easy.

Note how there are "combat logging is a problem" posts, and it is, but the abundance of combat logging could maybe be caused by griefers, and to avoid them, people combat log quickly. Maybe if we got a hand on the griefing problem, less people would combat log? win win?

Comment was based upon many comments I've seen over the years.. i was attacked for 'no reason' and they didnt even say anything.. Then they drone on about asking for too much cargo, or not having a cargo scanner.. It goes on and on.

Re combat logging, that is cheating. And I'm not going to get into a debate about why people do it. They do it because they can to avoid a loss.

I don't accept there is a 'griefing' issue in this game.

 

[CATPAIN KIRK]

Will pick you up on this comment a bit more.. Yes they did remove the 'reason'... It was a cop out and I've long said the game would be richer and more interesting if they had factored in a more emergent approach.

That said its a trite and childish comment to say that it leaves people who are failed in some way doing what they do in game.

I dunno about you but the NPCs are bots as far as I am concerned and are tedious.. Player encounters have depth and meaning. Might sound odd but I wonder about the collective IQ of folks who'd rather encounter a bot than a real player.. Perhaps thats a bit unkind but whislt everyone has a view not all on this planet are afforded the same level of intelligence.

Unfortunately PvP is entirely pointless in the game as it stands and I'm forced to conclude people mostly PvP to prove their superiortity in a video game, which I in turn consider to be trite and childish in itself as long as the game itself doesn't provide any tangible reason to do it.

Yes - NPCs are bots and even for bots, they come dumbed down and pre-nerfed, which is a cross-platform issue imho - actually complained aboout the dumbed down and nerfed AI quite a lot.

Show me the player Anaconda that yields me half a mill in bounties within 30 seconds at the same risk as an NPC and I'll PvP all day.

 

[Riverside]

This is the problem, the PvE fanatics won't compromise over anything. In fact all the 'compromises' have gone one way.

In what way do you think the PvEers refuse to compromise Cosmos?

 

[Jimmysal]

Show me the player Anaconda that yields me half a mill in bounties within 30 seconds at the same risk as an NPC and I'll PvP all day.

Yeeeeeessssss. Player bounties could be 10% of cumulative destroyed ship's insurance and cargo value per week, plus a baseline moving average from your past week's bounties in some proportion. Make the $6M cap more like $200M. How do you prevent people from abusing it though? There needs to be a financial penalty to piracy and illicit activities, especially wanton murder other than a 6k slap on the wrist and free sidewinder ride. Plus people would exploit it if they could just trade big numbers with their buddies.

 

[Cosmos]

Unfortunately PvP is entirely pointless in the game as it stands and I'm forced to conclude people mostly PvP to prove their superiortity in a video game, which I in turn consider to be trite and childish in itself as long as the game itself doesn't provide any tangible reason to do it.

Yes - NPCs are bots and even for bots, they come dumbed down and pre-nerfed, which is a cross-platform issue imho - actually complained aboout the dumbed down and nerfed AI quite a lot.

Show me the player Anaconda that yields me half a mill in bounties within 30 seconds at the same risk as an NPC and I'll PvP all day.

You are right, it does seem a bit meaningless, yet attacking other players is fun and engaging them far more interesting and rewarding than shooting a bots. Its a pity Frontier made the game like they did, PvE grinds, crappy repetative missions, and tedious PvE gameplay. Grind grind grind..

They got the immersion right, the flight model, the environments etc.. spot on.. The gameplay is a tedious affair. I can't blame people for trying to find fun in a game they are invested in. Blaze our own trail and all that right?

I think we are on the same page overall..

 

[Riverside]

If you want to have fun in a way that involves other players they need to want to do that activity too. If I get 'mugged' by a pirate I want to either be entertained & take pity (beggar) or be the badass in my own little story & either fend them off or at least escape to tell the tale.

 

[kofeyh]

Just don't. The topic is toxic the attitudes to anything that doesn't toe the line of pacifist leads to toxic. On all sides. Because it's become sides. Not a combined charge to push frontier to do the right thing.

PVP people don't post here because the game has not correctly provided the framework and they become the scapegoat for frontiers failings (and they are failings) over the rule of law and application of sanction as punishment.

Every other day there is a thread on the evils of how being punished for speed is wrong. Which triggers yet more toxic hate. When something as trivial as speeding triggers endless walls of gripe, you know it's just an untenable situation.

Those who demand laws, sanction, refuse to abide by them. The cycle continues. Just don't.

Frontier built a game, included "PVP" as an aspect and then refused to adiquately account for it. The problem isn't the people. As certain personality types exist everywhere.

It's the failing of the game to adequately account for it. And if you can't recognise what the real issue is here - then there's nothing I can say and there's nothing that can be done to resolve that.

This is on frontier. It's always been on frontier. And they are happy to let the community self destruct and scream at each other, rather than evolve the platform. This is how it is. I wish to hell it wasn't.

But it is. Good day, commanders. May your holds be full of plenty, and your fights, grand. I'm just going to play the game.

 

[thirstyfish]

I know we have heated debates, but recent events sadden me.

I recently visited a PvP discord. I learned that they were hosting a PvP event. I asked why they weren't posting it here on the official forum, and the reply was:

"Forums aren't the place for pvp. Posters only cry about it, mods don't like it. Everyone who would be interested is on reddit or on the discord servers we posted to."

The one I spoke with didn't care to elaborate, so I'll just leave the comment here. But I'm genuinely surprised that the official forum isn't considered the goto platform for all who play Elite: Dangerous.

Maybe I'm just unaware of the importance of reddit and discord. Or that this forum was considered toxic by PvPers. I asked if it would be frowned upon if I shared the event here, and got no reply. Consent through silence I guess. So here's a link. It sounds like fun:

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/5orehu/event_small_ship_pvp_event_this_saturday/

See you in the black commanders.

(talk about a divided community... )

Its partially because of the perception that PvPers are toxic in open mode. I can't say anything about the people you were on with, but there are groups and individuals out there (you know who you are) who are quite toxic to other players in the game. Those groups and individuals are the entire reason a lot of players leave open for private groups and solo mode.

Perception is reality after all.

 

[Red Anders]

But events such as the one I linked to in my OP should surely be considered cornerstones of the official forum, no?

Very much so, it sounds like a fun event organised by players, for players. Pretty much the cornerstone of online gaming.

Having said that, your opening post set the context of the discussion. That's not a criticism, just an observation - when I look at a thread I read the OP and see what points they are making before replying to them.

If this thread had said 'Hey guys, for anyone who enjoys organised fun pvp there's an event organised for this Saturday - just trying to get some players together to have some laughs in cheap non-engineered ships. There's even a hull tank Hauler demolition derby, what more could you ask for!' you'd have probably got replies and nothing else.

As it is though, it came across as if you were expecting to get raged at and that in turn set the agenda for many of the subsequent posts.

I've seen very few players on here who would have anything negative to say about a pvp tournament organised specifically for players who want to participate in pvp, the vast majority of the moaning comes from players who aren't able to accept that playing in open means that they are playing with people who do not require any additional consent in order to attack them.

You'd definitely have players who just aren't interested in a pvp event. You'd even have some players who would feel the need to publicly state their lack of interest due to a mistaken belief that someone cares. The only people who would actually attack you for even posting it though would be the flat-out triggered cranks who can't even read the letters 'pvp' without having an attack of the vapours and coming out with some hilarious terrorism analogy or something and frankly, I doubt whether even the people who are lucky enough to share a living space with them give much credence to their raving, let alone the even halfway reasonable and intelligent people on here.

 

[Red Anders]

Comment was based upon many comments I've seen over the years.. i was attacked for 'no reason' and they didnt even say anything.. Then they drone on about asking for too much cargo, or not having a cargo scanner.. It goes on and on.

I don't accept there is a 'griefing' issue in this game.

Statement 1 is factually correct. Statement 2 is not. The problem with your post (even though seriously, I can see why and how you got there) is that statement 1 is not a proof of statement 2. Regardless of how many people you have seen say 'I'm not in a combat build!' or 'I'm just delivering stuff for the CG!' or (a favourite from another game too this) 'BUT I WAS ONLY MINING!' that doesn't mean there isn't griefing in this game. It just means that those players weren't experiencing it.

Re combat logging, that is cheating. And I'm not going to get into a debate about why people do it. They do it because they can to avoid a loss.

It is and as I've said before, to the amazement of people who can't get their head round how I can be strongly anti-griefing (genuine griefing) and yet advocate bans for combat loggers, it's really quite simple. Combat logging is against the rules. Killing a player in open, no matter how ill-equipped they are for combat, is not against the rules. It might well be lame but the rules allow lame gameplay. Nobody has to like that, but they do have to accept it, or accept that if they don't they may have to face other consequences. Lobbying to change the rules is fine but taking an independent decision to ignore them isn't.

 

[karl napf der abwaschbare]

There are for sure some very outspoken members in the forum with very definite opinions. But in my experience this is a minority and things a mostly quite civil and welcoming. I haven't been around that long, but don't remember any PvP events announcements being shot down. Any examples?

Probably also depends on the kind of event. I would guess an event like "Let's meet in this out of the way system and fight it out to the last man standing" wouldn't attract too much controversy. On the other hand an event like "Let's meet in Lave and see who can kill the most Newbies in 1h" might receive a rather more critical response ;-)

 

[Martian Successor]

Sources where he did it personally? Just curious, but I haven't read any of those statements.

Did a quick Google search out of curiosity and found this thread with a video of David Braben commenting on PvP, greifing, etc.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...-Braben-thinks-about-PvP-and-PvE-and-griefing

Haven't watched the whole video as not got the time right now but he opens with how griefing is a problem that happens with online PvP.

 

[Ziljan]

Very much so, it sounds like a fun event organised by players, for players. Pretty much the cornerstone of online gaming.

Having said that, your opening post set the context of the discussion. That's not a criticism, just an observation - when I look at a thread I read the OP and see what points they are making before replying to them.

If this thread had said 'Hey guys, for anyone who enjoys organised fun pvp there's an event organised for this Saturday - just trying to get some players together to have some laughs in cheap non-engineered ships. There's even a hull tank Hauler demolition derby, what more could you ask for!' you'd have probably got replies and nothing else.

As it is though, it came across as if you were expecting to get raged at and that in turn set the agenda for many of the subsequent posts.

I've seen very few players on here who would have anything negative to say about a pvp tournament organised specifically for players who want to participate in pvp, the vast majority of the moaning comes from players who aren't able to accept that playing in open means that they are playing with people who do not require any additional consent in order to attack them.

You'd definitely have players who just aren't interested in a pvp event. You'd even have some players who would feel the need to publicly state their lack of interest due to a mistaken belief that someone cares. The only people who would actually attack you for even posting it though would be the flat-out triggered cranks who can't even read the letters 'pvp' without having an attack of the vapours and coming out with some hilarious terrorism analogy or something and frankly, I doubt whether even the people who are lucky enough to share a living space with them give much credence to their raving, let alone the even halfway reasonable and intelligent people on here.

Except that when people post positive stuff like this it still gets shouted down and derided. Even when the Devs post about online Open events, there is still forum hate against PVP and Open.

I would say the OP has a reason to bring up this issue, since so many PVP posters have been driven away from the forum by the toxic atmosphere.